Yankees Big Players at Winter Meetings?

[JeterRules20]

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/writer...ner-yankees-big-players-at-next-weeks-meeting

Yankees managing partner Hal Steinbrenner and top Yankees executives are lining up meetings at next week's General Manager meetings with agents for multiple big-name free agents, showing strong signs they'll be back as big-time free-agent players.

They are closely eying just about every big-time performer who's free (with one notable exception).

It's interesting that Steinbrenner appears to be at the center of things as the Yankees try to rebound from what was for them a disappointing season. "Hal is very involved, and he wants to win," someone familiar with the Yankees dealings said.

The Yankees have to be considered the favorite to retain star second baseman Robinson Cano, but they are also looking closely as the four players just below Cano on this year's agent list -- Jacoby Ellsbury, Shin-Soo Choo, Masahiro Tanaka and Brian McCann -- and maybe a dozen players, or more, overall.

 

[yankeesince59]

...but but but, "they can't make moves until they know ARod's fate...but but but, "they can't/won't spend over $189 Mil".

 

[JeterRules20]

They have no choice but to make moves while waiting for Arod. Like I said in another post if they wait for the Arod saga to end they will end up with mickey mouse playing 3rd base and me as the catcher and I am just a little over 5 feet tall and weigh 110 pounds soaking wet so you be the judge if you want them to wait or have me and mickey playing next season.

 

[Yblue]

...but but but, "they can't make moves until they know ARod's fate...but but but, "they can't/won't spend over $189 Mil".

I still dont believe they will go over the cap, never did, and won't until they do. They didnt sandbag 2013 only to come this close and blow it all out of the water.
They have plenty to spend, cap or not. They just need to be a little creative and smart for a change if the A-rod thing lingers.

 

[yankeesince59]

They have no choice but to make moves while waiting for Arod. Like I said in another post if they wait for the Arod saga to end they will end up with mickey mouse playing 3rd base and me as the catcher and I am just a little over 5 feet tall and weigh 110 pounds soaking wet so you be the judge if you want them to wait or have me and mickey playing next season.

...yup, and like I said to you in that other thread, I agree with 100% on this. ARod should not be a major factor. The way I see it is for them to go after the FAs that can be had and if if ARod's suspension is upheld, great, they're $25 Mil better off.

 

[yankeesince59]

...if by chance ARod's salary for 2014 is swallowed by his suspension they MIGHT be under the cap...otherwise, they won't be.


...they were $59 Mil over the cap last year...money was/is not a factor.

 

[Majorball]

I think they can be creative also and be close to that number. What is killing this team is the "IFS". If Arod suspension is upheld, If Kuroda comes back, If we are able to retain and sign Cano... Without looking, there is about 45-50 million off the books with those 3. Grandy will answer by Monday if he accepting the offer of 14+. That could be 60 million. You could add, McCann, Infante, Choo, Freese, and a closer for that money. So 5 free agents with those names for a 39 yr old 3B, 39 yr old pitcher, and a Superstar who has an over inflated price of what he is worth perhaps.

So what I am wondering is this. Wouldn't you think they would have a conversation regarding Kuroda's intentions with a date for an answer?

 

[Yblue]

...if by chance ARod's salary for 2014 is swallowed by his suspension they MIGHT be under the cap...otherwise, they won't be.

But dont you see, thats why the A-rod thing matters so much. They yankees are NOT going over that cap. Not after planning for multiple years to get under it and essentially killing last year to do so. A-rod in or out could be the difference in them landing someone like Choo or McCann.

 

[yankeesince59]

...ARod's salary would be a collateral benefit, not a necessity.

 

[Yblue]

...if by chance ARod's salary for 2014 is swallowed by his suspension they MIGHT be under the cap...otherwise, they won't be.


...they were $59 Mil over the cap last year...money was/is not a factor.

Last years' cap doesnt matter. The 2014 cap very much does for the tax reset. Getting below in 2014 would reset the Yankees’ luxury-tax rate from 50% to 17.5%. They will not ignore that, and if you noticed, last year they added almost no one that would impact the 2014 payroll in any significant way.

 

[yankeesince59]

...ahh, I see, they didn't mind forking over $29 Mil in Lux Tax last year, but they suddenly do this year...check.

 

[Majorball]

Is money a concern for the Yankees or not. Resetting the luxury Tax rate is huge for Houston, and the likes. But is it really a concern to a team that is facing considerable damage to its brand. As a 3.3 Billion dollar operation, there is a part of me that says the brand can't take a hit 2 years in a row, hell a negative 5% adjustment in team valuation would be a 165 million dollar loss?

