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Embiid for CJ and Nurk?

  • Total voters
    51
It's funny that this has been so neck-and-neck. I think that's a sign of a plausible trade. If everyone was for it on this forum, it's probably wildly in our favor and Philly would never touch it.
 
In our franchise history, the Blazers have never had two bonafide Top 10 players on the roster at one time, so I understand why many feel we're giving up too much value here. While basketball is a team game, it's most definitely dominated by the stars. Pairing another 1st Team All-NBA player alongside Dame may be too much for me to pass up on, and that's coming from someone who desperately wants to win with the current core of Blazers. I really do love the Dame/CJ tandem and how loyal for are to the team, city, and fans.

I mean, look at what adding Davis did to LeBron and the Lakers? Adding Embiid would automatically vault Portland into the upper echelon of the NBA.

I also agree that Nurk isn't far behind Embiid in terms of talent, but Nurk is inconsistent at times and very injury prone. Let's also not forget that Nurk's got only two years left on the team-friendly deal, so he'll likely be looking for a big pay day in the summer of 22. There's a risk in trading for Embiid as well. We all know his injury history and he's definitely not going to play 82 games a season.

Portland would also need to find another shot-creator in light of McCollum's absence in this hypothetical trade. We do not make the WCF without CJ last year. Yes, we can question his shot selection at times, but when push comes to shove, you need players who can create and make their own shot in half-court pressure situations. By his standards, CJ had a bit of a down/static season this year. And who knows, maybe that had to do with all of the injuries and the game by game rotations got messed up?

I would have to see Neil's plan to fill out the roster before I'd say yay or nay to this deal.

I'm torn on this one, folks ...
 
HolyBackboard said:
In our franchise history, the Blazers have never had two bonafide Top 10 players on the roster at one time, so I understand why many feel we're giving up too much value here. While basketball is a team game, it's most definitely dominated by the stars. Pairing another 1st Team All-NBA player alongside Dame may be too much for me to pass up on, and that's coming from someone who desperately wants to win with the current core of Blazers. I really do love the Dame/CJ tandem and how loyal for are to the team, city, and fans.

I mean, look at what adding Davis did to LeBron and the Lakers? Adding Embiid would automatically vault Portland into the upper echelon of the NBA.

I also agree that Nurk isn't far behind Embiid in terms of talent, but Nurk is inconsistent at times and very injury prone. Let's also not forget that Nurk's got only two years left on the team-friendly deal, so he'll likely be looking for a big pay day in the summer of 22. There's a risk in trading for Embiid as well. We all know his injury history and he's definitely not going to play 82 games a season.

Portland would also need to find another shot-creator in light of McCollum's absence in this hypothetical trade. We do not make the WCF without CJ last year. Yes, we can question his shot selection at times, but when push comes to shove, you need players who can create and make their own shot in half-court pressure situations. By his standards, CJ had a bit of a down/static season this year. And who knows, maybe that had to do with all of the injuries and the game by game rotations got messed up?

I would have to see Neil's plan to fill out the roster before I'd say yay or nay to this deal.

I'm torn on this one, folks ...
Click to expand...
Yeah I am torn on this one too. However I cannot pass up the opportunity to get a hall of fame type center next to Dame. CJ and Nurkic aren’t close to hall of fame level. CJ might if he has his own team and Nurkic will be a great center for a franchise but not hall of fame level. With that being said in the last 2 playoff Embiid have played in 22 playoff game compare to Nurkic only getting 4. So even though they’re both injury prone, Embiid will more likely be playing in the playoff and he’s already the better one so it’s a double win. Now if we do this trade there is a problem of lack of shot creater/play maker. What I would love to do is sign and trade Whiteside to Cavs, Drummond to Celtics, and Hayward to the blazers. We can have Hayward be our 6th man. Draft Nico Mannion cause he’s more of a point guard than Simons is. Also draft Omer Yurtseven for depth at center. Sign Marvin Williams and Aron Baynes
Dame/Mannion
Trent/Hood/Simons
Ariza/Hayward/Little
Collins/Williams/Hezonja
Embiid/Baynes/Yurtseven
 
Has the gap between Nurk and Embiid narrowed considerably? I think so, and I love Nurk, but I think Embiid at his best is like a bigger Olajuwon. Can anybody get him to give his best consistently (and stay healthy), though?
 
