Will You Help Me With My Next Film? ...a request from Michael Moore

[Idog1976]

Nice try. I was an adjunct professor for several years. And I know 14 teachers off the top of my head. Six in elementary school, three in Jr. High and five in high school. That doesn't count the dozens of friends of mine that teach in college, nor the high school counselors, vice-principals or principals I also know.



Disprove my contention then. Otherwise, it's just your opinion.



Boy, that's tough for a union job. Welcome to the real world. Out here, it's a lot harder than that.



Do you need a hanky? I've taught plenty of classes, and not just to people who believe everything I say. I've also guest lectured HS economics classes. Golly, 120 people five whole days a week? It's called a job. You get paid for it. If you don't like it, quit. If you want more respect, go elsewhere for it. It must be a hard thing to grasp, but the only thing you're owed is a paycheck.

And a nice attempt at a Jesus complex with the "I might be the only stable person in their life", but something tells me you've watched one too many episodes of "Welcome Back, Kotter".

Your lack of respect for teachers is sad. I will feel bad for you when Commercial Real Estate unwinds over the next 12 months because you will want our sympathy then. Not sure why you have such a bitter hatred of all things on the left it's just strange to me.

 

[maxiep]

Your lack of respect for teachers is sad.

I don't have a lack of respect for teachers. I think they do necessary work. However, I'm not going to put them up on a pedestal because they deal with children. I've known too many mediocre people who ended up in the profession.

I will feel bad for you when Commercial Real Estate unwinds over the next 12 months because you will want our sympathy then.

I don't know where you've been, but commercial real estate is already in the shitter. I'm not looking for sympathy. It's offered the greatest buying opportunity I've seen since the Resolution Trust Corporation was in business.

Not sure why you have such a bitter hatred of all things on the left it's just strange to me.

Because the Left seems to be the home where results don't matter, only intentions. And my opinion of the Left isn't based on feelings, it's based on thought. I'm neither bitter nor filled with hatred toward the Left. I just believe the philosophy to be bumfuzzled.

 

[Idog1976]

I don't know where you've been, but commercial real estate is already in the shitter. I'm not looking for sympathy. It's offered the greatest buying opportunity I've seen since the Resolution Trust Corporation was in business.

Things I've read say that it will get much worse over the next 12+ months for commercial Real Estate, as in significantly worse. Buying now is what they call "catching a falling knife" the deals will only get better assuming you aren't wiped out in the interim. This is NOTHING like the Resolution Trust era in that America is in FAR, FAR deeper shit.

I don't have a lack of respect for teachers. I think they do necessary work. However, I'm not going to put them up on a pedestal because they deal with children. I've known too many mediocre people who ended up in the profession.

The teachers thing is kind of silly as there are mediocre people at every level even president of the US. I don't put them on a pedestal. A number of your comments showed a definite lack of respect.

I think that in combination with things such as No Child Left Behind and the other rather obvious assaults on public education from the right (and the left's stupid touchy feely nonsense) the general media/economic driven deterioration of society has made teaching a thankless task at best. Schools have become little more then some form of prison camp crossed with a day care.

Teachers are woefully underpaid seeing as they require a masters degree in Oregon. The summer break is great and all but is also an excuse used to pay them very little. All in all being a teacher sucks and the pay sucks and I would offer that it is an extremely important job. Sadly curriculum has become so insanely political (Creationism, PC non-sense etc. etc.) that it has been almost completely neutered. Add in constantly increasing expenses, and constantly decreasing funding (per child) and it just all gets quite ugly.

Because the Left seems to be the home where results don't matter, only intentions. And my opinion of the Left isn't based on feelings, it's based on thought. I'm neither bitter nor filled with hatred toward the Left. I just believe the philosophy to be bumfuzzled.

You sure could have fooled me that you aren't A) bitter and B) filled with at best overwhelming disgust for the left and something at least akin to hatred. I am not a fan of either the left or the right as it distracts from dealing with real issues. As it is things like gay marriage, abortion and creationism drown out critical economic, domestic and foreign policy issues. I think intent driven policy is stupid, but ends justifies the means is even worse. Judging from the last Republican Administration they are big believer in ends justifies the means (Abu Grhaib, Bhagram Airforce Base, Guantanamo, Eastern European black sites, Extraordinary Rendition etc.)