 

[yankeesince59]

Is money a concern for the Yankees or not. Resetting the luxury Tax rate is huge for Houston, and the likes. But is it really a concern to a team that is facing considerable damage to its brand. As a 3.3 Billion dollar operation, there is a part of me that says the brand can't take 2 years in a row, hell a negative 5% adjustment in team valuation would be a 165 million dollar loss?

...why is "resetting the Luxury Tax rate huge for Houston"?...do you even know the Lux Tax works and where the money goes?

 

[Yblue]

...ahh, I see, they didn't mind forking over $29 Mil in Lux Tax last year, but they suddenly do this year...check.

You clearly do not understand how this looming luxury tax limit rest works.
The 2014 payroll is what matters.

 

[Majorball]

You clearly do not understand how this looming luxury tax limit rest works.
The 2014 payroll is what matters.

Help me understand, setting the 2014 rate allows for future spending to be set at 17.5 right? However if an organization's valuation as a business was decreased by 5% because of lackluster play 2 years in a row or more, doesn't the net loss matter more and the Luxury Tax which becomes just a larger operating expense?

 

[yankeesince59]

You clearly do not understand how this looming luxury tax limit rest works.
The 2014 payroll is what matters.

...lmao...you can't in any way educate me about anything BB related......just do what you usually do post/fail/change the context.

 

[yankeesince59]

Help me understand, setting the 2014 rate allows for future spending to be set at 17.5 right? However if an organization's valuation as a business was decreased by 5% because of lackluster play 2 years in a row or more, doesn't the net loss matter more and the Luxury Tax which becomes just a larger operating expense?

...please MB, don't simplify it for him...it only confuses him more.

 

[Yblue]

...lmao...you can't in any way educate me about anything BB related......just do what you usually do post/fail/change the context.

Thats unfortunate because you obviously do not understand the 2014 tax reset.
You speaking about what they spent in 2013 and how much tax they paid last year pretty much show that you have no clue.

 

[Yblue]

Help me understand, setting the 2014 rate allows for future spending to be set at 17.5 right? However if an organization's valuation as a business was decreased by 5% because of lackluster play 2 years in a row or more, doesn't the net loss matter more and the Luxury Tax which becomes just a larger operating expense?

That is the golden question. Ownership didnt seem to concerned with having 1/2 the stadium empty on national TV last year. Just look at how they approached their roster last year. They made sure they didnt impact the '14 payroll. They may say its not a mandate, but I am going to have to see it before i believe it.
There is a Huge difference is a 50% lux tax and a 17% one. Plus i believe with repeat offenders who go over the tax, the tax rate increases each year of the offense. 2014 offers the 1st opportunity for a team like the yankees to hit the reset button.

They have the ability to make some moves and stay under the cap. That gets a LOT better if A-rod goes away. I just dont know if they can go all out to put together a worls series contender and stay under that cap if the A-rod stuff lingers. If could impact a big signing or 2 for sure. They made it clear last year that their goal was the 2014 limit 1st, winning 2nd, despite what they say. I think it will be again. What they need to do is enough to make it look good, or actually get creative with some deferred money contract, smart trades for a change if that is even possible with this farm and GM, but i think the 189 very much matters to them, and it mattered more than winning did last year.

 

[yankeesince59]

Thats unfortunate because you obviously do not understand the 2014 tax reset.
You speaking about what they spent in 2013 and how much tax they paid last year pretty much show that you have no clue.

...no, sorry, but "unfortunately for you", I do understand the 2014 reset...and to address your other faux pas, I was speaking of 2013 money because YOU first brought it up...remember?


...try to keep up.

 

[yankeesince59]

That is the golden question. Ownership didnt seem to concerned with having 1/2 the stadium empty on national TV last year. Just look at how they approached their roster last year. They made sure they didnt impact the '14 payroll. They may say its not a mandate, but I am going to have to see it before i believe it.
There is a Huge difference is a 50% lux tax and a 17% one. Plus i believe with repeat offenders who go over the tax, the tax rate increases each year of the offense. 2014 offers the 1st opportunity for a team like the yankees to hit the reset button.

They have the ability to make some moves and stay under the cap. That gets a LOT better if A-rod goes away. I just dont know if they can go all out to put together a worls series contender and stay under that cap if the A-rod stuff lingers. If could impact a big signing or 2 for sure. They made it clear last year that their goal was the 2014 limit 1st, winning 2nd, despite what they say. I think it will be again. What they need to do is enough to make it look good, or actually get creative with some deferred money contract, smart trades for a change if that is even possible with this farm and GM, but i think the 189 very much matters to them, and it mattered more than winning did last year.

