Woman-led and gay-friendly progressive Muslims

[TradeNurkicNow]

I just wanted to hear some conservatives react to this.

Go on then.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...gay-friendly-women-led-mosques_n_1368460.html

 

[MickZagger]

I wanna read Shooters take on this.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Muslims can be very violently extreme in their views towards women and queers. I would be concerned for their safety.

 

[PapaG]

I just wanted to hear some conservatives react to this.

Go on then.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...gay-friendly-women-led-mosques_n_1368460.html

Well, I guess that eliminates honor killings, sharia law, and the treatment of gays and women around the globe by the Muslim religion.

What's the point of this thread again?

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Muslims can be very violently extreme in their views towards women and queers. I would be concerned for their safety.

I am sort of concerned for their safety as well, but they are in the U.S.

Well, I guess that eliminates honor killings, sharia law, and the treatment of gays and women around the globe by the Muslim religion.

What's the point of this thread again?

To solve all the problems ever, of course.

or this:

I just wanted to hear some conservatives react to this.

 

[MARIS61]

Nothing unusual. Nearly all "followers" of all religions ignore or disobey the guidelines that clash with their personal desires.

It's called hypocrisy.

 

[crandc]

I think the point is that religious people are not "all alike". There have been Muslim contingents in the Gay Pride Parade in San Francisco for several years.

It's really no more a contradiction than feminists and LGBT people in any other patriarchal religion. Most believers are "cafeteria" believers who pick what they like. Some like hating gays, some like being gay friendly; both pro-slavery and anti-slavery in the U.S. quoted the same Christian bible as justification; you can usually dredge up an appropriate quote from an appropriate religious authority for any view.

Prejudice doesn't come from a god, it comes from people who then try to find a "godly" justification.

 

[Denny Crane]

Seems to me most religions have a concept of orthodoxy. There are some sects of each religion that are strict and others that are quite liberal.

And, FWIW, the church had a lot of positive effect on the civil rights movement. Al Sharpton is a reverend, so was MLK Jr. So is Jesse Jackson.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionand...and-the-civil-rights-movement/background/335/

Many of the most prominent figures of the civil rights movement drew their motivation to fight for freedom and equality from their religious faith. Powered by the belief that all men and women are children of God, they set forth to assure that justice, fair treatment, and equal opportunity were awarded to people of all races, cultural backgrounds, and religious faiths. As historian and Martin Luther King biographer Taylor Branch has said, the civil rights movement fused the political promise of equal votes with the spiritual doctrine of equal souls. While it is easy to see how religion would serve as a tremendous motivator for such a cause, some question whether direct influence and discussion of religion in the civil rights movement somehow threatens a secular society and the separation of church and state.

 

[crandc]

Of course many in civil rights were motivated by their faith, and not just Christians. But the Ku Klux Klan also explicitly defines itself as Christian.

Point being, there are enough contradictory texts to make your religion say anything you want.

 

[Ed O]

If Islam were woman- or gay-friendly, why would progressive Muslims feel the need to reform Islam?

I think it's great that followers are trying to make changes to the practice of Islam. Hopefully they can drag it closer to the norms of Western society. I fear that they're spitting into the wind, though.

Ed O.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

If Islam were woman- or gay-friendly, why would progressive Muslims feel the need to reform Islam?

I think it's great that followers are trying to make changes to the practice of Islam. Hopefully they can drag it closer to the norms of Western society. I fear that they're spitting into the wind, though.

Ed O.

I dunno. Isolationism of the Muslims has been chipping away constantly for years. More and more they are becoming more "westernized" and rational.

 

[PapaG]

Of course many in civil rights were motivated by their faith, and not just Christians. But the Ku Klux Klan also explicitly defines itself as Christian.

Point being, there are enough contradictory texts to make your religion say anything you want.

The difference, of course, is that Christian groups like the KKK are a very small minority of that religion, while the "progressive" Muslims who are trying to pull their religion from the Stone Age are also a very small minority.

 

[PapaG]

I dunno. Isolationism of the Muslims has been chipping away constantly for years. More and more they are becoming more "westernized" and rational.

