Worst Economic Collapse Ever?

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ABM

Happily Married In Music City, USA!
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Oh, my....hope this guy is off.......WAY off..........

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Aint that a kick in the head..

It's pretty bad but I don't think it's the Doomsday-bad like the media is making it out to be.
 
we're still in the beginning stages of the shit coming down.

So true. We haven't even hit the inflationary stage of the recession/depression yet, but it's coming. That's when China and Japan start pulling out of the US dollar, and that's when stuff really starts to hit the fan. Until then, we'll continue to see crime rates increase and unemployment rise.
 
i still think we're still 2 years before all the really bad loans are getting defaulted on. People still have money...as the economy gets worse, they won't...and their loans reset then everyone is fucked.

People are staying afloat right now I imagine...but more and more aren't...i'm talking about the folks who bought their houses on risky loans hoping to flip in 5 years on that sweet equity they so lusted after. The ones who figured their incomes would rise exponentially.

oh yeah, america is gonna take it up the butt hard.

i don't know how much more crime will rise though. while no money may cause more property crimes, i'm not sure if it will actually all materilize.
 
i still think we're still 2 years before all the really bad loans are getting defaulted on. People still have money...as the economy gets worse, they won't...and their loans reset then everyone is fucked.

People are staying afloat right now I imagine...but more and more aren't...i'm talking about the folks who bought their houses on risky loans hoping to flip in 5 years on that sweet equity they so lusted after. The ones who figured their incomes would rise exponentially.

oh yeah, america is gonna take it up the butt hard.

i don't know how much more crime will rise though. while no money may cause more property crimes, i'm not sure if it will actually all materilize.

My crime comment was anecdotal. Twice in the past month, vehicles have followed parents into my youngest daughter's daycare lot, parked, and smashed out windows of cars to snatch the purses of Moms who ran their kid inside. So incredibly bold that it defies normal criminal logic.

We don't live in a bad area, either.

Also, I think we'll start to see "good loans" defaulted on over the next two years. People who have never missed a payment are going to see their situation dramatically start to change. I honestly can't make any sense of the Obama "stimulus" plan. Why not just cut capital gains and corporate taxes if the idea is to jumpstart the economy?
 
Unfortunately, the president is raising taxes 35% for money made off investments and dramatically raising taxes for all corps like PGE for any & all coal, natural gas and oil burning. Those utility stocks are supposed to be the backbone of the market in depressions and now they tanking fast as a result of the new taxes. Also, the 35% raise in investment taxes will scare away many potential investors (like me).

I know we need new streams of revenue, but this isn't the time or place for these.

We're sinking fast.
 
"... We are going to have crime waves like Mexico City..."
Jesus!
 
My crime comment was anecdotal. Twice in the past month, vehicles have followed parents into my youngest daughter's daycare lot, parked, and smashed out windows of cars to snatch the purses of Moms who ran their kid inside. So incredibly bold that it defies normal criminal logic.

We don't live in a bad area, either.

Also, I think we'll start to see "good loans" defaulted on over the next two years. People who have never missed a payment are going to see their situation dramatically start to change. I honestly can't make any sense of the Obama "stimulus" plan. Why not just cut capital gains and corporate taxes if the idea is to jumpstart the economy?
I would think because capital gains taxes are already quite low. Economist's would tell you that lowering already low taxes would have very little, if any, impact on behavior. Additionally, what or who have net positive gains? No one is paying gains taxes right now anyway.

Corporate taxes could be lowered, but since they are currently hoarding cash, there would be very little "stimulus".


Yesterday, in Portland (Sylvan, not a "bad" area at all, far from the areas where the marginal congregate), in the middle of the day, in our office parking lot, a thief smashed a car window and stole a laptop. We have had night crimes in the past (though not for years). Not middle of the day crime. That is new.

And don't count on the government to be able to do anything much about it. Cutbacks and layoffs of police are already happening.
 
Yesterday, in Portland (Sylvan, not a "bad" area at all, far from the areas where the marginal congregate), in the middle of the day, in our office parking lot, a thief smashed a car window and stole a laptop. We have had night crimes in the past (though not for years). Not middle of the day crime. That is new.

And don't count on the government to be able to do anything much about it. Cutbacks and layoffs of police are already happening.

Who the hell is stupid enough to leave a laptop around like that in a car?
 
Who the hell is stupid enough to leave a laptop around like that in a car?

False sense of security from living in areas that don't see such blatant criminal action. The two incidents I posted about at my daughter's daycare were so brazen they defy logic. Car follows a mom in, parks beside, bashes out window, and then has to leave through a one-lane entrance. It would be so easy to be blocked in there without an exit.
 
Just had my company's Mastercard debit card number stolen by some asshole in New York. Fucker bought $900 worth of merchandise today before I had it cut off.

Mother fucking mother fucker.
 
we're still in the beginning stages of the shit coming down.