...damage control.

 

[Yblue]

...I was speaking of 2013 money because YOU first brought it up...remember?


...try to keep up.

I did? Where, show me.

I said the sandbagged 2013 to get under the cap for 2014. I didnt say a word about the 2013 payroll outside of making damn sure they didnt add any to 2014 with any signings.

 

[yankeesince59]

...yet more damage control BS...sorry, but you have forced me to minimize you...I have that power.


...babble on...you're no longer worth my time.

 

[Yblue]

...yet more damage control BS...sorry, but you have forced me to minimize you...I have that power.


...babble on...you're no longer worth my time.

Damage control - meaning pointing out that you are an ignorant idiot who can't read yet again. Go ahead, show me where i spoke about the 2013 payroll and how much they spent last year.

 

[Majorball]

I guess what I am personally having a problem with is what is the bottom line from a business perspective. Luxury Tax is no more than a line item on the P/L. If I was an owner or shareholder, I would want my valuation to maintain or if possible, increase. And I have no dog in the fight, but I have always believe that the cap figure was merely an estimate for the Yankees, not an actual number because if we go through 2 or 3 or 4 years, that current valuation could significantly drop. If I am an owner, which one is more fiscally responsible, the luxury tax or the valuation. I see the payroll and luxury tax as a mere line item on the p/l that needs to be manage responsibly but with the bottom line being the ultimate pot of goal, especially if some rumors are true about the family wanting to sell the Yankees. That is where I feel the club got caught with there pants down. If Tex, Jeter and Granderson were all healthy last year, the results on the field would have been different. Because of all the injuries and re-injuries, and the lack of a minor league system with AAA talent MLB ready, they were forced to spin doctor the upcoming 2014 approach. I feel it is all smoke and mirrors, I feel they are going to try to spend but there is nothing to say we are as an attractive FA destination as we used to be and money may no longer be enough to acquire the elite FA if they feel that there is a lessor hope for post season play.

 

[Yblue]

Line item or not if a company of any kind can cut 40 mill off their tax bill they will. That's 40 million or so on an ongoing basis. That is material. Also keep in mind that money goes to other teams who refuse to spend. It's actually a smart decision to get below the limit. What I don't like is hearing Hal said they will always field a championship team. They didn't last year injuries or not. Some of those injuries could have reasonably expected to linger like jeter and Arod. The one real fluke in the bunch was granderson. But championship teams usually have capable catchers. The Yankees never did last year. They didn't fill their holes with options that would maintain the championship caliber approach yet filled then with cheap garbage. The trade for wells was idiotic but cost little toward 2014. No player was traded for or signed that impacted 2014 and I do not believe that was accidental. Personally I am against stupid long term deals and have long said if the team needs to take a step back to move forward I'm all for it. But they are in between. Not committed one way or the other, at least not last year. And worse, long standing problems permeating through the organization like the poor player development and continued uncreative and often damaging approach of the GM is not being addressed. Like you said Hal and company might be looking to sell one day and getting that tax obligation off the books could also be viewed as a clean up item in preparation for that. A year or 2 missing the playoffs is not going to destroy the Yankee brand. The continues path they are leading toward if some of the bigger issues are not fixed might eventually though.

 

[Majorball]

Line item or not if a company of any kind can cut 40 mill off their tax bill they will. That's 40 million or so on an ongoing basis. That is material. Also keep in mind that money goes to other teams who refuse to spend. It's actually a smart decision to get below the limit. What I don't like is hearing Hal said they will always field a championship team. They didn't last year injuries or not. Some of those injuries could have reasonably expected to linger like jeter and Arod. The one real fluke in the bunch was granderson. But championship teams usually have capable catchers. The Yankees never did last year. They didn't fill their holes with options that would maintain the championship caliber approach yet filled then with cheap garbage. The trade for wells was idiotic but cost little toward 2014. No player was traded for or signed that impacted 2014 and I do not believe that was accidental. Personally I am against stupid long term deals and have long said if the team needs to take a step back to move forward I'm all for it. But they are in between. Not committed one way or the other, at least not last year. And worse, long standing problems permeating through the organization like the poor player development and continued uncreative and often damaging approach of the GM is not being addressed. Like you said Hal and company might be looking to sell one day and getting that tax obligation off the books could also be viewed as a clean up item in preparation for that. A year or 2 missing the playoffs is not going to destroy the Yankee brand. The continues path they are leading toward if some of the bigger issues are not fixed might eventually though.