Where? Certainly not in Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc. etc...

The US-sponsored "Arab Spring" has resulted in more draconian and Islamic governments in those countries. Christians are being slaughtered in Egypt in part because of our actions, and rather than do something about it, the media ignores it and acts like it doesn't exist.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

If Islam were woman- or gay-friendly, why would progressive Muslims feel the need to reform Islam?

Well mainstream Islam is male dominated and anti-gay, so you can see why some folks are trying to reform it.

I think it's great that followers are trying to make changes to the practice of Islam. Hopefully they can drag it closer to the norms of Western society.

For the Muslims in the West, sure. For Muslims in non-Western nations, I wouldn't expect them to reform Islam to the whims of Western society.

I dunno. Isolationism of the Muslims has been chipping away constantly for years. More and more they are becoming more "westernized" and rational.

I like how westernized = rational. Way to be unabashedly western-centric.

The difference, of course, is that Christian groups like the KKK are a very small minority of that religion, while the "progressive" Muslims who are trying to pull their religion from the Stone Age are also a very small minority.

The only part of Islam that's in the stone age are the fundamentalists, which are also a minority.

Where? Certainly not in Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc. etc...

No, not "etc. etc..."

Egypt is very westernized, even with the results of the Arab spring. Lebanon as well. Afhganistan, Libya and Pakistan? Way to cherry pick. What about Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, UAE, Qatar, Oman, Kuwait and Bahrain? What about Turkey and Indonesia? What about large sections of Eastern Europe? The Muslim world is huge, and the majority of it is westernizing in order to be a part of the world market.

The US-sponsored "Arab Spring" has resulted in more draconian and Islamic governments in those countries. Christians are being slaughtered in Egypt in part because of our actions, and rather than do something about it, the media ignores it and acts like it doesn't exist.

Draconian and Islamic aren't the same thing. Egypt's struggle is far from over. The new governments of Libya and Tunisia are still being put together. The point was to get rid of dictators and let the people decide for themselves (lol "democracy.") And it turns out they decided on Islamic governments.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier

 

[crandc]

It's true that now, in the 21st century, KKK types are a minority of Christians. For that matter, so are the raging homophobes. But that sure was not always the case.

I have not taken scientific polls of the world's Muslims so really can't say where 1 billion or so individual Muslims stand (as opposed to official doctrine).

BTW, just to show someone is watching, after my first reply I saw ads for Muslim singles dating services. Wonder if they are gay friendly?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Where? Certainly not in Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, Lebanon, Pakistan, etc. etc...

The US-sponsored "Arab Spring" has resulted in more draconian and Islamic governments in those countries. Christians are being slaughtered in Egypt in part because of our actions, and rather than do something about it, the media ignores it and acts like it doesn't exist.

I've read a dozen articles like this: http://www.muslimleadersoftomorrow.org/images/uploads/doha_pr.pdf

And some from mainstream rags.

I have to say when you think you're right, nothing stands in your way.

 

[Ed O]

I like how westernized = rational. Way to be unabashedly western-centric.

Of course I'm western-centric. Not every value system is equally rational, and I think that ours (in its many flavors) is far from perfect but it's far superior to one that institutionally beats women and kills homosexuals for being gay.

Ed O.

 

[PapaG]

I've read a dozen articles like this: http://www.muslimleadersoftomorrow.org/images/uploads/doha_pr.pdf

And some from mainstream rags.

I have to say when you think you're right, nothing stands in your way.

You didn't even try to address my post, the countries I listed, and the results of the US-led intervention and removal of governments in some of those countries. What was I supposed to gather from your post? That there are forward-thinking people who practice Islam? That's pretty much assumed, isn't it? Becoming Westernized doesn't mean that the entire religion is changing, though. Plus, you should probably read up on the efforts Muslims to enact Sharia Law in western nations, with Great Britain and Norway two very good examples.

 

[PapaG]

Of course I'm western-centric. Not every value system is equally rational, and I think that ours (in its many flavors) is far from perfect but it's far superior to one that institutionally beats women and kills homosexuals for being gay.

