Yo, Veterns....

[oldguy]

All of you that have served your country in the military....THANK YOU for your service.

 

[jlprk]

And thank you to the majority of young men in the late 1960s, who stayed out of the Vietnam War. More than 50% of us did not volunteer or get drafted, despite appearances and later claims to the contrary that the majority were behind the war. It wasn't easy to stay out, after I passed the daylong draft exam while trying to flunk.

Now my cousin, he joined and was an Army lieutenant. My late cousin. Came back and promptly died from a rare brain cancer in his mid-30s. A few months later, Agent Orange hit the media. Too late for an autopsy.

Up the street from me in the late 60s lived the Merritt family. The kids looked like hippies. Their mother lived with her boyfriend on her husband's paycheck. He was a POW, an officer.

Meanwhile, my father received his Colonel's pension...My uncle had been president of the national Air Force Association...But enough about me. Thank you to those who went to jail over the draft issue. And to the many who were drafted as punishment for demonstrating. One went to my church.

 

[magnifier661]

Hear Hear. My father lost his leg and severely damaged his body for our country. Of all the people, I would suspect he would have a right to complain, yet he was a true patriot and always backed the USA.

 

[magnifier661]

And thank you to the majority of young men in the late 1960s, who stayed out of the Vietnam War. More than 50% of us did not volunteer or get drafted, despite appearances and later claims to the contrary that the majority were behind the war. It wasn't easy to stay out, after I passed the daylong draft exam while trying to flunk.

Now my cousin, he joined and was an Army lieutenant. My late cousin. Came back and promptly died from a rare brain cancer in his mid-30s. A few months later, Agent Orange hit the media. Too late for an autopsy.

Up the street from me in the late 60s lived the Merritt family. The kids looked like hippies. Their mother lived with her boyfriend on her husband's paycheck. He was a POW, an officer.

Meanwhile, my father received his Colonel's pension...My uncle had been president of the national Air Force Association...But enough about me. Thank you to those who went to jail over the draft issue. And to the many who were drafted as punishment for demonstrating. One went to my church.

Okay this is off topic, obviously, but my father was proud to serve our country in the Vietnam War. He volunteered twice. I understand many disagreed with the war, but please don't discredit the ones that cared about this war.

 

[oldguy]

I'd add another big thanks to our service men and women for defending our freedoms, so some can get on their soapbox on Veterans day and sing the praises of draft dodgers. Might as well thank you for defending our right to spit on our military men when they returned from Vietnam, too. In many countries they just kill you for that shit.

 

[toutlaw25]

And thank you to the majority of young men in the late 1960s, who stayed out of the Vietnam War. More than 50% of us did not volunteer or get drafted, despite appearances and later claims to the contrary that the majority were behind the war. It wasn't easy to stay out, after I passed the daylong draft exam while trying to flunk.

Now my cousin, he joined and was an Army lieutenant. My late cousin. Came back and promptly died from a rare brain cancer in his mid-30s. A few months later, Agent Orange hit the media. Too late for an autopsy.

Up the street from me in the late 60s lived the Merritt family. The kids looked like hippies. Their mother lived with her boyfriend on her husband's paycheck. He was a POW, an officer.

Meanwhile, my father received his Colonel's pension...My uncle had been president of the national Air Force Association...But enough about me. Thank you to those who went to jail over the draft issue. And to the many who were drafted as punishment for demonstrating. One went to my church.

Very nice sentiment......................

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

i got to sleep in

 

[jlprk]

I'd add another big thanks to our service men and women for defending our freedoms, so some can get on their soapbox on Veterans day and sing the praises of draft dodgers. Might as well thank you for defending our right to spit on our military men when they returned from Vietnam, too. In many countries they just kill you for that shit.

And in some countries they rely upon veiled violent threats.

Most college students by the late 60s were draft dodgers, and many non students too. For example--My roommate was disappointed to be at our college, because he was a high school valedictorian who had been turned down by the Air Force Academy. Yet when the first lottery happened, and he got a high number, he immediately did all he could to stay out of the draft. He didn't want his now-civilian career delayed. That's an illustration of how almost all college males (3 million at the time) were draft dodgers, even the pro-war ones. The point is that revisionist history now states that "draft dodgers" were small in number, and the younger generation thinks that is the truth.

As for the one incident of spitting on returning military in the Bay Area, that didn't hit the media until several years after it happened. I assume it really happened, though the story came out via angry veteran's groups who felt oppressed. I assume it's been documented, because I haven't read it, but I'm not doubting it.

