With the keys back to Roy

[magnifier661]

I suspect his average to go up considerably. I'm thinking 24 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists.

As much as some maybe thinking Roy is pompous for wanting the starting line-up more "traditional" from what he believes works terrible, I think it's a good sign. Also, looking at the body language of the team, it looks like everyone else feels the same way.

Could it be that everyone on the team thought this and Roy just spoke for the team? What's wrong with that?

I think Roy being the best player on this team and basically the face of this franchise, he needs to be more vocal. We've had too many "wannabe leaders" that wouldn't put their neck on the line for the betterment of this team.

I say kudos to Roy for doing what he did.

 

[Natebishop3]

What concerns me is that Roy is always talking about being as good as Kobe or LeBron or Wade. He clearly wants to be considered one of the best players in the game. I don't see anything wrong with that, but at what cost? The Brandon Roy iso's are not the most effective play in the book. If Brandon wants to play point guard, we should move him to that position and start Rudy. I'm tired of Steve Blake playing "point guard" when in reality he's just a shooting guard, spotting up around the perimeter and waiting for the ball. If Brandon wants to have the ball in his hands, we should try a Penny Hardaway model and see if it works. I want to maximize the talent on this team, and with Steve Blake in the starting backcourt, we are clearly not doing that.

 

[magnifier661]

What concerns me is that Roy is always talking about being as good as Kobe or LeBron or Wade. He clearly wants to be considered one of the best players in the game. I don't see anything wrong with that, but at what cost? The Brandon Roy iso's are not the most effective play in the book. If Brandon wants to play point guard, we should move him to that position and start Rudy. I'm tired of Steve Blake playing "point guard" when in reality he's just a shooting guard, spotting up around the perimeter and waiting for the ball. If Brandon wants to have the ball in his hands, we should try a Penny Hardaway model and see if it works. I want to maximize the talent on this team, and with Steve Blake in the starting backcourt, we are clearly not doing that.

I think that will eventually be what happens. I really think maybe by the end of this season, or next season, we will be seeing a line-up of Fernandez, Roy, Batum or Webster, Aldridge and Oden. I think Fernandez is really good at tossing the "post entry pass to Oden", which will be the case down the road.

Also, with Fernandez... He can guard the PG on the defensive end and be more of that SG type on the offensive end, with Roy doing most the ball handling.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think that will eventually be what happens. I really think maybe by the end of this season, or next season, we will be seeing a line-up of Fernandez, Roy, Batum or Webster, Aldridge and Oden. I think Fernandez is really good at tossing the "post entry pass to Oden", which will be the case down the road.

Also, with Fernandez... He can guard the PG on the defensive end and be more of that SG type on the offensive end, with Roy doing most the ball handling.

Rudy and Roy are going to have to really improve their defense if they are going to be defending point guards.

 

[magnifier661]

Rudy and Roy are going to have to really improve their defense if they are going to be defending point guards.

Well Roy got burned "big time" by Ellis, but Ellis is a phenom and amazingly quick. Plus the dude played 48 minutes during that game. Duing certain situations, I would rather bring in "Bayless" instead of Fernandez to cover those really quick guards, during special occasions. Regardless, I think the best 5 players on the team would be Fernandez, Roy, Batum or Wesbter, Aldridge and Oden.

 

[Natebishop3]

Well Roy got burned "big time" by Ellis, but Ellis is a phenom and amazingly quick. Plus the dude played 48 minutes during that game. Duing certain situations, I would rather bring in "Bayless" instead of Fernandez to cover those really quick guards, during special occasions. Regardless, I think the best 5 players on the team would be Fernandez, Roy, Batum or Wesbter, Aldridge and Oden.

If you look around the league, a lot of the point guards are amazingly quick phenoms.

Chris Paul
Derrick Rose
Aaron Brooks
Johnny Flynn
Brandon Jennings
Tony Parker

etc etc etc

 

[andalusian]

I don't see anything wrong with that, but at what cost? The Brandon Roy iso's are not the most effective play in the book.

I can't think of a worse analysis, frankly. B-Roy in isolation with proper spacing is one of the most effective plays in the book, since he is very hard to keep in front of in single coverage, can finish really well near the basket - and he does a fantastic job of making the right decision when to try and score and when to pass.

The Houston series was lost not because B-Roy's isolation's did not work, it was lost because no-one else other than him converted properly, even when open - which lead him to take more of the scoring burden.

What this team needs to more of, is let Roy be the guy initiating the offense as much as possible - because he is such a match-up nightmare, and convert when he gives others the ball. When he is off the ball - we need to have others create and play properly - but again, what Roy needs to do - is get to the paint more from the dribble and make the correct reads from there.

 

[magnifier661]

If you look around the league, a lot of the point guards are amazingly quick phenoms.