Ed O.

I think it can also be assumed that the young people/reformists in the original post have been influenced by the examples they have seen and lived in a "westernized" society.

 

[crandc]

Now, I am wondering. Because frankly there are a hell of a lot of posters here who are anything but gay-friendly and pro-feminist. So do they think gay friendly pro feminist Muslims are a really bad idea? Better or worse than (for lack of a better term) more "traditional" Muslims? I mean, do these individuals consider gay friendly and pro feminist Christian churches a good thing, as opposed to, say, Focus on the Family type homophobes and anti-family planning fanatics? When you saw the all male religious panel testifying against birth control, did you like or unlike? Because, you know, Muslims hardly have the corner on anti-gay and anti-woman policies; it is the Christian churches who are sponsoring the kill the gays bill in Uganda, with support from American Christians. Not Ugandan Muslims.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Now, I am wondering. Because frankly there are a hell of a lot of posters here who are anything but gay-friendly and pro-feminist. So do they think gay friendly pro feminist Muslims are a really bad idea? Better or worse than (for lack of a better term) more "traditional" Muslims? I mean, do these individuals consider gay friendly and pro feminist Christian churches a good thing, as opposed to, say, Focus on the Family type homophobes and anti-family planning fanatics? When you saw the all male religious panel testifying against birth control, did you like or unlike? Because, you know, Muslims hardly have the corner on anti-gay and anti-woman policies; it is the Christian churches who are sponsoring the kill the gays bill in Uganda, with support from American Christians. Not Ugandan Muslims.

Comedic gold.

 

[PapaG]

From the other side of the spectrum:

http://news.yahoo.com/10-arrested-french-raids-radical-islamists-source-052950420.html

French police swooped on suspected radical Islamists in pre-dawn raids for the second time in less than a week Wednesday, arresting 10 people, a source close to the investigation said
.
The raids were carried out in the southern port city of Marseille as well as Roubaix near the Belgian border, and in several other locations in the country's south and southwest, the source said.

They came as 13 suspected Islamists arrested last week were charged with "criminal conspiracy connected to a terrorist enterprise" and illegal possession and transportation of weapons.

The 13, some of whom are members of a suspected extremist group called Forsane Alizza that was banned this year, were among 19 suspects arrested on Friday in the wake of attacks by an Islamist gunman who killed seven people.

Nine of these, including Forsane Alizza leader Mohamed Achamlane, were ordered to be remanded in custody as police investigate their alleged crimes which include a plan to kidnap a judge, officials said.

French authorities vowed a crackdown on Islamist extremists after self-confessed Al-Qaeda follower Mohamed Merah was shot dead in a police siege following the killing spree, in which three children died.

The killings shocked the nation and came just weeks before France's hotly-contested presidential election, with security becoming a major campaign theme and President Nicolas Sarkozy closing the gap in opinion polls on his main rival, Socialist Francois Hollande.

Continued at link...

But hey, at least there are a few handfuls of Muslims in the USA stepping into the 20th century. Will the 21st century be next?

 

[PapaG]

Much work to be done, but two things I noticed. One, the bomber was a female, which is progress, and two, they were celebrating the re-opening of a re-modeled theatre, which is "westernized".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-suicide-bomber-blows-up-Somalia-theatre.html

At least five people including top sporting officials were killed and dozens injured when a teenage female suicide bomber sent by Somalia's al-Qaeda-linked al-Shabaab blew herself up during a VIP celebration at Mogadishu’s newly-reopened National Theatre.

bdiweli Mohamed Ali, Somalia’s prime minister, was at the podium giving a speech when the girl detonated her explosives, at 11am local time on Wednesday.

Mr Ali was unharmed, but there were reports that one of the five government ministers also attending the event was slightly injured, as were two MPs.

At least five people died, including the presidents of the Somali Football Federation, the head of the country’s Olympic Committee, and a television cameraman, according to eye-witnesses.

Bodies were strewn across a large area as ambulances and private vehicles began ferrying the wounded to hospital.