 

[maxiep]

Things I've read say that it will get much worse over the next 12+ months for commercial Real Estate, as in significantly worse. Buying now is what they call "catching a falling knife" the deals will only get better assuming you aren't wiped out in the interim. This is NOTHING like the Resolution Trust era in that America is in FAR, FAR deeper shit.

Thanks for your opinion. I'll treasure it.

The teachers thing is kind of silly as there are mediocre people at every level even president of the US. I don't put them on a pedestal. A number of your comments showed a definite lack of respect.

Once again, I thank you for your opinion.

I think that in combination with things such as No Child Left Behind and the other rather obvious assaults on public education from the right (and the left's stupid touchy feely nonsense) the general media/economic driven deterioration of society has made teaching a thankless task at best. Schools have become little more then some form of prison camp crossed with a day care.

I see from you lots of problems, but no solutions.

Teachers are woefully underpaid seeing as they require a masters degree in Oregon.

The Master's Degree in Teaching is one of the most worthless exercises I've ever seen. I have several friends who had to jump through that hoop and they all agreed it was both ridiculously easy and a waste of time. It was a hoop set up by the Teachers' Union to raise the barrier to entry.

The summer break is great and all but is also an excuse used to pay them very little. All in all being a teacher sucks and the pay sucks and I would offer that it is an extremely important job. Sadly curriculum has become so insanely political (Creationism, PC non-sense etc. etc.) that it has been almost completely neutered. Add in constantly increasing expenses, and constantly decreasing funding (per child) and it just all gets quite ugly.

The solutions are simple and obvious, but will never happen. And that's because the unions put the teachers ahead of the students.

You sure could have fooled me that you aren't A) bitter and B) filled with at best overwhelming disgust for the left and something at least akin to hatred.

Again, I treasure your opinion about what I think. However, I can state with certainty that I know my opinion better than do you.

I am not a fan of either the left or the right as it distracts from dealing with real issues. As it is things like gay marriage, abortion and creationism drown out critical economic, domestic and foreign policy issues. I think intent driven policy is stupid, but ends justifies the means is even worse. Judging from the last Republican Administration they are big believer in ends justifies the means (Abu Grhaib, Bhagram Airforce Base, Guantanamo, Eastern European black sites, Extraordinary Rendition etc.)

It must be nice to never make a stand. Golly, you're so wise.

 

[Idog1976]

Thanks for your opinion. I'll treasure it.



Once again, I thank you for your opinion.



I see from you lots of problems, but no solutions.



The Master's Degree in Teaching is one of the most worthless exercises I've ever seen. I have several friends who had to jump through that hoop and they all agreed it was both ridiculously easy and a waste of time. It was a hoop set up by the Teachers' Union to raise the barrier to entry.



The solutions are simple and obvious, but will never happen. And that's because the unions put the teachers ahead of the students.



Again, I treasure your opinion about what I think. However, I can state with certainty that I know my opinion better than do you.



It must be nice to never make a stand. Golly, you're so wise.

Oh I make stands but ones that binary partisans like yourself clearly have trouble understanding. It's clear that you THINK you understand what I'm saying but it's equally clear to me that you don't understand my positions on things. Being suckered into either parties rhetoric might equate to taking a stand in your mind but to me it's just giving the green light to more of the same we've seen in this country.

If you want a fresh start and a new direction the only hope is to get a third party or better yet a few parties going. Best of all of course would be to have such a limited government that there was very little done nationally other then collective defense. If a community can't support itself by it's own means (local government) then it is a mistake to take the wealth and industry of another part of the country to give it to a part of the country that isn't able or perhaps willing to make changes to increase the efficiency of it's local governance. Once things become too centralized it's a certain path to corruption and I offer 233 years of American history as my evidence. I see a lot of glib comments and partisan play book stuff but not much that is going to do anything then continue forward with the kind of partisan wrangling that has positively killed this country since roughly the Kennedy era when this country became a bi-polar nightmare where either the left or the right enjoys calling the other side traitorous for their own partisan goals. Ultimately the people pay the price as has been seen in the past 37 years.

By all means if you want more of the same continue with your "stand" I'll continue to think for myself.

 

[Shooter]

Best of all of course would be to have such a limited government that there was very little done nationally other then collective defense. If a community can't support itself by it's own means (local government) then it is a mistake to take the wealth and industry of another part of the country to give it to a part of the country that isn't able or perhaps willing to make changes to increase the efficiency of it's local governance. Once things become too centralized it's a certain path to corruption . . .

