Worse draft pick?

[RoyToy]

Just for the argument, Oden's Per 36 was 16.7pts/G and 12.8reb/G with 3.4 blk/G

I don't view Per 36 as some great stat, but it does give you an idea of his productivity level, and it's right there with Dwight's second season.

 

[Denny Crane]

Dwight Howard put those numbers up in 37min per game. Oden put up 11/9 in 23min per game. The only thing holding Oden back at that point was foul trouble, but that would have worked itself out.

Sorry, nice try.

And besides, again, the first season was mostly a wash as it takes two years to fully recover from MF surgery and at the point he was only at 1 year.

He's never put up 15/12, and possibly never will. Dwight Howard is in the discussion for MVP. There is no comparison.

For your sake and the sake of my friends on this board, I wish it were different.

 

[PapaG]

no but tracy mcgrady was

Durant has led his team to a WCF.

McGrady never won even a first-round series.

McGrady had one incredible season at age 23. Of course, it took a 35.2 USG rate to get him there, and it wasn't enought to even win a series for him. Still, it was a great season. Too bad he never came close to it again.

 

[RoyToy]

He's never put up 15/12, and possibly never will. Dwight Howard is in the discussion for MVP. There is no comparison.

For your sake and the sake of my friends on this board, I wish it were different.

Well obviously there is no comparison as Oden's career hits new lows with each passing month. If he had stayed healthy the comparisons would be there.

That said, to get back to my original point, Oden had the potential to impact the game just as much as Durant has. He's just never been healthy enough, nor will he ever at this point to do so. No one will argue that.

 

[PapaG]

Just for the argument, Oden's Per 36 was 16.7pts/G and 12.8reb/G with 3.4 blk/G

I don't view Per 36 as some great stat, but it does give you an idea of his productivity level, and it's right there with Dwight's second season.

Oden's Per 36 was also 6.0 fouls. Dude never put it together enough to stay on the court.

 

[RoyToy]

Oden's Per 36 was also 6.0 fouls. Dude never put it together enough to stay on the court.

Good thing players are given 6 fouls per game

Like I said in the post, I don't view Per 36 as some great statistic. It does give you an idea of how productive he could have been, though.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Might make the Hall of Fame? He's 23 years old.

Barring some sort of fluke tragedy, Durant's a lock already for the Hall of Fame, and even then, he may make it based on his incredible start to his career.

incredible start to his career? should mcgrady make it for the incredible start to his?

you could make the exact same argument for mcgrady at age 23, in fact more so, since he was having a better career at that point, putting up a higher per, higher winshares/48, higher rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and less turnovers/36, WITH A LOWER USAGE RATE, not to mention a higher PER in the playoffs

and then his age 23 season is completely bonkers. completely

btw, as of yesterday, mcgrady has a higher career per than durant!

Durant has led his team to a WCF.

McGrady had one incredible season at age 23, and it wasn't enought to even win a series for him.

show me a player on that magic team that played even half a season with a per higher than 15, while durant had 3 other starters over 15 that played all 82 games, including westbrook, who matched his 23.6 per

you seem to think that the hall of fame is a lock for him, but it doesnt always turn out that way. although i think mcgrady will eventually make it in

 

[3RA1N1AC]

im not hating on durant as much as hyping mcgrady, but lets not get carried away peoplez

 

[MickZagger]

Just for the argument, Oden's Per 36 was 16.7pts/G and 12.8reb/G with 3.4 blk/G

I don't view Per 36 as some great stat, but it does give you an idea of his productivity level, and it's right there with Dwight's second season.

lol. Another stat you post when it works in your favor. I've brought up Batum's Per 36 in the past and you mocked me.

 

[RoyToy]

lol. Another stat you post when it works in your favor. I've brought up Batum's Per 36 in the past and you mocked me.

Show me

Also realize I even said in my own post that I don't view it as some great stat

Looks like I mocked myself then

Sigh............................................

 

[MickZagger]

Show me

Also realize I even said in my own post that I don't view it as some great stat

Looks like I mocked myself then

Sigh............................................

Why even bring it up in your argument if your going to put a disclaimer that you don't think its a great stat?

 

[PapaG]

im not hating on durant as much as hyping mcgrady, but lets not get carried away peoplez

MacGrady's best season statistically was a 42-40 season for his team. Unfortunately, some great players get stuck on bad teams while they're healthy. TMac never led a team out of the first round of the playoffs. That does matter in terms of assessing greatness, just as winning a title does.