Chris Paul
Derrick Rose
Aaron Brooks
Johnny Flynn
Brandon Jennings
Tony Parker

etc etc etc

And yet teams with slower guards are able to beat those teams. Maybe Nate should watch film on those teams and figure better ways to beat those teams. On a side note. We've been beating the hell out of SAS lately, so maybe look at that film.

 

[andalusian]

And yet teams with slower guards are able to beat those teams. Maybe Nate should watch film on those teams and figure better ways to beat those teams. On a side note. We've been beating the hell out of SAS lately, so maybe look at that film.

Umm, we have been able to beat these teams as well. We finished 2-2 against NOH last year, we finish 2-0 against the Bulls, We finished 3-1 against the Spurs, We are 1-1 with the Rockets and 3-0 with the T-Pups this year...

We have problems with quick guards, but GSW did not just play 1 quick guard - they played several of them at the same time. This really gives us fits.

As bad as Steve Blake seems against quick guards - he does a better job of staying in front of them than B-Roy...

 

[magnifier661]

Umm, we have been able to beat these teams as well. We finished 2-2 against NOH last year, we finish 2-0 against the Bulls, We finished 3-1 against the Spurs, We are 1-1 with the Rockets and 3-0 with the T-Pups this year...

We have problems with quick guards, but GSW did not just play 1 quick guard - they played several of them at the same time. This really gives us fits.

As bad as Steve Blake seems against quick guards - he does a better job of staying in front of them than B-Roy...

We may lose a few of those games, but the only way to combat them is to constantly post them up and power them into changing their game. Instead, Nate choose to match speed for speed, which was a HUGE mistake. But I'm not that worried about it. If we met them in a 7 game series, I can see it working for maybe 1 or 2 games, then they lose big time after.

Remember that Ellis and that other PG played all 48 minutes.

 

[Natebishop3]

I can't think of a worse analysis, frankly. B-Roy in isolation with proper spacing is one of the most effective plays in the book, since he is very hard to keep in front of in single coverage, can finish really well near the basket - and he does a fantastic job of making the right decision when to try and score and when to pass.

The Houston series was lost not because B-Roy's isolation's did not work, it was lost because no-one else other than him converted properly, even when open - which lead him to take more of the scoring burden.

What this team needs to more of, is let Roy be the guy initiating the offense as much as possible - because he is such a match-up nightmare, and convert when he gives others the ball. When he is off the ball - we need to have others create and play properly - but again, what Roy needs to do - is get to the paint more from the dribble and make the correct reads from there.

We've seen multiple occasions where teams have shut him down in the iso. Washington did it last season. Houston has done it. I think OKC did it too. It's especially ineffective when Roy has the ball up top and we try to bring Aldridge or Joel in for a screen. Roy ends up trapped and he is forced to make a hasty decision.

I hate the iso. It slows things way down, it runs out the clock, and usually the rest of the team ends up standing around and watching Roy.

 

[andalusian]

Remember that Ellis and that other PG played all 48 minutes.

I did not see the GSW game - but we have had trouble with quick teams with multiple quick guards since, like forever. GSW, PHX (with Nash and Barbosa), even the Knicks who were a crappy team last year played us a lot closer than they should have.

 

[magnifier661]

We've seen multiple occasions where teams have shut him down in the iso. Washington did it last season. Houston has done it. I think OKC did it too. It's especially ineffective when Roy has the ball up top and we try to bring Aldridge or Joel in for a screen. Roy ends up trapped and he is forced to make a hasty decision.

I hate the iso. It slows things way down, it runs out the clock, and usually the rest of the team ends up standing around and watching Roy.

This is why it's so important to give some of the load to Oden as well, and I suspect Roy knows this. When teams are trying to take away that top of the key Iso, have all the players ready to feed the Beast and punish them for it. Pound it inside, while all the attention is on Roy at the top of the key. Maybe two passes, then a post entry pass, with Oden so far in the paint, he will dunk or get fouled.

 

[magnifier661]

I did not see the GSW game - but we have had trouble with quick teams with multiple quick guards since, like forever. GSW, PHX (with Nash and Barbosa), even the Knicks who were a crappy team last year played us a lot closer than they should have.

Well we play those teams (2 New York, GSW 3 times) in one season. So, for me, it's a risk I would be more willing to take. The sooner we can establish Oden, the better we will punish teams for their size. This is one thing I worry about Nate. I wonder if he knows how to utilize the size he has on his roster.

 

[andalusian]

We've seen multiple occasions where teams have shut him down in the iso. Washington did it last season. Houston has done it. I think OKC did it too. It's especially ineffective when Roy has the ball up top and we try to bring Aldridge or Joel in for a screen. Roy ends up trapped and he is forced to make a hasty decision.