And, if you listen to this guy, we're doing way better than everyone else!

On a side note, how can I tell if I'm depressed over the economy or just depressed because I live near the most depressed city in the US? :sigh:

One of the scariest things I heard yesterday (Lou Dobbs) is that the median price of a house in the Detroit area is $7,500. That's right, not $175,000 or even $75,000... $7,500 is not a typo. I had no idea how bad things had gotten there.
 
Just had my company's Mastercard debit card number stolen by some asshole in New York. Fucker bought $900 worth of merchandise today before I had it cut off.

Mother fucking mother fucker.


I bet Mastercard will write off those charges for you.
 
False sense of security from living in areas that don't see such blatant criminal action. The two incidents I posted about at my daughter's daycare were so brazen they defy logic. Car follows a mom in, parks beside, bashes out window, and then has to leave through a one-lane entrance. It would be so easy to be blocked in there without an exit.

Exactly right.

The brazeness and stupidity of the crimes mentioned in this thread are the concerning point.

"Smart" criminals are bad, but boil down to an insurance and loss of property problem. Smart criminals avoid people, give themselves plenty of exits so they don't get cornered, and take calculated risks.

Stupid and desperate criminals are how folks get hurt.

As for the false sense of security - I lived in the Midwest as a kid for a few years. A small town. Doors were unlocked. Keys left in ignitions. It was strange having moved there from the big city. Our neighbor across the street would lock their front door only if they left town. That was it. I walked in the back door into the kitchen one summer day. Wondered where everyone was. Took me awhile to remember they were on vacation. They had that security. Of course, those small town cops wouldn't let any person of color they didn't personally know do much without being watched and more. And criminals were rumoured to receive back-alley instant justice. "He fell". Different times.
 
Just had my company's Mastercard debit card number stolen by some asshole in New York. Fucker bought $900 worth of merchandise today before I had it cut off.

Mother fucking mother fucker.

Don't use debit cards.

There is less protection than with credit cards.
 
Don't use debit cards.

There is less protection than with credit cards.

One of those things I've always heard but never internalized.

Until now.

Hope I'm covered. We'll see.
 
It's pretty bad. Must be hard to have to provide for a family right now.
 
One of the scariest things I heard yesterday (Lou Dobbs) is that the median price of a house in the Detroit area is $7,500. That's right, not $175,000 or even $75,000... $7,500 is not a typo. I had no idea how bad things had gotten there.

I'll have the #3 meal and a couple of those detroit houses . . . heck at those prices, go ahead and supersize it.
 
One of those things I've always heard but never internalized.

Until now.

Hope I'm covered. We'll see.

Make sure you report this immediately. Federal law only gives you protection if reported in 48 hours.

If you have a Visa or MasterCard branded debit card, you are currently better off. But, instead of having the law give you your rights, you depend on those companies to give extended rights.

Here are some links:
http://banking.about.com/od/checkingaccounts/a/stolendebitcard.htm
http://banking.about.com/od/checkingaccounts/p/debitvscredit.htm

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...-07/overview/the-dark-secrets-of-debit-ov.htm

http://www.pirg.org/consumer/banks/debit/debitcards1.htm
 
don't they alert you for fraudulent activity? I had fradulent charges reversed on my debit card in the past....visa debit. same protections i thought.
 
don't they alert you for fraudulent activity? I had fradulent charges reversed on my debit card in the past....visa debit. same protections i thought.

This happened to my wife and me about 5 years ago, and it hasn't been explained. We were at Babies R' Us in Tigard, and my wife was checking out while I had our firstborn at the end of the checkstand. Nobody else was around. By the time we got home, which was maybe a half-hour after making another stop without using the card, we had a message from VISA reporting suspicious activity. Sure enough, somebody had somehow got our card number and had the time to reproduce that card and spend $1200 in the area. VISA ate the bill, but the only explanation I have is that somebody was in the parking lot poaching on the store's internet connection, made a dummy card, and went on a spending spree.
 
My credit card company (small credit union) called me 4 different times last year about "suspcious activity" . . . unfortunately they were all legit purchases. They told me sorry for the inconvenience and I told them I was actually pleased they called and they can call anytime they suspect fradulent activity.


I'm surprised how many times I use my credit card and the retailer doesn't ask for ID. I hate the whole credit/debt card idea because it seems so easy to take advantage of if someone got a hold of my info. But like most others, I rely and use the cards frequently because of the convenience factor.
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123612575524423967.html

What Are the Odds of a Depression?

International evidence suggests there is a 20% chance our stock-market crash will lead to much worse.

