With turner playing better. has anyone considered?

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rasheedfan2005

rasheedfan2005

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insert him into the starting line up for CJ. this would help the defense on the perimeter while still maintaining an elite level offense. CJ could then run the bench by himself rather than ISO with the starting line up.

thoughts? let's get this done stotts
 
No. C.J. is our most efficient 1st quarter scorer (.532 FG%, .522 3FG%). When he's hot, he keeps us in games. When he's not, we are usually down by 15 - 20 after the 1st period. Take him out of the starting line up and we'd ALWAYS be down by 15 - 20 after 1.

For comparison, Evan Turner shoots .346 FG% and .333 3FG% in the first quarter. Why would we want that? Don't we regularly dig ourselfs into double digit deficits early in games as it is?

BNM
 
Has anyone considered that the Dame+CJ full time back court experiment is something of a failure?

I am very high on both players, but they don't play D, especially together. The SG position is really small, too.

It's hard enough hiding one poor defender, almost impossible to hide two.

It would be amazing to have a 6th man as great as CJ. I'd only play him with Dame in 3 guard sets where situations make sense.

But he may not want to go to the bench.

We could start either Turner or Crabbe at SG. They both address the height issue and defense at SG. Turner just isn't a great 3pt shooter, and Crabbe isn't that great a ball handler/distributor.

I might actually give the nod to Turner.

It might really be worth tinkering with the lineup, at least. If nothing is going to get better if we don't change something.
 
What do they have to lose at this point? Starting CJ and Dame together isn't working defensively, so it's time to shake things up.
 
Denny Crane said:
Has anyone considered that the Dame+CJ full time back court experiment is something of a failure?

I am very high on both players, but they don't play D, especially together. The SG position is really small, too.

It's hard enough hiding one poor defender, almost impossible to hide two.

It would be amazing to have a 6th man as great as CJ. I'd only play him with Dame in 3 guard sets where situations make sense.

But he may not want to go to the bench.

We could start either Turner or Crabbe at SG. They both address the height issue and defense at SG. Turner just isn't a great 3pt shooter, and Crabbe isn't that great a ball handler/distributor.

I might actually give the nod to Turner.

It might really be worth tinkering with the lineup, at least. If nothing is going to get better if we don't change something.
Click to expand...

Crabbe is no better defensively than C.J. If you start Crabbe, Dame is your ONLY ball handler. That makes it to easy for other teams to shut down our offense by trapping Dame.

Turner addresses the ball handling issue, and is a better defender than Crabbe or C.J., but now you have an offense that relies on spacing and outside shooting with three guys who can't shoot (Plumlee, Davis/Aminu and Turner). Maurice Harkless is a borderline 3rd option. No way can we succeed with him as our second option on offense.

Dame/C.J. may not be perfect, but they are light years better than any of these other proposed combos.

Crabbe is way too one dimensional, can't create his own shot, or for others. He needs to be on the court with at least two other ball handlers to be effective.

Turner can't shoot, so he needs to be on the court with at least two other great shooters to be effective.

Let's face it, with the players we have, juggling our starting back court is equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Crabbe is no better defensively than C.J. If you start Crabbe, Dame is your ONLY ball handler. That makes it to easy for other teams to shut down our offense by trapping Dame.

Turner addresses the ball handling issue, and is a better defender than Crabbe or C.J., but now you have an offense that relies on spacing and outside shooting with three guys who can't shoot (Plumlee, Davis/Aminu and Turner). Maurice Harkless is a borderline 3rd option. No way can we succeed with him as our second option on offense.

Dame/C.J. may not be perfect, but they are light years better than any of these other proposed combos.

Crabbe is way too one dimensional, can't create his own shot, or for others. He needs to be on the court with at least two other ball handlers to be effective.

Turner can't shoot, so he needs to be on the court with at least two other great shooters to be effective.

Let's face it, with the players we have, juggling our starting back court is equivalent to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

BNM
Click to expand...

You consistently look at 1/2 the game.

The other 1/2 is defense.

You cannot possibly know if Crabbe in the starting lineup would not make us a much better defensive team. The advanced stats do not capture defensive ability. It's truly a subjective thing. The coaches and reporters that cover the game love his defense.

What we do know is that the lineups as constructed aren't working as well as last year.
 
Denny Crane said:
You consistently look at 1/2 the game.

The other 1/2 is defense.

You cannot possibly know if Crabbe in the starting lineup would not make us a much better defensive team. The advanced stats do not capture defensive ability. It's truly a subjective thing. The coaches and reporters that cover the game love his defense.

What we do know is that the lineups as constructed aren't working as well as last year.
Click to expand...

No I don't ignore defense. I commented on both Crabbe's and Turner's defense. Just because my opinion doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean I'm only looking at half the game (it just means you're wrong).

I specifically watch Allen Crabbe playing "defense" and he flat out sucks. He's not quick enough to guard SGs and not big enough to guard SFs. He's a tweener.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
No I don't ignore defense. I commented on both Crabbe's and Turner's defense. Just because my opinion doesn't agree with yours doesn't mean I'm only looking at half the game (it just means you're wrong).