If Embiid had great health I'd maybe do this, Nurk injury history is concerning. However Embiid is a concern as well.

I prefer Nurk mental attitude, Embiid is a fun guy but not a serious competitor. Maybe that is OK with Dame here to lead. But I prefer Nurk in that regard.

I dont think Philly would take this offer, but I dont really like it for the Blazers either.

I think Dame is set on teaming with CJ, he has earned the right to play out his next few years with the top teammates he wishes.

I want to see us return most of our roster next year but add a big defensive wing role player, that may be all we need to contend. If it doesn't work do a trade by the deadline.
 
Keep what we have. Figure a way to keep Whiteside and Melo. Trade Ariza and our pick to move up and get a SF.

Re-take this poll AFTER Portland wins this year’s NBA title - and with minor tweaking (SF) we succeed in 2020/2021 again!
 
If this trade did happen, the Sixers would instantly be my second-fave team. Simmons and CJ and Nurk? Yes please!
 
If Dames ok with it then so am I. If you really want to win, It can't be all about keeping fan favorites around all the time.
 
This is one of those times I wish we could actually know what other coaches and GMs think. Would anybody outside of Portland actually prefer Nurk to Embiid?
 
I voted that I would do this trade but have changed my mind. I want to trade CJ to the Sixers but I don't want to trade Nurk... I actually think he will be better than Embiid or at least very close to Embiid even as soon as next season, which means we are getting close to no value for CJ on one of the two teams (Milwaukee being the other) that I think would value CJ the most. I want us to trade CJ to the Sixers for Richardson, Harris, the 21st pick and a future 1st. I could be talked out of the future first but I think that is a great value for CJ. If we choose to we can plug Richardson in the two or three (Gary and Ariza would be competing for the other starting wing spot) and we would start Harris at the four which is his best position defensively and makes him even a more potent scoring threat. We upgrade our wing in my opinion just because Richardson's game fits next to Dame's so much better, he's a defensive stopper and a really solid spot up three point shooter that will know his role but can get his own shot when we need it as we saw when we played them in the bubble. Harris is underrated because he's overpaid. When he is playing power forward he is a solid rebounder and defender (better defensively than Melo and probably Zach in today's NBA) where he would be most valuable is offensively. He can hit the three, he can get his own shots and he gets to the hole well. We add two really good players for a guy who is probably better than them just not on this team and we get a draft pick or maybe even two. This trade would also make our rotation very flexible since both Richardson and Harris can play and guard more than one position. Oh and with these two guys but especially with a rotation of Richardson, Gary and Ariza at the wings we would cause these things called turnovers and get these things called transition points, it's a foreign concept to this team but I hear it can make offenses even more efficient and potent (Harris runs the floor on the break well too).
 
blazerkor said:
I voted that I would do this trade but have changed my mind. I want to trade CJ to the Sixers but I don't want to trade Nurk... I actually think he will be better than Embiid or at least very close to Embiid even as soon as next season, which means we are getting close to no value for CJ on one of the two teams (Milwaukee being the other) that I think would value CJ the most. I want us to trade CJ to the Sixers for Richardson, Harris, the 21st pick and a future 1st. I could be talked out of the future first but I think that is a great value for CJ. If we choose to we can plug Richardson in the two or three (Gary and Ariza would be competing for the other starting wing spot) and we would start Harris at the four which is his best position defensively and makes him even a more potent scoring threat. We upgrade our wing in my opinion just because Richardson's game fits next to Dame's so much better, he's a defensive stopper and a really solid spot up three point shooter that will know his role but can get his own shot when we need it as we saw when we played them in the bubble. Harris is underrated because he's overpaid. When he is playing power forward he is a solid rebounder and defender (better defensively than Melo and probably Zach in today's NBA) where he would be most valuable is offensively. He can hit the three, he can get his own shots and he gets to the hole well. We add two really good players for a guy who is probably better than them just not on this team and we get a draft pick or maybe even two. This trade would also make our rotation very flexible since both Richardson and Harris can play and guard more than one position. Oh and with these two guys but especially with a rotation of Richardson, Gary and Ariza at the wings we would cause these things called turnovers and get these things called transition points, it's a foreign concept to this team but I hear it can make offenses even more efficient and potent (Harris runs the floor on the break well too).
Click to expand...