Bravo! I wish more Americans understood this point. Corruption inevitably occurs in government, but the potential for true destruction is multiplied many times over when you have a large, centralized bureacracy running things. I truly fear what this country is becoming.

 

[maxiep]

Oh I make stands but ones that binary partisans like yourself clearly have trouble understanding. It's clear that you THINK you understand what I'm saying but it's equally clear to me that you don't understand my positions on things. Being suckered into either parties rhetoric might equate to taking a stand in your mind but to me it's just giving the green light to more of the same we've seen in this country.

If you want a fresh start and a new direction the only hope is to get a third party or better yet a few parties going. Best of all of course would be to have such a limited government that there was very little done nationally other then collective defense. If a community can't support itself by it's own means (local government) then it is a mistake to take the wealth and industry of another part of the country to give it to a part of the country that isn't able or perhaps willing to make changes to increase the efficiency of it's local governance. Once things become too centralized it's a certain path to corruption and I offer 233 years of American history as my evidence. I see a lot of glib comments and partisan play book stuff but not much that is going to do anything then continue forward with the kind of partisan wrangling that has positively killed this country since roughly the Kennedy era when this country became a bi-polar nightmare where either the left or the right enjoys calling the other side traitorous for their own partisan goals. Ultimately the people pay the price as has been seen in the past 37 years.

By all means if you want more of the same continue with your "stand" I'll continue to think for myself.

Wow, you don't believe in the economy of language, I see.

Do you really believe your position is either revolutionary or original? On the contrary, it's trite and hackneyed. It's basically the platform of the Libertarians, of which I most closely identify. But if it makes you feel better about yourself that you're some kind of visionary, vaya con Dios.

 

[Idog1976]

Wow, you don't believe in the economy of language, I see.

Do you really believe your position is either revolutionary or original? On the contrary, it's trite and hackneyed. It's basically the platform of the Libertarians, of which I most closely identify. But if it makes you feel better about yourself that you're some kind of visionary, vaya con Dios.

Hey sorry I tried to tell you what you were feeling about liberals. Not my place. I could relate my feelings which were that it seemed your position was X. Not fair for me to state what you thought/felt. I retract that and apologize.

No I don't think it's revolutionary or original there isn't much that is. I feel it is a reasonable position to take given the track record of the major parties. Clearly you feel that backing a "Right Wing" view is taking a stand. I'm assuming you don't feel it's either original or revolutionary either. I appreciate that you think it's hackneyed and trite. I feel your positions as I've seen them on this board seem to be fairly partisan, perhaps I'm wrong about that. Regardless, I felt I should apologize for my seeming assumption about your feelings. That wasn't fair.

Either way you too can go with god. There really isn't any other way to go. Take care.

 

[Idog1976]

Bravo! I wish more Americans understood this point. Corruption inevitably occurs in government, but the potential for true destruction is multiplied many times over when you have a large, centralized bureacracy running things. I truly fear what this country is becoming.

I agree. What worries me is that people seem to think it's great for the government and the executive branch to acrete power when their party is in power but then start calling the head of the other party a dictator the minute the polls switch. In the meantime greater and greater power is ceded from the people to government. I too am very concerned where things are going. I once was a Democrat but realized that their language and partisanship was in a very different way every bit as divisive and dangerous as the rhetoric from the Republicans. I also notice both parties loved to grant ever increasing power to the government.

I'm kind of strange in that I believe we must recognize the importance of maintaining the environment but I also want to have as free of trade as possible as long as it doesn't impinge upon human rights and/or cause massive environmental destruction. I think we are at an inflection point and that if we don't change some of our behavior soon the consequences could be devastating. My grandfather was a Park Ranger at Glacier National Park and the stories (with pictures as proof) of the kind of bountiful fish of enormous size is a sad testament to degradation of the environment. I think you have to weigh human rights and the economy into the picture but we ignore the environment at our own peril.

 

[Shooter]

I agree. What worries me is that people seem to think it's great for the government and the executive branch to acrete power when their party is in power but then start calling the head of the other party a dictator the minute the polls switch. In the meantime greater and greater power is ceded from the people to government. I too am very concerned where things are going. I once was a Democrat but realized that their language and partisanship was in a very different way every bit as divisive and dangerous as the rhetoric from the Republicans. I also notice both parties loved to grant ever increasing power to the government.