At the outset of the Iraqi War, there was much "debate" on the ESPN general board, complete with death threats against the majority to be silent. It was basically people who couldn't spell, calling "stupid" all the people with degrees. One Marine invited more militant anti-Iraq War posters than I was to meet him to get beaten up at the Chicago airport, where he could go via Space Available. Once the war turned sour and the proponents fell silent, the board predictably changed its policy and deleted political posts.

 

[toutlaw25]

And in some countries they rely upon veiled violent threats.

Most college students by the late 60s were draft dodgers, and many non students too. For example--My roommate was disappointed to be at our college, because he was a high school valedictorian who had been turned down by the Air Force Academy. Yet when the first lottery happened, and he got a high number, he immediately did all he could to stay out of the draft. He didn't want his now-civilian career delayed. That's an illustration of how almost all college males (3 million at the time) were draft dodgers, even the pro-war ones. The point is that revisionist history now states that "draft dodgers" were small in number, and the younger generation thinks that is the truth.

As for the one incident of spitting on returning military in the Bay Area, that didn't hit the media until several years after it happened. I assume it really happened, though the story came out via angry veteran's groups who felt oppressed. I assume it's been documented, because I haven't read it, but I'm not doubting it.

At the outset of the Iraqi War, there was much "debate" on the ESPN general board, complete with death threats against the majority to be silent. It was basically people who couldn't spell, calling "stupid" all the people with degrees. One Marine invited more militant anti-Iraq War posters than I was to meet him to get beaten up at the Chicago airport, where he could go via Space Available. Once the war turned sour and the proponents fell silent, the board predictably changed its policy and deleted political posts.

Are you insinuating that individuals that join the military do not have degrees, or are somehow not intelligent enough to obtain one?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

You're welcome.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

FREE APPLEBEES: Applebees restaurants across the country are offering free meals to Veterans and active Military on November 11th. Just show proof of military service.

FREE KRISPY KREME: Krispy Kreme is honoring America's service men and women on Veterans Day by giving away free doughnuts to all veterans and active military personnel. Veterans and active military personnel who visit any participating U.S. Krispy Kreme store on Veterans Day will receive one free doughnut of any variety.

FREE OUTBACK STEAKHOUSE: At Outback Steakhouse, all veterans and active duty military will receive a free Bloomin' Onion and beverage on Veteran's Day 2009. Just show proof of military service.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,574065,00.html

 

[Paxil]

Salute to you OldGuy

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

My grandfather was apart of the D-Day invasion in Normandy.

His son was on the frontlines in Vietnam and survived. It was traumatizing as to this day he wont talk about what they did. One day during the summer after he graduated HS he got a letter in the mail - he was drafted to fight in Vietnam as a Marine.

Going back even further, I have the purple heart my g-Grandfather got during WW1. He was shot in Serbia-Montenegro.

 

[BenDavis503]

Great thread. I thank you all as well.

 

[BrianFromWA]

It's kind of cool to see what ESPN's doing--even though they messed up and went to West Point for their studio sets. I mean, nothing against the Woops, but the Hudson River Valley in November? Really?

 

[Paxil]

My grandfather was killed on Sept 4, 1943 in WWII when the boat he was on (LST-473) was bombed. His name is on the Memorial Wall at the Memorial Coliseum.

Last year I got Email from someone whose grandfather served with my grandfather on LST-473. Her grandfather had a photo (of my father as a kid) and a letter that he gathered after my grandfather's death. Somehow it never made it to next of kin. The letter was to my dad. It was heartbreaking.

 

[huevonkiller]

I salute the warriors out there too.

 

[oldguy]

And in some countries they rely upon veiled violent threats.

Most college students by the late 60s were draft dodgers, and many non students too. For example--My roommate was disappointed to be at our college, because he was a high school valedictorian who had been turned down by the Air Force Academy. Yet when the first lottery happened, and he got a high number, he immediately did all he could to stay out of the draft. He didn't want his now-civilian career delayed. That's an illustration of how almost all college males (3 million at the time) were draft dodgers, even the pro-war ones. The point is that revisionist history now states that "draft dodgers" were small in number, and the younger generation thinks that is the truth.

As for the one incident of spitting on returning military in the Bay Area, that didn't hit the media until several years after it happened. I assume it really happened, though the story came out via angry veteran's groups who felt oppressed. I assume it's been documented, because I haven't read it, but I'm not doubting it.

At the outset of the Iraqi War, there was much "debate" on the ESPN general board, complete with death threats against the majority to be silent. It was basically people who couldn't spell, calling "stupid" all the people with degrees. One Marine invited more militant anti-Iraq War posters than I was to meet him to get beaten up at the Chicago airport, where he could go via Space Available. Once the war turned sour and the proponents fell silent, the board predictably changed its policy and deleted political posts.