I specifically watch Allen Crabbe playing "defense" and he flat out sucks. He's not quick enough to guard SGs and not big enough to guard SFs. He's a tweener.

BNM
Click to expand...
Crabbe is the most overrated defender on our team. He fouls way to much, especially on jumpshooters.
 
Boob-No-More said:
No. C.J. is our most efficient 1st quarter scorer (.532 FG%, .522 3FG%). When he's hot, he keeps us in games. When he's not, we are usually down by 15 - 20 after the 1st period. Take him out of the starting line up and we'd ALWAYS be down by 15 - 20 after 1.

For comparison, Evan Turner shoots .346 FG% and .333 3FG% in the first quarter. Why would we want that? Don't we regularly dig ourselfs into double digit deficits early in games as it is?

BNM
Click to expand...
because turner is better at defense and dame can get passes instead of watching CJ dribble. i love CJ but the duo is killing us on perimiter D. i think it would be better for CJ to give us 30 minutes off the bench where they could use his ability to score by himself while dame rests. then crabbe could be his 2 guard and both lineups would be a little larger and still have good offense. hopefully beef up the defense a bit.
 
Turner is an excellent passer, is a good defender and has excellent size for PG position.
Start Turner at point.
Trade Lillard for Anthony Davis. Then we actually have a two-way player at PG.
Less in-efficient shots from your PG position, better passing, much better defense. (Scoring picked up by The Brow)
 
WillG said:
Turner is an excellent passer, is a good defender and has excellent size for PG position.
Start Turner at point.
Trade Lillard for Anthony Davis. Then we actually have a two-way player at PG.
Less in-efficient shots from your PG position, better passing, much better defense. (Scoring picked up by The Brow)
Click to expand...

At the rate AD is playing it would take Dame/Harkless/Aminu and Leonard.
OR Dame AND CJ.
 
It's not as if the lineup of Dame, Crabbe, and Turner doesn't get some run every single game. That's the standard rotation when CJ goes to the bench at about the 5:30 remaining point in the first quarter. I just don't see any evidence that that lineup is better defensively and it sure as heck isn't better offensively. Last night, with Dame and CJ starting, the Warriors built a 12-23, 11 point lead. When CJ and Vonleh went to the bench with 5:09 left in the quarter, Turner and Crabbe came in and played alongside Dame. The lead blew up to 17 at 19-36 with that lineup by the time CJ returned with 28 seconds left in the quarter. Yeah, that's just one quarter in one ugly game, but I'd sure love to see the stats on how those guys do over time when running with Dame vs. when CJ is in the game. My general impression is that Crabbe and Turner are mediocre defenders at best and that they are happy shooters, meaning that they score effectively when the game is going the Blazers way, and suck when it's not.
 
im just wondering when the last time we didnt give up 30 in the first was and if an undersized back court combine with shit defense is responsible?
 
Denny Crane said:
Has anyone considered that the Dame+CJ full time back court experiment is something of a failure?
Click to expand...

Maybe true, but I wouldn't concede that just yet. They are both having productive offensive seasons, but they are having to work much harder now. Just about every night Dame & CJ are getting blitzed/trapped, in order to get the ball out of their hands. And why not? Mason Plumlee or Ed Davis facing up from 18' isn't scaring anyone. You can go on down the line, and this team just isn't that talented offensively when anyone not named Dame or CJ is trying to make plays. For the most part it's 2 guys having to create offense on way too many possessions because nobody else can (consistently) When they are forced to give the ball up, it's mostly a struggle to generate offense. Neither will ever be All Defensive team nominees, but I don't think they are horrible on ball defenders. It's the picks where they seem to get exploited the most, & this year is worse than ever. That could be at least partially due to the effort they're having to expend on the other side of the ball..
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
im just wondering when the last time we didnt give up 30 in the first was and if an undersized back court combine with shit defense is responsible?
Click to expand...

CJ and Dame gave up 23 points to the Warriors in roughly 7 minutes. Dame and Turner gave up 13 points in less than 5 minutes. Slightly better D but the scoring dropped from 12 points in 7 minutes to 7 points in 5. Neither combo is going to beat a good team playing like that.
 
e_blazer said:
CJ and Dame gave up 23 points to the Warriors in roughly 7 minutes. Dame and Turner gave up 13 points in less than 5 minutes. Slightly better D but the scoring dropped from 12 points in 7 minutes to 7 points in 5. Neither combo is going to beat a good team playing like that.
Click to expand...
No one can post up and kick in the starting line up. Turner could.
 
rasheedfan2005 said:
insert him into the starting line up for CJ. this would help the defense on the perimeter while still maintaining an elite level offense. CJ could then run the bench by himself rather than ISO with the starting line up.

thoughts? let's get this done stotts
Click to expand...

I actually kinda like this idea. Something has got to give at this point, we need a wake up call and evan turner could be an ideal starting 2 with lillard. I got no problems with it honestly
 
"Something has got to give" isn't a good enough reason to bench CJ. There's moves that will make things even worse, and that's one of them.
 
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