I'm kind of strange in that I believe we must recognize the importance of maintaining the environment but I also want to have as free of trade as possible as long as it doesn't impinge upon human rights and/or cause massive environmental destruction. I think we are at an inflection point and that if we don't change some of our behavior soon the consequences could be devastating. My grandfather was a Park Ranger at Glacier National Park and the stories (with pictures as proof) of the kind of bountiful fish of enormous size is a sad testament to degradation of the environment. I think you have to weigh human rights and the economy into the picture but we ignore the environment at our own peril.

Sounds like we are very similar in our beliefs. I'm a conservative, but I also value the environment, and want to see it protected.

 

[Idog1976]

Sounds like we are very similar in our beliefs. I'm a conservative, but I also value the environment, and want to see it protected.

I'm sure we can find stuff to disagree about if we try hard enough.

Nice to hear about your position as a conservative that believes in conserving the environment. I know I would give virtually anything to have the kind of fishing my grandfather enjoyed. I also wish we had more old growth and used faster growing trees for lumber and paper products. Old growth is irreplacable. I also think that old growth rain forests in particular (Along with coral reefs and to a lesser extent temperate old growth) contain what is most likely the most valuable thing in the universe, widely diversified DNA. When you think about it someday we hope to be able to explore space. At that time things like gold, diamonds and rare metals will become easy to mine from asteroids even water can be got from these places. But life must be the rarest of all things and therefore the most valuable. From a more human point of view all this DNA and genes could be used to make medicines and improve our life. Seems a shame to chop it all down for big macs and toilet paper!

 

[BrianFromWA]

I didn't know Oregon required Master's degrees. South Carolina requires a high school education.

It would be different for me if I saw more emphasis on teaching.

My sister-in-law and two aunts are teachers. All of them are good, smart people. All of them feel hamstrung teaching the kids. There's no accountability (for the students or the teachers), and when kids can start finishing school and passing standard tests, then perhaps my opinion will increase slightly. But for all the "it's a noble profession!" sentiment, it's BS to me. Good teachers are good, good for society and should be rewarded. Poor ones shouldn't get to ride their coattails just because they're in a "noble profession", and not really tapping the potential of the kids they're supposed to be teaching.

 

[¹²³]

Michael Moore's new documentary gets a name

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Michael Moore's latest documentary now has a title — and a theme that resonates with recession-weary audiences.

Moore's look at the consequences of big business will be called "Capitalism: A Love Story." The documentary is due in theaters Oct. 2.

Distributor Overture Films said "Capitalism" examines the disastrous effects of corporate profiteering.

"It will be the perfect date movie," Moore said. "It's got it all — lust, passion, romance and 14,000 jobs being eliminated every day. It's a forbidden love, one that dare not speak its name. Heck, let's just say it: It's capitalism."

Moore got his start with the 1989 big-business documentary "Roger & Me," his portrait of the economic strife caused by General Motors job losses in his home town of Flint, Mich., and a chronicle of his quest for an audience with GM boss Roger Smith.

The filmmaker scored a $100 million hit with 2004's "Fahrenheit 9/11," which centered on the Bush White House's actions after the Sept. 11 attacks. Moore won an Academy Award for his 2002 gun-control documentary "Bowling for Columbine."

 

[maxiep]

I wonder how he'll feel if the people "profiting" off his movies stop funding them and that fat fuck's food bill?

 

[Shooter]

So Moore's next film is an attack on capitalism, the very system that allows him to make millions off his movies?

Do I have that straight?

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

So Moore's next film is an attack on capitalism, the very system that allows him to make millions off his movies?

Do I have that straight?

Yes. However, your point is irrelevant.

 

[Shooter]

Yes. However, your point is irrelevant.

My point is exactly to the point. Moore is a hypocrite who is slamming the very economic system which has made him wealthy.

 

[Denny Crane]

I didn't know Oregon required Master's degrees. South Carolina requires a high school education.

It would be different for me if I saw more emphasis on teaching.

My sister-in-law and two aunts are teachers. All of them are good, smart people. All of them feel hamstrung teaching the kids. There's no accountability (for the students or the teachers), and when kids can start finishing school and passing standard tests, then perhaps my opinion will increase slightly. But for all the "it's a noble profession!" sentiment, it's BS to me. Good teachers are good, good for society and should be rewarded. Poor ones shouldn't get to ride their coattails just because they're in a "noble profession", and not really tapping the potential of the kids they're supposed to be teaching.