In the 60’s and early 70’s, if your draft lottery number was a high one, you were not at much risk of being drafted. The higher the number, the less risk. They never called up every draft number, to my recollection. If your friend had a very high number, there was no reason to dodge the draft, because he was not going to be drafted. To then set down an educational path to a civilian career was NOT dodging the draft.

If you legitimately were going to school to get an education, regardless of lottery number, you were not dodging the draft either. Only if you failed to report if your number was called up.

The draft dodgers went to college with the intent of getting a deferment, if they were called up. Lots of those guys chose underwater basket weaving for their majors, and had trouble graduating because they were always partying instead of studying.

Lots of draft dodgers went out of country to avoid the draft, mostly to Canada. Many, if not most, of them drew low numbers in the draft lottery, hence were going into the army, if they didn’t enlist in another branch of the service before the Army called them up. They chose to dodge service by leaving the US.

There were other ways that people chose to dodge the draft. Some purposely tried to fail the medical exam. Some claimed they couldn’t serve because of religious believes when they were not religious.

But they were in the VAST MINORITY. Far and away, most men that were called, reported for duty. To say that there were millions of draft dodgers is just making shit up.

As for you calling current service men and women stupid….it’s a damned same you didn’t meet that stupid marine to see what he had to say. He might have convinced you he wasn’t so dumb.

Veterans ROCK, and if you can’t get there on their day, too fucking bad for you. The good news for you is that you get the benefit of veterans’ (and their families’) service and sacrifices whether you like it or not.

 

[Denny Crane]

My grandfather served in Africa during WW II, and was a boxing champion in the army. My other grandfather was hit by a trolley when he was a kid and walked the rest of his life on wooden legs (couldn't serve). My father was a captain in the Army, a doctor who served at Walter Reed; he was a between the wars age (too young for WW II and Korea, too old for Vietnam).

I was too young (barely) for Vietnam and too old for Gulf War I. I was ready to enlist if we went to war with Iran in the mid 1980s.

I think this thread is a wonderful gesture. I also think it's fine to display anti-war sentiment especially regarding Vietnam.

Peace.

 

[maxiep]

In the 60’s and early 70’s, if your draft lottery number was a high one, you were not at much risk of being drafted. The higher the number, the less risk. They never called up every draft number, to my recollection. If your friend had a very high number, there was no reason to dodge the draft, because he was not going to be drafted. To then set down an educational path to a civilian career was NOT dodging the draft.

If you legitimately were going to school to get an education, regardless of lottery number, you were not dodging the draft either. Only if you failed to report if your number was called up.

The draft dodgers went to college with the intent of getting a deferment, if they were called up. Lots of those guys chose underwater basket weaving for their majors, and had trouble graduating because they were always partying instead of studying.

Lots of draft dodgers went out of country to avoid the draft, mostly to Canada. Many, if not most, of them drew low numbers in the draft lottery, hence were going into the army, if they didn’t enlist in another branch of the service before the Army called them up. They chose to dodge service by leaving the US.

There were other ways that people chose to dodge the draft. Some purposely tried to fail the medical exam. Some claimed they couldn’t serve because of religious believes when they were not religious.

But they were in the VAST MINORITY. Far and away, most men that were called, reported for duty. To say that there were millions of draft dodgers is just making shit up.

As for you calling current service men and women stupid….it’s a damned same you didn’t meet that stupid marine to see what he had to say. He might have convinced you he wasn’t so dumb.

Veterans ROCK, and if you can’t get there on their day, too fucking bad for you. The good news for you is that you get the benefit of veterans’ (and their families’) service and sacrifices whether you like it or not.

Can someone lift the restriction for rep points and just give OldGuy 1,000 of them?

My deepest thanks to all the veterans out there. Your service has not only defended this country and kept it free, but also liberated more people than any other country in human history.

 

[jlprk]

Okay this is off topic, obviously, but my father was proud to serve our country in the Vietnam War. He volunteered twice. I understand many disagreed with the war, but please don't discredit the ones that cared about this war.

Re-read Post #2. I didn't criticize even civilians pushing the war, much less active duty military. Instead, I praised the side who were against the Vietnam war, and who slowly became the majority. Today it's the vast majority, not a slight 51% one, and includes most who were in favor of the war at the time.

Might as well thank you for defending our right to spit on our military men when they returned from Vietnam, too.

You know full well, but I'll remind you. You brought that up. I didn't say that.