 

[jlprk]

[Zach Randolph] was a headache for coaches in the years after he left the Blazers

Not true. Any links or evidence? Wherever he went, the local media read his Oregonian clippings and gave him a short leash. But they couldn't get anything on him, the same as the Oregonian. He talks in ghetto slang so racists hate him.

 

[handiman]

Seriously. I probably watched him play 20+ games for the Blazers. I was impressed with his size and athleticism, but he didn't seem very skilled. I saw him in college and he looked like a man among boys. it was hard to see any real skills; similarly they raved about Tyson Chandler who was a giant among boys in HS.

Did you miss the NCAA title game where two of the best future big mean in the East (Horford and Noah) couldn't slow him down? He was a man among men when healthy.

 

[RoyToy]

Oden seemed to have Noah's number. Always played well against that......well, whatever you want to call him.

 

[Denny Crane]

Did you miss the NCAA title game where two of the best future big mean in the East (Horford and Noah) couldn't slow him down? He was a man among men when healthy.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Greg-Oden-237/

What’s been most concerning so far is the almost complete lack of fluidity that Oden is displaying on the offensive end. He’s very mechanical in the post, being highly predictable with his moves and not looking flexible enough to react to what defenses are throwing at him and counter with any kind of polish. Looking at the way he is scoring his points, it’s hard to get any kind of feeling that what he’s doing at the college level will fly in the NBA in the least bit, as his entire game is based off overpowering shorter, weaker and less athletic opponents and scoring almost exclusively within 5 feet of the hoop. At age 18, he still has plenty of room to grow as a player, meaning he’ll likely learn how to use his body better in the post, get better at taking the ball up strong to the basket, and improve his footwork-- but there are certain traits in an athlete that are just innate, and we aren’t seeing them at all from him so far.
- Durant Eclipses Oden on DraftExpress Mock Draft – 2/3/07

Offensively, while he showed some great flashes, there are still too many long stretches in which he is almost completely silent, not calling for the ball despite his obvious natural advantages over the weak frontcourts the Big Ten has to offer, and struggling to create offense for himself on a consistent basis when he does get the ball. He had quite a few awkward and mechanical moves with his back to the basket where he just bulldozed his smaller and weaker man over using his brute strength to somehow throw the ball in the rim or get to the free throw line, but it’s hard to see these types of moves translating over effectively to the NBA. He still needs to work on his counters to expand his arsenal of tricks with which he can finish with, but at age 18, he’s not doing poorly for himself at this point.
-NBA Draft Stock Watch: Conference Tournament Week (Part Two) -3/13/07

 

[RoyToy]

Sounds like Dwight Howard at 18

The productivity level was there and can't be ignored.

 

[mook]

Did you miss the NCAA title game where two of the best future big mean in the East (Horford and Noah) couldn't slow him down? He was a man among men when healthy.

I almost never watch college hoops, but I remember that game. Those guys were just bouncing off him. His performance in that game was impressive at the time, but with hindsight looks even more epic.

That's the guy I thought we were drafting.

*sigh* How come this shit never happens to the Lakers?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I almost never watch college hoops, but I remember that game. Those guys were just bouncing off him. His performance in that game was impressive at the time, but with hindsight looks even more epic.

That's the guy I thought we were drafting.

*sigh* How come this shit never happens to the Lakers?

Like David Stern taking a championship away from them by killing the Paul trade.

 

[RoyToy]

[video=youtube;Wts9V9kIKH4]

Look at how well he moved back then. Sigh.......

And he was actually built like a basketball player, not the top heavy version we got

 

[julius]

Like David Stern taking a championship away from them by killing the Paul trade.

yeah, after they won 5 in the last 11 years. Poor Lakers.

 

[Minstrel]

Unlike Bowie, I think Oden was the right pick at the time based on what was knowable then. If one could go back in time and make the pick a-new, of course you select Durant.

Bowie was the wrong pick to make, but not due to the results. If you take Michael Jordan and he suffers a career-ending injury in his first season, that wouldn't have made it the wrong pick. Bowie was the wrong choice because he wasn't the most talented player left on the board. Even at the time, people knew Jordan was more talented. It was out-dated "wisdom" like "you take big over small" and selecting need over talent that led to Bowie's pick.

On the other hand, Oden was viewed as the best player in the draft. Not by a lot, but everything I read suggested that scouts considered Oden as much of a slam-dunk first selection as they'd ever seen. And I still think they were correct in their talent appraisal...injuries derailed his career, not a lack of talent.

 

[HailBlazers]

Well said as always Minstrel.

 

[Denny Crane]

Unlike Bowie, I think Oden was the right pick at the time based on what was knowable then. If one could go back in time and make the pick a-new, of course you select Durant.