Exactly my view. I don't see funding as an issue.... When I do back of the envelope calculations based upon what the cost is per pupil, I have a hard time spending all that money. Check it out:

They claim the classrooms are too crowded. Assume a 40:1 student:teacher ratio. At $10K/student (the figures are in the public record), that's $400K per teacher.

So pay the teacher $100K and you have $300K left over. Pay $200K to paint the walls, fix the roof, and buy books. Heck, at $1K per computer, you can buy a brand new computer every year per student @ $40K of that.

Leaves $100K to pay the janitor and the principal and anything else that would be considered common or support. That's $100K per home room to pay for those things. Plenty.

See?

So the real issue is the system itself. The great young teachers don't have tenure so they can't be paid what they're worth. They go elsewhere. The older crappy teachers get tenure and pay based upon years of service instead of merit and they aren't going anywhere.

It has to be true that the teachers are mediocre if the results are as bad as most reports say they are.

 

[barfo]

My point is exactly to the point. Moore is a hypocrite who is slamming the very economic system which has made him wealthy.

Well, he's not a banker, so far as I know. If he made a movie criticizing people who make films with a political point of view, then you might have a point.

But otherwise, you are just saying "America, love it or leave it". No criticism allowed, because we all get some benefit from the existing system.

barfo

 

[Денг Гордон]

You can read the Flivver King and get the same message that this movie will have. And the Flivver King will be 10 times more entertaining.

 

[¹²³]

 

[bluefrog]

Love him or hate him Michael Moore makes some of the most entertaining social commentary. Even if you don't agree with him at least his documentaries approach serious issues with humor.

I wish the conservative movement would have an equivalent

 

[Eastoff]

...
coaching teams... Unpaid.

not always the case, but you are underpaid. You have to like the sport and want to help it grow.

You have to stay till 8pm at your job, you get OT. You stay till 8pm at a school? That's not paid, let alone OT.

Salary people never get OT. There are plenty of engineers and business people on salary.

However, I generally agree that teachers are very important and extremely giving people. But I think there is always room for improvement in the system. Mainly more teachers with more qualifications!

 

[Eastoff]

I find this VERY hypocritical after his movie about Bowling for Columbine. The middle of this clearly suggests violence against those who took money.

 

[Eastoff]

... I also wish we had more old growth and used faster growing trees for lumber and paper products... widely diversified DNA.

this is a contradiction. Fast growing trees for lumber is the opposite of diversification. A similar example is the chicken. There is basically one hybrid species of chicken that is used everywhere for human consumption. Don't get me wrong, i'm not a vegetarian. The answer to the lumber industry is thinning of trees, not planting crops.

 

[Eastoff]

Exactly my view. I don't see funding as an issue.... When I do back of the envelope calculations based upon what the cost is per pupil, I have a hard time spending all that money. Check it out:

They claim the classrooms are too crowded. Assume a 40:1 student:teacher ratio. At $10K/student (the figures are in the public record), that's $400K per teacher.

So pay the teacher $100K and you have $300K left over. Pay $200K to paint the walls, fix the roof, and buy books. Heck, at $1K per computer, you can buy a brand new computer every year per student @ $40K of that.

Leaves $100K to pay the janitor and the principal and anything else that would be considered common or support. That's $100K per home room to pay for those things. Plenty.

See?

So the real issue is the system itself. The great young teachers don't have tenure so they can't be paid what they're worth. They go elsewhere. The older crappy teachers get tenure and pay based upon years of service instead of merit and they aren't going anywhere.

It has to be true that the teachers are mediocre if the results are as bad as most reports say they are.

I think 35 kids is a more reasonable number for oregon schools. That being said you are also ignoring health care for the teachers. Probably some insurance is necessary in addition. All of the bills of lighting and giving water to the schools. Grounds maintenance must be taken care of, but that's part of your painting and roofs, right? I know my schools had a nurse atleast once a day. High Schools typically have some kind of advisor. You also typically need a secretary for answering calls about "Why isn't billy in advanced placement reading?" and the PE teachers and Music teachers, i would hope.

 

[¹²³]

Michael Moore’s “Capitalism” wins fans in week No. 1