 

[jlprk]

At the outset of the Iraqi War, there was much "debate" on the ESPN general board, complete with death threats against the majority to be silent. It was basically people who couldn't spell, calling "stupid" all the people with degrees. One Marine invited more militant anti-Iraq War posters than I was to meet him to get beaten up at the Chicago airport, where he could go via Space Available. Once the war turned sour and the proponents fell silent, the board predictably changed its policy and deleted political posts.

Are you insinuating that individuals that join the military do not have degrees, or are somehow not intelligent enough to obtain one?

As for you calling current service men and women stupid….it’s a damned same you didn’t meet that stupid marine to see what he had to say. He might have convinced you he wasn’t so dumb.

Read the box with my words above. If you had read it, you would know that I said that pro-war loudmouth posters (who were the ones starting the threads) called those of us against the Iraq war stupid, not vice versa. (They had dozens and we had dozens, but only about 2-3 of their side said they were active duty personnel, and they were more disciplined than the rest, with the exception of that one Marine wrestler who kept threatening everyone.) These civilian posters, misspelling and screaming at us in all capital letters, would call us "stupid" all the time because we didn't believe their tales that Iraq had WMDs, would develop nuclear weapons within 5 years, had terrorists marching in the US, etc. (Yes, there was a thread about a sighting of a military force of hundreds of turbaned terrorists marching in the U.S. midwest. I called the media report ludicrous, and one guy was very angry that I would doubt that we had been invaded.) Those against entering this disastrous war posted rationally and calmly, and most of us had college degrees. It was ironic that these morons kept calling us stupid when obviously they were the stupid ones, as their screaming writing in all caps belied. Most had never served, some said they were veterans, and a tiny number, like maybe 3, said they were active duty. The active duty ones were disciplined and could spell. The rest--about half were just violent idiots. A few on your side resorted to physical intimidation, as you just wished violence upon me now in your above quote, like a baby. It's violent threats like yours (which you put into the 3rd person projecting your violent fantasy onto someone else to take the blame for doing it) that silenced most Americans and got us into this endless torture war, which Bush called a 20-year war. Most Americans, according to all polls, opposed attacking Iraq outside of UN approval, which Bush didn't ask for because the world was against him. History quickly proved which side was right. Even most Republicans now regret starting the Iraqi war. Maybe you're the exception, still wanting to beat up anyone who was right. Instead of feeling outnumbered and threatening people, maybe you should just start your prison term now, if you want one so badly.

 

[jlprk]

More than 50% of us did not volunteer or get drafted

Your reply was to basically call the millions of us draft dodgers:

I'd add another big thanks to our service men and women for defending our freedoms, so some can get on their soapbox on Veterans day and sing the praises of draft dodgers.

In response, I informed you that even conservative students (such as my dorm roommate, who debated with me about the war) did what they could to avoid the draft (such as getting advised by a draft counselor). So you changed it to say that college students of the time didn't meet your definition of draft dodgers, unless they were in college to avoid the draft:

If you legitimately were going to school to get an education, regardless of lottery number, you were not dodging the draft either. Only if you failed to report if your number was called up.

The draft dodgers went to college with the intent of getting a deferment, if they were called up.

I'm glad you tried to refine your statement which called most college students of the time draft dodgers, but you still need to realize that a big motivation for all male students to fear dropping out even for 1 quarter was to avoid the draft. At some time during the 4 or more years of college, then as now, practically every male student was tempted to drop out for a quarter (to take a rest, make money, or maybe they got suspended for a low GPA). But most did not drop out, because of the draft threat, thus meeting your definition of a draft dodger (one who stayed in college to avoid a deferment). So even your refined definition labels most male students as draft dodgers. (Those who missed one lousy quarter were promptly ordered to an all-day draft exam with hundreds of other young men in their underwear in a big Federal building downtown. Bend over and get probed.) Your last sentence says that students got a deferment if called up while being a full-time student. No, they got the deferment for being a student, and weren't called up in the first place. Until they missed one quarter.

But they were in the VAST MINORITY. Far and away, most men that were called, reported for duty. To say that there were millions of draft dodgers is just making shit up.

True, almost all draftees reported. But few joined voluntarily. And more than half of that age group never served, because they were not drafted and did not volunteer. As for the millions of draft dodgers, I was using your initial definition of draft dodgers, when I said that most draft-age males did not serve, and you responded by saying I was on a soap box defending draft dodgers, thus calling the millions who did not serve draft dodgers. You later refined your definition, but it still includes most male students (those who ever had the motivation of not being drafted in their decision not take a certain quarter off).