Bowie was the wrong pick to make, but not due to the results. If you take Michael Jordan and he suffers a career-ending injury in his first season, that wouldn't have made it the wrong pick. Bowie was the wrong choice because he wasn't the most talented player left on the board. Even at the time, people knew Jordan was more talented. It was out-dated "wisdom" like "you take big over small" and selecting need over talent that led to Bowie's pick.

On the other hand, Oden was viewed as the best player in the draft. Not by a lot, but everything I read suggested that scouts considered Oden as much of a slam-dunk first selection as they'd ever seen. And I still think they were correct in their talent appraisal...injuries derailed his career, not a lack of talent.

So the blazers used outdated wisdom and selected big with potential over small with demonstrated skills.

Great post.

 

[Minstrel]

So the blazers used outdated wisdom and selected big with potential over small with demonstrated skills.

In 1984, yeah. Shame, that. Though I'd disagree with you and say that the 1984 Blazers selected big with potential over small with much more potential.

In 2007, the Blazers selected the player with the most talent, according to all the scouts, and lots of demonstrated skill. But injuries can fell the greatest talent.

And thanks! I thought it was a well-articulated post, too.

 

[Denny Crane]

In 1984, yeah. Shame, that. Though I'd disagree with you and say that the 1984 Blazers selected big with potential over small with much more potential.

In 2007, the Blazers selected the player with the most talent, according to all the scouts, and lots of demonstrated skill. But injuries can fell the greatest talent.

And thanks! I thought it was a well-articulated post, too.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Greg-Oden-237/

What’s been most concerning so far is the almost complete lack of fluidity that Oden is displaying on the offensive end. He’s very mechanical in the post, being highly predictable with his moves and not looking flexible enough to react to what defenses are throwing at him and counter with any kind of polish. Looking at the way he is scoring his points, it’s hard to get any kind of feeling that what he’s doing at the college level will fly in the NBA in the least bit, as his entire game is based off overpowering shorter, weaker and less athletic opponents and scoring almost exclusively within 5 feet of the hoop. At age 18, he still has plenty of room to grow as a player, meaning he’ll likely learn how to use his body better in the post, get better at taking the ball up strong to the basket, and improve his footwork-- but there are certain traits in an athlete that are just innate, and we aren’t seeing them at all from him so far.
- Durant Eclipses Oden on DraftExpress Mock Draft – 2/3/07

Offensively, while he showed some great flashes, there are still too many long stretches in which he is almost completely silent, not calling for the ball despite his obvious natural advantages over the weak frontcourts the Big Ten has to offer, and struggling to create offense for himself on a consistent basis when he does get the ball. He had quite a few awkward and mechanical moves with his back to the basket where he just bulldozed his smaller and weaker man over using his brute strength to somehow throw the ball in the rim or get to the free throw line, but it’s hard to see these types of moves translating over effectively to the NBA. He still needs to work on his counters to expand his arsenal of tricks with which he can finish with, but at age 18, he’s not doing poorly for himself at this point.
-NBA Draft Stock Watch: Conference Tournament Week (Part Two) -3/13/07

 

[Minstrel]

I was talking about the professional scouts employed in the NBA that were referenced between 2005 and 2007. While I'm sure there was the occasional dissenting scout, it seemed pretty clear that the consensus was the Oden was the top talent.

My position is not that it is 100% certain that he was the right pick, since I'm not privy to his medical reports from 2007 nor do I have doctors in my employ to analyze them. Based on what I saw from scouts (from long before I had any idea that the Blazers would even have a shot at him), he seemed like the right pick based on talent. I can make peace with that kind of selection, even if it fails. I'd have a lot more problem with a Kwame Brown pick (controversial at the time among scouts, from my recollection) or a Sam Bowie (for reasons gone into earlier).

 

[Denny Crane]

The scouts said similar things about OJ Mayo in HS. College was a one year thing because of the new NBA rule.

On draft night, I was quite certain this was Bowie version 2.0.

 

[handiman]

The scouts said similar things about OJ Mayo in HS.

B.S. Mayo and Oden weren't anywhere near each other in terms of perceived "can't miss-ness."

On draft night, I was quite certain this was Bowie version 2.0.

Everyone's a Durant revisionist now. It's an empty claim unless you can point to an old post where you said that at the time. We'll just have to trust you that it wasn't edited after the fact.

 

[blue32]

After seeing those videos its crazy to see how much upper body weight Greg put on. I cant help but wonder if that complicated his recovery. He looks like a completely different person back in college.