at the risk of polluting the discussion with some stats, here is a comparison of Embiid this season and Nurkic last season:

upload_2020-9-22_14-11-22.png

it's pretty close. And Nurk's initial performance in the bubble offers reason to believe he would have built on his 2018-19 performance if healthy. Now, Embiid is better on offense, while Nurk is a little better on defense. If forced to choose, I'd probably say interior defense and rime protection is a better attribute for a C in the NBA. Nurk has really failed to defend Anthony Davis in the playoffs twice, but I really doubt Embiid would have done better. AD is just a match-up nightmare since he's got big man length but moves like a wing

in other words, if Embiid is an upgrade over Nurkic, I'm not sold on him being a significant upgrade. At least not significant enough to throw CJ into the mix
***************************************************************

as for the trade of CJ for Harris, Richardson, and a 1st, I think that's a pretty significant overpay for CJ, and Philly wouldn't come close to biting

again, forgive the stats, but this last season:

upload_2020-9-22_14-22-52.png

I'm just not seeing any kind of a gap there, and Harris is a year younger than CJ. Now, he has a worse contract for sure (more than 5M/year more), so that's a factor that needs to be calculated. I think the truth is that both are overpaid for what they bring to the floor
 
I'm not interested in trading Nurk ever....Zach, different story...I would trade him ..I'd rather have KAT than Embiid though
 
wizenheimer said:
at the risk of polluting the discussion with some stats, here is a comparison of Embiid this season and Nurkic last season:

View attachment 33648

it's pretty close. And Nurk's initial performance in the bubble offers reason to believe he would have built on his 2018-19 performance if healthy. Now, Embiid is better on offense, while Nurk is a little better on defense. If forced to choose, I'd probably say interior defense and rime protection is a better attribute for a C in the NBA. Nurk has really failed to defend Anthony Davis in the playoffs twice, but I really doubt Embiid would have done better. AD is just a match-up nightmare since he's got big man length but moves like a wing

in other words, if Embiid is an upgrade over Nurkic, I'm not sold on him being a significant upgrade. At least not significant enough to throw CJ into the mix
***************************************************************

as for the trade of CJ for Harris, Richardson, and a 1st, I think that's a pretty significant overpay for CJ, and Philly wouldn't come close to biting

again, forgive the stats, but this last season:

View attachment 33649

I'm just not seeing any kind of a gap there, and Harris is a year younger than CJ. Now, he has a worse contract for sure (more than 5M/year more), so that's a factor that needs to be calculated. I think the truth is that both are overpaid for what they bring to the floor
Click to expand...
Wow I didn’t realize that Nurkic was that close to Embiid. And Nurkic could’ve done a lot better too. I am excited for next year, I think Nurkic will be hitting 3s at a little bit higher rate. And his feel on defense will come back too.
At CJ for Harris, Richardson, 1st, and future 1st is a overpay for CJ. And salary doesn’t even match. If we were to throw in Ariza then that’s pretty close to being fair for both side. If they don’t want to trade a future 1st then that’s fine with me
 
wizenheimer said:
at the risk of polluting the discussion with some stats, here is a comparison of Embiid this season and Nurkic last season:

View attachment 33648

it's pretty close. And Nurk's initial performance in the bubble offers reason to believe he would have built on his 2018-19 performance if healthy. Now, Embiid is better on offense, while Nurk is a little better on defense. If forced to choose, I'd probably say interior defense and rime protection is a better attribute for a C in the NBA. Nurk has really failed to defend Anthony Davis in the playoffs twice, but I really doubt Embiid would have done better. AD is just a match-up nightmare since he's got big man length but moves like a wing

in other words, if Embiid is an upgrade over Nurkic, I'm not sold on him being a significant upgrade. At least not significant enough to throw CJ into the mix
***************************************************************

as for the trade of CJ for Harris, Richardson, and a 1st, I think that's a pretty significant overpay for CJ, and Philly wouldn't come close to biting

again, forgive the stats, but this last season:

View attachment 33649

I'm just not seeing any kind of a gap there, and Harris is a year younger than CJ. Now, he has a worse contract for sure (more than 5M/year more), so that's a factor that needs to be calculated. I think the truth is that both are overpaid for what they bring to the floor
Click to expand...
Now compare their playoff stats this year.
 
wizenheimer said:
as for the trade of CJ for Harris, Richardson, and a 1st, I think that's a pretty significant overpay for CJ, and Philly wouldn't come close to biting

again, forgive the stats, but this last season:

View attachment 33649

I'm just not seeing any kind of a gap there, and Harris is a year younger than CJ. Now, he has a worse contract for sure (more than 5M/year more), so that's a factor that needs to be calculated. I think the truth is that both are overpaid for what they bring to the floor
Click to expand...

damianlillard said:
Wow I didn’t realize that Nurkic was that close to Embiid. And Nurkic could’ve done a lot better too. I am excited for next year, I think Nurkic will be hitting 3s at a little bit higher rate. And his feel on defense will come back too.
At CJ for Harris, Richardson, 1st, and future 1st is a overpay for CJ. And salary doesn’t even match. If we were to throw in Ariza then that’s pretty close to being fair for both side. If they don’t want to trade a future 1st then that’s fine with me
Click to expand...

Sorry guys I totally got lost in that post with the fact that the trade I think of only works if it is CJ and Ariza for Richardson, Harris and the 1st rounder. I do realize that on paper that looks like an overpay by the Sixers but it's my understanding that Elton Brand has been interested in a Simmons, Embiid, CJ combo in the past (Woj said it and others refuted it but since I don't think Neil has ever been trying to trade CJ, I think it's logical that it came from Philly). I also think CJ's statistics are quite misleading because CJ is a bucket getter that's what he does. He is a perimeter scorer and even though the stats don't say so, he's one of the best in the game. The reason why the stats don't match reality is because Dame has such a high usage rate, the offense is geared to get Dame going first and CJ tends to get the ball a lot of times with less than optimal time on the shot clock for a player like him to operate. The numbers that you should mine for accurate stats are those that CJ has put up when Dame has been out. If he was looked at as the main perimeter scoring option (which is what the Sixers need) then I think he would be far more effective. I also think he would be more effective if he was definitively the smaller guard on defense instead of him having to defend bigger guards so often. These are also the reasons that not only do I think CJ's value to teams like the Sixers and Bucks go beyond the numbers but it's also why I think CJ and Dame have to be split up. Neither can guard bigger guards, both need the ball early in the shot clock and both are score first small guards (obviously Dame is the more willing passer). I would likely do the trade without the Sixers sending over a pick but I also think we could get that pick out of them and would need to get it for Neil to give up CJ. With all of the young really good wings that the Sixers have, I think they would give up Richardson in the trade and I think Harris' contract is viewed as a bigger albatross than CJ's but I can't be sure of that.
 
damianlillard said:
Wow I didn’t realize that Nurkic was that close to Embiid. And Nurkic could’ve done a lot better too. I am excited for next year, I think Nurkic will be hitting 3s at a little bit higher rate. And his feel on defense will come back too.
At CJ for Harris, Richardson, 1st, and future 1st is a overpay for CJ. And salary doesn’t even match. If we were to throw in Ariza then that’s pretty close to being fair for both side. If they don’t want to trade a future 1st then that’s fine with me
Click to expand...

Embiid also plays on a team with literally *no* shooting or floor spacing.

