Wow... Dwight Jaynes kills Roy..and Roy deserves it

[SlyPokerDog]

Well, get ready for that number to DECREASE. Andre Miller is the one player on this team that actually gets the ball to Greg Oden in the low post - and now he's been demoted and all the fingers are pointing at HIM as the source of all the Blazers problems.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Dwight Jaynes (but I said it last week, too before his column came out). The problem with the 3 guard line-up is NOT Andre Miller - it's forcing Brandon Roy (and Steve Blake) to play out of position. We have yet to see if Roy and Miller can co-exist as a starting backcourt. The big assumption is they can't - I'd like to see that assumption validated (or disproven) by letting them actually start together for a few games and see how it works out.

If not, look for Greg to have a lot of games where he get's 4 - 5 FGA per game - mostly off putbacks, because if there is one thing that HAS been proven, last season and this one so far, it's that neither Blake nor Roy can/will feed Oden the ball in the low post.

BNM

It does seem like Nate set Miller up to fail. I really think that Miller, Roy, Martel, LMA & Oden is the best lineup with the personnel that we currently have available.

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

If we want lineups that work to the various players strengths, we should be starting Joel (to play with Roy/LMA and who doesn't need many/any touches) and have Oden playing with Miller & Rudy on the second unit (which would probably be much more fun to watch).

Gramps...

 

[RoyToy]

Well, get ready for that number to DECREASE. Andre Miller is the one player on this team that actually gets the ball to Greg Oden in the low post - and now he's been demoted and all the fingers are pointing at HIM as the source of all the Blazers problems.

Just looking at Oden's game log real quick.

In the 5 games before the 3 guard lineup, Oden didn't attempt more than 6 shots in any game.

In the 9 games with the 3 guard lineup, Oden attempted 8 or more shots in 7 of the 9 games.

Hmm

One good thing is Oden attempted 9 shots last game so maybe the whole team is looking for him more. We'll see how it goes tonight.

 

[PapaG]

Well, get ready for that number to DECREASE. Andre Miller is the one player on this team that actually gets the ball to Greg Oden in the low post - and now he's been demoted and all the fingers are pointing at HIM as the source of all the Blazers problems.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with Dwight Jaynes (but I said it last week, too before his column came out). The problem with the 3 guard line-up is NOT Andre Miller - it's forcing Brandon Roy (and Steve Blake) to play out of position. We have yet to see if Roy and Miller can co-exist as a starting backcourt. The big assumption is they can't - I'd like to see that assumption validated (or disproven) by letting them actually start together for a few games and see how it works out.

If not, look for Greg to have a lot of games where he get's 4 - 5 FGA per game - mostly off putbacks, because if there is one thing that HAS been proven, last season and this one so far, it's that neither Blake nor Roy can/will feed Oden the ball in the low post.

BNM

The numbers at 82games.com show that the most successful line-up with Oden is Blake/Roy/Webster/LMA/Oden - which just happens to be the current starting line-up.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR12.HTM

For the most recent look, Oden made 7 FGs against the T-Wolves on 9 FGAs. Steve Blake assisted on 4 of these, Brandon Roy on 2, and Juwan Howard on the other. Andre Miller, in a full quarter of PT with Oden, assisted on zero.

 

[maxiep]

Me, too. What can he get for Roy? He's got a pretty big contract, so we'll probably have to package some young prospect.

I think we'd be lucky to get Eddy Curry for Roy. Man, MIXUM was right all along.

 

[Blaze01]

What we should really complain about is the 7 shots a game Oden is getting. That is the travesty.

and who is to blame for that I wonder? I mean the only two guys who I see CONSISTENTLY look to set up Oden in the post are Rudy & Miller, I am not convinced that Blake even knows he is on the team...

Maybe Nate should move Oden back to the 2nd unit, so for 20 minutes a game we can capitalize on the synergy of that group.....

Maybe we need to play Miller less?

Hasn't that wish already been granted? Maybe Blake as well? Ya think?

 

[magnifier661]

The numbers at 82games.com show that the most successful line-up with Oden is Blake/Roy/Webster/LMA/Oden - which just happens to be the current starting line-up.

http://www.82games.com/0910/09POR12.HTM

For the most recent look, Oden made 7 FGs against the T-Wolves on 9 FGAs. Steve Blake assisted on 4 of these, Brandon Roy on 2, and Juwan Howard on the other. Andre Miller, in a full quarter of PT with Oden, assisted on zero.

THIS! Nice one. I love posters that can pull this shit up fast. Thanks brother.