I hate the iso. It slows things way down, it runs out the clock, and usually the rest of the team ends up standing around and watching Roy.

We won both games against Washington last year. Houston did a fantastic job against us last year, but what failed us was that no-one other than Roy brought it on against them. LMA had a couple of good games - and we won them, the rest of them Scola out-played him. Travis, who was our 3rd scorer last year was a no-factor against Houston, Blake was ineffective, Yao's size really took Greg's advantage. The problem was not the iso's - it was that no-one else was hitting their shots. When no one else is hitting the shots - the other team can clog the middle (which Houston did) - and make Roy's penetration harder. Roy still scored like a super-star against them. The problem was, that he was the only one that was scoring and he had to work like crazy.

If you look at who they really wanted to bring in - were other guys that could create and space (Hedo) followed by other guys that can score the mid-range (Millsap, David Lee) - before they went for the "best left" in Miller. The Iso's work, you just need shooters and scorer that can catch and shoot to work next to it.

It is pretty much impossible to trap Roy for the entire game if other people hit their shots. Sure, there will be some games where we get in trouble with it - but overall, it is still a fantastic weapon.

 

[Natebishop3]

We won both games against Washington last year. Houston did a fantastic job against us last year, but what failed us was that no-one other than Roy brought it on against them. LMA had a couple of good games - and we won them, the rest of them Scola out-played him. Travis, who was our 3rd scorer last year was a no-factor against Houston, Blake was ineffective, Yao's size really took Greg's advantage. The problem was not the iso's - it was that no-one else was hitting their shots. When no one else is hitting the shots - the other team can clog the middle (which Houston did) - and make Roy's penetration harder. Roy still scored like a super-star against them. The problem was, that he was the only one that was scoring and he had to work like crazy.

If you look at who they really wanted to bring in - were other guys that could create and space (Hedo) followed by other guys that can score the mid-range (Millsap, David Lee) - before they went for the "best left" in Miller. The Iso's work, you just need shooters and scorer that can catch and shoot to work next to it.

It is pretty much impossible to trap Roy for the entire game if other people hit their shots. Sure, there will be some games where we get in trouble with it - but overall, it is still a fantastic weapon.

But how will the iso work consistently when we have Greg Oden on the floor? He isn't a good shooter. He isn't going to be able to space the floor. I would rather run an inside-out offense around Oden, than an iso dominated offense centered on Roy.

 

[magnifier661]

We won both games against Washington last year. Houston did a fantastic job against us last year, but what failed us was that no-one other than Roy brought it on against them. LMA had a couple of good games - and we won them, the rest of them Scola out-played him. Travis, who was our 3rd scorer last year was a no-factor against Houston, Blake was ineffective, Yao's size really took Greg's advantage. The problem was not the iso's - it was that no-one else was hitting their shots. When no one else is hitting the shots - the other team can clog the middle (which Houston did) - and make Roy's penetration harder. Roy still scored like a super-star against them. The problem was, that he was the only one that was scoring and he had to work like crazy.

If you look at who they really wanted to bring in - were other guys that could create and space (Hedo) followed by other guys that can score the mid-range (Millsap, David Lee) - before they went for the "best left" in Miller. The Iso's work, you just need shooters and scorer that can catch and shoot to work next to it.

It is pretty much impossible to trap Roy for the entire game if other people hit their shots. Sure, there will be some games where we get in trouble with it - but overall, it is still a fantastic weapon.

You forgot to mention that Houston couldn't miss, even if their shot was perfectly contested. In that series, the role players were shooting like they had 51% career averages from 3. It was a perfectly played game by the Rockets. They didn't even have more "points in the paint" than we did, yet we lost to them.

 

[andalusian]

But how will the iso work consistently when we have Greg Oden on the floor? He isn't a good shooter. He isn't going to be able to space the floor. I would rather run an inside-out offense around Oden, than an iso dominated offense centered on Roy.

They worked just fine with Joel Pryzbilla who is not a shooter as well.

You do not need everyone to shoot 3s, just the wings.

Add the fact that LMA is a fine mid-range shooter - and we have someone to set the pick (Greg or LMA), 2 wings stretching the defense - and Roy on Iso. That's not a bad thing at all.

 

[Natebishop3]

They worked just fine with Joel Pryzbilla who is not a shooter as well.

You do not need everyone to shoot 3s, just the wings.

Add the fact that LMA is a fine mid-range shooter - and we have someone to set the pick (Greg or LMA), 2 wings stretching the defense - and Roy on Iso. That's not a bad thing at all.

But it still relegates the rest of the team to standing around and watching. That might have been okay in seasons past, but it's not okay now. Greg is so much more integral to our future on offense than Joel ever was. Joel does two things; screen and box out. We don't run plays for him. We don't throw him lobs. He's basically a void on offense. Oden can actually be a difference maker.