You know you hit the nail on the head I feel. Under King George, the business model was never in question, regardless of the previous years record. With George, it was lead, follow, get out of the way. That has been what has been missing as we have pointed out dating back to the ESPN boards. There is no clear cut direction. Example: If George was alive and well, there would be no talk of the Cap or Luxury Cap I believe. So the question of will the Yankees be Players at the Winter Meetings. I going to say yes, rather they should be or not, Yes, as in the words of Bill Parcells, "You are what you are", and we are Capitalist Pigs, lol!

 

[Yblue]

You know you hit the nail on the head I feel. Under King George, the business model was never in question, regardless of the previous years record. With George, it was lead, follow, get out of the way. That has been what has been missing as we have pointed out dating back to the ESPN boards. There is no clear cut direction. Example: If George was alive and well, there would be no talk of the Cap or Luxury Cap I believe. So the question of will the Yankees be Players at the Winter Meetings. I going to say yes, rather they should be or not, Yes, as in the words of Bill Parcells, "You are what you are", and we are Capitalist Pigs, lol!

Major, i think we are at a crossroads here with Hal and company to see where they really stand. Last year it was pretty clear fielding the BEST team they could was not their #1 goal. Too many questionable moves like bringing Ichiro back ( a cheap option vs a real one), the trade for Wells (useless but again, little impact to 2014 payroll), having no real back up plan for Jeter and others who had injuries that could linger, and going without a catcher does not point to an organization willing to do WHATEVER it takes to win. the 2013 Yankees never were a championship caliber team from the get go. They went half way. Adding payroll for 2013 (unwisely but thats a diff story) but not really improving the team at all. In fact the 2013 team was significantd downgrade to the 2012 team that also felt short. When is the last time we saw that happen?

Hal is saying the same stuff again....the cap is not a mandate and they will blow thorugh if they have to. They didnt show the willingness last year, but with this A-rod stuff lingering they will probably have to face that choice agsint the wall this time. As i detailed, i dont think they will blink now, but they might after watching Boston win.

I just wish i saw more urgency. The lack of changes at the minor league level, and keeping cashman around for what i will never understand does not show me that they felt last year was a failure. They should have, but i think they knew going in that THAT team wasning winning a WS. And that is why the reaction to what happened is what it was.

If they truly have the fire to win like their dad, when faced with the reality of having another substandard product(by yankee standards anyway), vs blowing thorugh that cap, the decision will be easy for them. I question that fire, though and for good reason. We'll see.

 

[RustySpan]

Who should they have gotten in 2013 that would have made a difference? nobody, they didn't make any moves because 2013 was a very shitty free agent class, and trades are simply not as fruitful as they once were.

So blaming Cashman or Hal is lame, I bet you can't name 1 move they could have done that would have made this team significantly better, let alone the 3-4 moves that were really needed.

2014 is a much better class, although the pitching is weak and that's really what they need, but make the bats better and they should be decent, and I have faith NY will do that.

 

[Yblue]

Who should they have gotten in 2013 that would have made a difference? nobody, they didn't make any moves because 2013 was a very shitty free agent class, and trades are simply not as fruitful as they once were.

So blaming Cashman or Hal is lame, I bet you can't name 1 move they could have done that would have made this team significantly better, let alone the 3-4 moves that were really needed.

2014 is a much better class, although the pitching is weak and that's really what they need, but make the bats better and they should be decent, and I have faith NY will do that.

They could have gotten an actual catcher. That helps. They could have gotten a better OF option vs Ichiro. I am not saying any of these potential moves would have been smart, but if we are talking about building a championship caliber team, the yankees did not do that last year. They were in limbo, trying to get below this payroll limit and said as much. I dont know why people are acting like I'm making this up on my own.

I am not "blaming" anyone. I am actually against long term stupid moves to win NOW. What i am talking about is the 2014 budget, and how it has and will impact their moves. The question raised was why should A-rod's case hold up any free agent signings. I think that answer is pretty clear. I simply don't believe Hal when he says "we will do whatever it takes". They didn't last year, so i dont see why we can believe they will now.

By the way, last years class wasnt any better or worse than this year. Grienke, Josh hamilton, Victorino, Aniibal Sanchez,Swisher, Bourne, Edwin Jackson, Adam LaRoach, Cody Ross, Angel Pagan, Napoli, Torii Unter, Martin among others were all free agents. Some fell short of expectations and Josh Hamiliton was a disaster, but we are talking in hindsight now. Many in this upcoming class will be busts too. But if you really think the yankees filled their needs without paying close attention to the 2014 payroll, i dont know what to tell you. Yankees simply were not players.

Now we can start a seperate thread about how stupid Cashman's actual moves were for 2013, but that is not my point here at all.