Embiid has had to massively change the way he plays to accommodate playing with Ben Simmons.

Simmons holds Embiid back while Dame (and CJ) make the game easier for Nurk.

If you swap Nurk for Embiid I think you’d see a decrease in Nurk’s stats and an increase in Embiid’s for that reason.
 
JoshuaHall said:
Embiid also plays on a team with literally *no* shooting or floor spacing.

Embiid has had to massively change the way he plays to accommodate playing with Ben Simmons.

Simmons holds Embiid back while Dame (and CJ) make the game easier for Nurk.

If you swap Nurk for Embiid I think you’d see a decrease in Nurk’s stats and an increase in Embiid’s for that reason.
Click to expand...
Philly shot .368 from 3 this year, Portland shot .377. That's not THAT big of a difference
 
RR7 said:
Philly shot .368 from 3 this year, Portland shot .377. That's not THAT big of a difference
Click to expand...
Yeah, they shot well but those shooters weren't the kind of guys that defenses converge on to stop on the perimeter, which still leaves the inside clogged for both Embiid and Simmons. CJ would be that guy that teams would have to constantly close out on and he would help with spacing. There's more to it than just the numbers when we are talking about how cohesive an offense is.
 
This is tough but I would not trade CJ and Nurk for Embiid, simply because we are good enough at C that I wouldn’t want to give up assets to upgrade it outside of obtaining KAT or Jokic. We are lucky to have a C as good for that cheap—if we are trading CJ’s salary, I would much rather spend that kind of money on a wing. Nurkic just came back from a year long injury and averaged 17-10-4 with 2 blocks, which no one expected. Next year will also only be his third full year as a starter (four if you consider his DEN-POR year, he did start 60% if his DEN games that year) and will remain cheap for the next two seasons. I can expect him to continue to get better or at the very least hold his trade value due to the cheap contract. I don’t see Embiid’s situation getting better and everything suggests he will continue to get injured for at least 15 games a season.

The only star I would be interested in on PHI is Ben.
 
Buffalo Custard said:
Here's a wild thought. KAT for Embiid. Which team hangs up and throws the phone out the window?
Click to expand...
I had an effectively similar thought. Russell's shooting complements Embiid better than Simmons, and Simmons needs a big who can shoot, and Simmons's defense helps make up for KAT's lack of it. But I really don't think KAT would like the Philly fans... Also, as ehizzy3 pointed out, there's this.
 
I love Jokic. Part of what I love is that his body language gives everything away. If they hit a clutch shot, his entire body slumps.

[oops, wrong thread]
 
Last edited:
RR7 said:
Philly shot .368 from 3 this year, Portland shot .377. That's not THAT big of a difference
Click to expand...

It's the gravity that Lillard creates. They have to cover him way behind the 3 point line. That leaves a ton of space for a big to operate if he gets the right pass. On the other hand you see the defender of Philly's main ballhandler drop back at the free throw line.

Nurkic scores way more assisted points.
 
RR7 said:
Philly shot .368 from 3 this year, Portland shot .377. That's not THAT big of a difference
Click to expand...

Portland Starting Lineup:
40% Dame
38% CJ
40%/37% (Ariza / Collins)
38.5% (Melo)
20% (Nurk)

42% (Trent) - Included because of Ariza not in bubble.

Philly:
29% Simmons
37% Harris
34% Richardson
35% Horford
33% Embiid

Our worst 3pt shooter would be the same as their best. So essentially all 4 players (outside of Nurk / Embiid) on our squad are significantly better shooters than what they have.

Embiid is also forced to play a different style because Simmons ability to shoot is non existent.

So while the overall stats may not seem drastic, if you look at who each player spends most of their time on the court with ... there is a significant difference.

Also, defensive strategies are vastly different. Teams try and take away the 3 from us.

Teams encourage Philly to shoot Js.

So our stats are higher on tougher looks, while I’d wager the 76ers are shooting damn near uncontested 3s as teams pack the paint against Simmons / Embiid / Harris and Horford to a lesser extent.
 
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