 

[andalusian]

Hasn't that wish already been granted? Maybe Blake as well? Ya think?

Over the last 5 games, Blake and Miller played the same amount of minutes - but Blake produced more. If we are going to give some guard minutes to Rudy (which is not something I am opposed to, if his body can handle more than 30MPG per night) - seems silly to me to take the guy that produced more (Blake) and cut his minutes in favor of the guy that plays the same MPG (32) and produced less.

 

[Blaze01]

Over the last 5 games, Blake and Miller played the same amount of minutes - but Blake produced more.

Really?

Blake 36% FG% Miller 44%

Blake 10.6 pts\g Miller 11.4

Blake 34.4 minutes\g Miller 28.2

Blake 5.8 assists\g Miller 4.6

Blake 3.0 rebounds\g Miller 3.2

Blake 2.0 turnovers\g Miller 2.8

Blake .2 steals\g Miller .6

Blake 8 FT\5g Miller 26

 

[Minstrel]

be sarcastic all you want but you being a complete jackass if you think we dont need a trade

Here I was, trying to get your thoughts on a good Roy deal, and you get hostile. That isn't the rational, balanced MIXUM I know.

Let's try this again: Whom do you think Pritchard should trade Roy for? Please keep it realistic, don't try to grab other teams' best players. I want a reasonable possibility.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I hate to say it, but Jaynes is dead on with a number of points.

Nate is the coach, and he needs to act like it.

Roy is a damn fine player, but there are holes in his game. His refusal to step out of his "comfort zone" to improve in those areas is disturbing.

 

[andalusian]

Really?

Blake 36% FG% Miller 44%

Blake 10.6 pts\g Miller 11.4

Blake 34.4 minutes\g Miller 28.2

Blake 5.8 assists\g Miller 4.6

Blake 3.0 rebounds\g Miller 3.2

Blake 2.0 turnovers\g Miller 2.8

Blake .2 steals\g Miller .6

Blake 8 FT\5g Miller 26

I was looking at a composite (GmSc) which combines their performance into one number for the last 5 games. GmSc is what Hollinger is using when he adds the raw numbers for the calculation of PER. I just roughly added the numbers for the 5 games - and Steve's came ahead of Miller's (not by much, but since they played the same number of minutes...)

During these 5 games Blake's PER for the year has gone from 9.2 (really bad) to around 10.5 (still bad, but he is getting better) while Miller's PER went from 15 to 13.6.

When you add the fact that Steve's usage% is much lower than Miller's, it is not that hard to see that Steve played better in the last 5 games than Andre.

So - yes, really. The numbers you gave us are season long, not the last 5 games.

 

[PapaG]

I hate to say it, but Jaynes is dead on with a number of points.

Nate is the coach, and he needs to act like it.

Roy is a damn fine player, but there are holes in his game. His refusal to step out of his "comfort zone" to improve in those areas is disturbing.

There are holes in every player's game. Roy just has less holes than most players, and his strengths are elite-level; that's why he's an All-Star/All-NBA player. IMO, a GM builds around his best player's strengths and then finds other players to offset said player's weaknesses. KP seems to have taken a different approach by adding Andre Miller, a player who needs the ball to be effective, just like Roy is most effective with the ball.

I've posted it before, but if the idea is to make Brandon Roy more like Rip Hamilton, then why not just trade for Rip Hamilton?

 

[WillG]

Seriously; looking back over the start of this season,
Nate and his two point guard on court, Steve Blake love fest. . . What an absolute disgrace.

Miller is a proven starting quality PG and anyone with half a brain would have been running Miller/Roy at 1/2 from the get go.
When will McNumbskull be held accountable?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Frankly, I think this is outrageous. We should all boycott everything to do with this team, including, of course, this forum, until Roy is traded. MIXUM, as the person who brought this to our attention, we're counting on you to lead the way!

 

[oldmangrouch]

I've posted it before, but if the idea is to make Brandon Roy more like Rip Hamilton, then why not just trade for Rip Hamilton?

And as I've posted before, even Carmelo Anthony (eventually) figured out that there is more to the game than dominating the ball in the half-court. He began doing things like moving without the ball and running the court harder. Did that make him a lesser player, or a better one?

Just for the record, when Drexler first came into the league, he had somewhat the same attitude. Dr Jack quickly broke him of it.

Simply put, Roy needs more "Jerry West" in his game, and less "Kobe."