By ROBERT J. BARRO

Central questions these days are how severe will the U.S. economic downturn be and how long will it last?
The most serious concern is that the downturn will become something worse than the largest recession of the post-World War II period -- 1982, when real per capita GDP fell by 3% and the unemployment rate peaked at nearly 11%. Could we even experience a depression (defined as a decline in per-person GDP or consumption by 10% or more)?
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The U.S. macroeconomy has been so tame for so long that it's impossible to get an accurate reading about depression odds just from the U.S. data. My approach uses long-term data for many countries and takes into account the historical linkages between depressions and stock-market crashes. (The research is described in "Stock-Market Crashes and Depressions," a working paper Jose Ursua and I wrote for the National Bureau of Economic Research last month.)

The bottom line is that there is ample reason to worry about slipping into a depression. There is a roughly one-in-five chance that U.S. GDP and consumption will fall by 10% or more, something not seen since the early 1930s.

Our research classifies just two such U.S. events since 1870: the Great Depression from 1929 to 1933, with a macroeconomic decline by 25%, and the post-World War I years from 1917 to 1921, with a fall by 16%. We also assembled long-term data on GDP, consumption and stock-market returns for 33 other countries, sometimes going back as far as 1870. Our conjecture was that depressions would be closely connected to stock-market crashes (at least in the sense that a crash would signal a substantially increased chance of a depression).

This idea seems to conflict with the oft-repeated 1966 quip from Paul Samuelson that "The stock market has predicted nine of the last five recessions." The line is clever, but it unfairly denigrates the predictive power of stock markets. In fact, knowing that a stock-market crash has occurred sharply raises the odds of depression. And, in reverse, knowing that there is no stock-market crash makes a depression less likely.

Our data reveal 251 stock-market crashes (defined as cumulative real returns of -25% or less) and 97 depressions. In 71 cases, the timing of a market crash matched up to a depression. For example, the U.S. had a stock-market crash of 55% between 1929-31 and a macroeconomic decline of 25% for 1929-33. Likewise, Finland had a stock-market crash of 47% for 1989-91 and a macroeconomic fall of 13% for 1989-93. We found that 30 cases where there were both crashes and depressions were also associated with wars. In fact, World War II is the worst macroeconomic event of the period, with strong U.S. wartime economic growth as an outlier.

In the post-World War II period, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries were strikingly tranquil up to 2008. The worst macroeconomic event in that period came in Finland in the early 1990s. Sweden also faced a financial crisis in the early 1990s, though it reacted quickly and is now being touted as a possible guide for leading the U.S. out of its current economic crisis.

Outside of the OECD, there have been many linked stock-market crashes and depressions since World War II -- including the Latin American debt crisis of the 1980s, Mexico's financial crisis in the mid-1990s, the Asian financial crisis of the late 1990s, and Argentina's financial turbulence that lasted until 2002.

Looking at all of the events from our 34-country history, we find that there is a 28% probability that a "minor depression" (macroeconomic decline of 10% or more) will occur when there is a stock-market crash. There is a 9% chance that a "major depression" (a fall of 25% or more) will occur when there is a stock-market crash. In reverse, the chance that a minor depression will also feature a stock-market crash is 73%. And major depressions are almost sure to have stock-market crashes (our data show the probability is 92%).

In applying our results to the current environment, we should consider that the U.S. and most other countries are not involved in a major war (the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts are not comparable to World War I or World War II). Thus, we get better information about today's prospects by consulting the history of nonwar events -- for which our sample contains 209 stock-market crashes and 59 depressions, with 41 matched by timing. In this context, the probability of a minor depression, contingent on seeing a stock-market crash, is 20%, and the corresponding chance of a major depression is only 2%. However, it is still the case that depressions are very likely to feature stock-market crashes -- 69% for minor depressions and 83% for major ones.

In the end, we learned two things. Periods without stock-market crashes are very safe, in the sense that depressions are extremely unlikely. However, periods experiencing stock-market crashes, such as 2008-09 in the U.S., represent a serious threat. The odds are roughly one-in-five that the current recession will snowball into the macroeconomic decline of 10% or more that is the hallmark of a depression.

The bright side of a 20% depression probability is the 80% chance of avoiding a depression. The U.S. had stock-market crashes in 2000-02 (by 42%) and 1973-74 (49%) and, in each case, experienced only mild recessions. Hence, if we are lucky, the current downturn will also be moderate, though likely worse than the other U.S. post-World War II recessions, including 1982.

In this relatively favorable scenario, we may follow the path recently sketched by Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke, with the economy recovering by 2010. On the other hand, the 59 nonwar depressions in our sample have an average duration of nearly four years, which, if we have one here, means that it is likely recovery would not be substantial until 2012.

Given our situation, it is right that radical government policies should be considered if they promise to lower the probability and likely size of a depression. However, many governmental actions -- including several pursued by Franklin Roosevelt during the Great Depression -- can make things worse.

I wish I could be confident that the array of U.S. policies already in place and those likely forthcoming will be helpful. But I think it more likely that the economy will eventually recover despite these policies, rather than because of them.

Mr. Barro is a professor of economics at Harvard and a fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institution.
 
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