Would you rather we run the offense through Roy or Oden? Greg has already shown he can be an effective passer. If we throw the ball into Greg, we get the same advantages of a Roy iso, but we don't see the team standing around. We can still spread the floor with our shooters. We can still spot up. The only difference is that it promotes ball movement / player movement. Guys can cut (like Miller), or wait for the pass back out of the post for the three.

 

[LittleAlex]

We may lose a few of those games, but the only way to combat them is to constantly post them up and power them into changing their game. Instead, Nate choose to match speed for speed, which was a HUGE mistake. But I'm not that worried about it. If we met them in a 7 game series, I can see it working for maybe 1 or 2 games, then they lose big time after.

Remember that Ellis and that other PG played all 48 minutes.

This is what happened in GS and what has happened consistantly during Nate's tenure.

It doesn't seem like the best coaches in the league let the other team dictate what their gameplan is.

 

[magnifier661]

This is what happened in GS and what has happened consistantly during Nate's tenure.

It doesn't seem like the best coaches in the league let the other team dictate what their gameplan is.

Yep and that's my biggest beef with Nate. He's got the dominance on his roster to dictate the tempo (which so far this season he has) and force other teams to change their game plan during games (Only once have I seen this against SAS).

 

[hasoos]

Well Roy got burned "big time" by Ellis, but Ellis is a phenom and amazingly quick. Plus the dude played 48 minutes during that game. Duing certain situations, I would rather bring in "Bayless" instead of Fernandez to cover those really quick guards, during special occasions. Regardless, I think the best 5 players on the team would be Fernandez, Roy, Batum or Wesbter, Aldridge and Oden.

There were so many break downs in the Golden State game I don't really think you can judge how that works overall from that game. The Blazers basically had to play as bad as they could, at both ends of the floor, in order for Golden State to win like they did. Not only did we not use our size to defend, but we didn't use it properly to score. We went small and jacked up a lot of jumpers. A lot of jumpers = lots of transition buckets which are hard for a guard with size to make a difference on. If we would have kept them to a half court game, then our guards size would have made a difference.

I am buying the drinks when Nate goes to a 3 guard rotation of Roy, Fernandez, and Bayless. Too bad that's never going to happen.

 

[andalusian]

But it still relegates the rest of the team to standing around and watching. That might have been okay in seasons past, but it's not okay now. Greg is so much more integral to our future on offense than Joel ever was. Joel does two things; screen and box out. We don't run plays for him. We don't throw him lobs. He's basically a void on offense. Oden can actually be a difference maker.

Yes, but it can still start with a Roy iso. The best basket of the last game was Roy going to the rim from the Iso and delivering a wrap-around pass to Oden for a dunk.

I did not say that we only need to run Roy Isolation plays, but they should be a much bigger part of our offense than what we have seen with Miller handling the ball.

Would you rather we run the offense through Roy or Oden?

At this point - more Roy, some Oden. When/if Oden develops and can handle the ball, pass out of the double-team and cut on his turn-overs, some more Oden, but Roy still has to be a very big part of the offense.

Let's face it, with the way the rules are in the NBA now - it's the wing players that determine the offense more than the bigs. The last time a big carried a team to a ring was the early 2000s Shaq teams - and honestly, no-one is going to ref the games like this anymore (even if we believe Greg will ever be as good on offense as Shaq was in his prime, which is a reach).

Greg has already shown he can be an effective passer. If we throw the ball into Greg, we get the same advantages of a Roy iso, but we don't see the team standing around.

For Greg to be effective - the same stuff that happens with Roy's isolation plays need to happen, we need to space the floor. Otherwise, a perimeter player can double on Greg an you leave a 20% 3P shooter as the only open guy (Miller).

We can still spread the floor with our shooters.

OK, so again, you do not think that Miller is good for Greg's inside-out game mostly.

We can still spot up. The only difference is that it promotes ball movement / player movement. Guys can cut (like Miller), or wait for the pass back out of the post for the three.

Miller had 4 cutting to the middle baskets in the entire season from Greg in the post plays. That's not an offensive system - unless you have a beast like LeBron barreling into the post that you can not physically stop.

Going through Greg is a good thing, in moderation at this point until he gets better taking care of the ball - but it is not a great weapon unless you have lots of shooters outside.

 

[Blaze01]

We've seen multiple occasions where teams have shut him down in the iso.

You are right on the money....Teams ARE shutting down Roy's iso attempts, I don't know how anyone could deny that hasn't happened...Seriously what have you been watching? And even IF you go back to that "play" why oh why would you have Blake alongside Roy instead of the FAR FAR more versatile Rudy Fernandez?

It defies logic....