 

[PapaG]

And as I've posted before, even Carmelo Anthony (eventually) figured out that there is more to the game than dominating the ball in the half-court. He began doing things like moving without the ball and running the court harder. Did that make him a lesser player, or a better one?

Just for the record, when Drexler first came into the league, he had somewhat the same attitude. Dr Jack quickly broke him of it.

Simply put, Roy needs more "Jerry West" in his game, and less "Kobe."

Using Carmelo Anthony is an odd comparison considering he is averaging 21.5 FGA/game, 3 assists, and 3 TOs. Plus, he plays a different position than Roy, yet until this season, he never averaged over 22 PER in a single season. This year he's at 27.5 PER so far, and guess what, he's taking more shots than he has in any other season (outside of 2006-07) and he's averaging 30.5 ppg.

If Anthony is the comparison, then Roy apparently needs to be shooting more than he is right now. Roy averages 5 assists/game this year, and that without having the ball as much as he did last year. If Roy is "selfish", what does that make Anthony and his stellar 1/1 assist/TO ratio?

 

[oldmangrouch]

Using Carmelo Anthony is an odd comparison considering he is averaging 21.5 FGA/game, 3 assists, and 3 TOs. Plus, he plays a different position than Roy, yet until this season, he never averaged over 22 PER in a single season. This year he's at 27.5 PER so far, and guess what, he's taking more shots than he has in any other season (outside of 2006-07) and he's averaging 30.5 ppg.

If Anthony is the comparison, then Roy apparently needs to be shooting more than he is right now. Roy averages 5 assists/game this year, and that without having the ball as much as he did last year. If Roy is "selfish", what does that make Anthony and his stellar 1/1 assist/TO ratio?

I picked Melo as an example, because he is generally regarded as being dumber and more selfish than Roy - and yet even he figured out that he could still "get his", while not constantly having the ball in his hands.

If you prefer the Clyde analogy I'm fine with that too. For all the claims about Clyde being a dumb/lazy player, he learned to play off the ball and take advantage of being teamed with a guy like TP, or Strickland, or Ainge.

 

[Minstrel]

Using Carmelo Anthony is an odd comparison considering he is averaging 21.5 FGA/game, 3 assists, and 3 TOs. Plus, he plays a different position than Roy, yet until this season, he never averaged over 22 PER in a single season. This year he's at 27.5 PER so far, and guess what, he's taking more shots than he has in any other season (outside of 2006-07) and he's averaging 30.5 ppg.

If Anthony is the comparison, then Roy apparently needs to be shooting more than he is right now. Roy averages 5 assists/game this year, and that without having the ball as much as he did last year. If Roy is "selfish", what does that make Anthony and his stellar 1/1 assist/TO ratio?

My understanding was that oldmangrouch was saying that Roy should adjust to playing more off the ball, as Anthony has, not that he should shoot less. Dwyane Wade is also a player who, while he controls the ball quite a lot, has learned to get more points off the ball...going backdoor for passes, getting points off the break and developing a better catch-and-shoot game then he entered the league with.

Roy should handle and control the ball plenty. But I think an important evolution in his game is to be productive offensively playing off others, rather than requiring everyone to play off him almost all the time. It's not about selfishness, it's about being more versatile.

 

[PapaG]

My understanding was that oldmangrouch was saying that Roy should adjust to playing more off the ball, as Anthony has, not that he should shoot less. Dwyane Wade is also a player who, while he controls the ball quite a lot, has learned to get more points off the ball...going backdoor for passes, getting points off the break and developing a better catch-and-shoot game then he entered the league with.

Roy should handle and control the ball plenty. But I think an important evolution in his game is to be productive offensively playing off others, rather than requiring everyone to play off him almost all the time. It's not about selfishness, it's about being more versatile.

I guess I don't see Roy as being unwilling to change. If he were a selfish player, he could become a problem. But even last year, when he "dominated the ball", he averaged as many assists as he is this season. It's his points that have suffered, and his shot attempts, and his trips to the FT line for easy points. There seems to be an all-or-nothing approach around here; either Roy adapt to other players, or other players adapt to him. Frankly, Andre Miller, on surface, seems to be the one unable to change his game IMO. Players need to meet in the middle, and Miller seems unable (or unwilling?) to do so thus far as a Blazer.

Also, Anthony does not have the on-the-ball skills that Brandon Roy has, at least in terms of involving his teammates, so I still don't understand the comparison. If Roy was a ballhog who just chucked up shots, I'd understand.

 

[Minstrel]

I guess I don't see Roy as being unwilling to change. If he were a selfish player, he could become a problem. But even last year, when he "dominated the ball", he averaged as many assists as he is this season. It's his points that have suffered, and his shot attempts, and his trips to the FT line for easy points. There seems to be an all-or-nothing approach around here; either Roy adapt to other players, or other players adapt to him. Frankly, Andre Miller, on surface, seems to be the one unable to change his game IMO. Players need to meet in the middle, and Miller seems unable (or unwilling?) to do so thus far as a Blazer.

I don't think Roy is a selfish player. As to whether he's stubborn about his role, or Andre Miller is, I wouldn't venture to guess. I'm not big on making pop psychological analysis (I'm not implying that you are, just explaining why I wouldn't finger either player) considering I don't see what goes on in practices or behind closed doors.

I do wish a Miller/Roy backcourt had been given a real chance before being discarded as failed. The three-guard lineup was never going to be a permanent feature, so it really wasn't a good trial of Roy and Miller together. If Roy and Miller had been the solid starters for the first several weeks or a month and it was looking rocky, that would give me more confidence that the "Roy and Miller can't co-exist" theory was correct and it was time to try something else. As it stands, though, I still think the "something else" is a Miller/Roy backcourt (with two forwards and a center).

Discarding it without a proper trial is, in my opinion, short-changing both Roy and Miller. It is implicitly saying, "They didn't work well together right off the bat and we have no confidence either can adjust to make it work."

In any case, it's no tragedy. Even if the result ends up being the Blake/Roy backcourt of last year, Miller makes a far, far, far better backup point guard than Sergio Rodriguez. But I think Miller is somewhat wasted in that role, and I'll probably continue to feel that way until it's shown, by a proper trial, that the Blazers' offense is worse with something like a Miller/Roy/Webster/Aldridge/Oden lineup. I think that if Roy could learn to get points on run-outs, catch-and-shoot opportunities and Princeton cuts, Miller would be a net asset. If Roy can't play any other way (successfully) than how he did last year, then fine...bench Miller. But that hasn't been proven, in my opinion.

 

[julius]

I hope Dwight goes to jail for this.

 

[LOTBfan]

all it will take is one blake shoulder injury for them to learn to play together. when there is no option, they will either figure it out or drag each other down, and i think roy is pretty keen on winning.

 

[oldmangrouch]

all it will take is one blake shoulder injury for them to learn to play together. when there is no option, they will either figure it out or drag each other down, and i think roy is pretty keen on winning.

Good point.

Part of the issue here is compatibility of style - but part of it is Roy favoring a friend over the "new kid."

 

[MARIS61]

Unemployed hack has-been Dwight "Big tub of goo" Jaynes is firing blanks as usual.

Roy is a far better player than Miller, and a far better PG than Miller, so Roy starts.

Blake is a far more versatile player than Miller, can spread the court unlike Miller, and can play very well without the ball unlike Miller, so Blake starts.

Finally, after 11 seasons of playing on lousy teams with lousy players who made him look good, Miller is exposed as an average player with severe limitations in his offensive game and no defensive game at all.

He better learn some humility or he'll soon find himself in Jaynes's shoes.

 

[SheedSoNasty]

It's funny when certain posters try to call others "jackasses"

We're playing some good basketball and are 11-5. Sure it's not 16-0, but dammit, we're winning. How can there still be so much doubt?

 

[Blaze01]

Blake is a far more versatile player than Miller, can spread the court unlike Miller, and can play very well without the ball unlike Miller, so Blake starts.

This is why you are a joke....and I don't just mean for your wacky conspiracy theories or Sergio man crush....

WAY WAY off base analysis, but I guess I shouldn't expect anything else from you....typical...

 

[Blaze01]

So - yes, really. The numbers you gave us are season long, not the last 5 games.

No...they are over the last five games (not counting tonight...another great Blake performance)...nice try though...and quite frankly all you would have to do is WATCH the games to realize that Miller has played better than Blake...seriously this shouldn't even be an issue...but some people can't see past thier own love of thier team to see ANY wrong whatsoever.....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=1994

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/profile?playerId=557

Links are right there....

 

[oldguy]

My name is oldguy, and I am a Roy homer.

 

[RudyFor3]

Roy got what he wanted, his $80 million dollar contract. He will not play as hard as he did before this season, that's a fact it's all about him and his offensive scoring output and he has been lazy on defense this season, he's putting minimal effort on the defensive end.

Roy: Steals per game: 06-07 1.20
07-08 1.10
08-09 1.10
09-10: 0.30?? WTF