 

[jlprk]

In the 60’s and early 70’s, if your draft lottery number was a high one, you were not at much risk of being drafted. The higher the number, the less risk. They never called up every draft number, to my recollection. If your friend had a very high number, there was no reason to dodge the draft, because he was not going to be drafted. To then set down an educational path to a civilian career was NOT dodging the draft.

You're right. When I said my pro-war dorm roommate got a high number, I meant he got a high probability of being drafted. I shouldn't have said a high number--it was a low number. I think his was like 12 and mine was like 57. Both meant you would definitely be drafted if you weren't a full-time college student, him faster than me. He simply stayed in college (and made appointments with the college-paid draft counselor on campus), avoiding the war till the draft basically ended in Dec. 1971. I eventually dropped out of college for a quarter, so I received a notice of a draft exam and reported, but wasn't drafted by the draft's end. Almost all draft-aged males decided to not join voluntarily, and the majority never served, even when you include draftees. I brought up my roommate as an example that almost all pro-war students (like Cheney and Rumsfeld) tried hard to stay out of the war. I knew plenty.

Oh well. Yada yada yada. I can't argue with you guys forever. Get in your kicks at me and I'll ignore it and let the argument die. No one's going to change here.

And now Maxiep has joined! Now I KNOW this thread will go on for days! I already spent 2-3 hours typing these last posts, and I'm not spending any more. Fire away at me. I'm going to spend my time reading basketball. I give this off-topic board about a minute a night.

 

[MrJayremmie]

THANK YOU (I know its a day late) for serving this country.

Thank you for protecting our freedoms. Thank you for risking your lives. I wish nothing but the best for all of you. You are real heros.

 

[oldguy]

Re-read Post #2. I didn't criticize even civilians pushing the war, much less active duty military. Instead, I praised the side who were against the Vietnam war, and who slowly became the majority. Today it's the vast majority, not a slight 51% one, and includes most who were in favor of the war at the time.



You know full well, but I'll remind you. You brought that up. I didn't say that.

I must be too thick to know wtf you're talking about. At the time, there was film of someone spitting on a returning vet. They were called baby killers and lots of other shit when they returned. To say there was only one instance of spitting....you'll have to prove it.

I didn't start this thread to debate the Vietnam or Iraq war. I started it to thank vets for their service. YOU decided to make it your soapbox for your agenda. And you did it in a way that is disrespectful to vets. If you wanted to thank the draft dodgers, you could have started your own thread.

 

[oldguy]

At the outset of the Iraqi War, there was much "debate" on the ESPN general board, complete with death threats against the majority to be silent. It was basically people who couldn't spell, calling "stupid" all the people with degrees. One Marine invited more militant anti-Iraq War posters than I was to meet him to get beaten up at the Chicago airport, where he could go via Space Available. Once the war turned sour and the proponents fell silent, the board predictably changed its policy and deleted political posts.

When I read this, it is so poorly written that I didn't understand what you were saying, at least based on what you say below. That being the case, my wish that you had attended a marine lesson on attitude adjustment was out of line, and I offer my apologies for that.

Read the box with my words above. If you had read it, you would know that I said that pro-war loudmouth posters (who were the ones starting the threads) called those of us against the Iraq war stupid, not vice versa.

That would be opposed to anti-war loudmouth posters? Heh, I wonder why that Marine wanted give someone a tuneup?

(They had dozens and we had dozens, but only about 2-3 of their side said they were active duty personnel, and they were more disciplined than the rest, with the exception of that one Marine wrestler who kept threatening everyone.) These civilian posters, misspelling and screaming at us in all capital letters, would call us "stupid" all the time because we didn't believe their tales that Iraq had WMDs, would develop nuclear weapons within 5 years, had terrorists marching in the US, etc. (Yes, there was a thread about a sighting of a military force of hundreds of turbaned terrorists marching in the U.S. midwest. I called the media report ludicrous, and one guy was very angry that I would doubt that we had been invaded.) Those against entering this disastrous war posted rationally and calmly, and most of us had college degrees. It was ironic that these morons kept calling us stupid when obviously they were the stupid ones, as their screaming writing in all caps belied. Most had never served, some said they were veterans, and a tiny number, like maybe 3, said they were active duty. The active duty ones were disciplined and could spell. The rest--about half were just violent idiots.

This thread isn't about your rants about the Iraq war.

A few on your side resorted to physical intimidation, as you just wished violence upon me now in your above quote, like a baby.

On MY side? How the fuck do you know where I stand on the various wars the US has been involved in? MY SIDE simply wanted to say thanks to the vets on veterans day.

It's violent threats like yours (which you put into the 3rd person projecting your violent fantasy onto someone else to take the blame for doing it) that silenced most Americans and got us into this endless torture war, which Bush called a 20-year war.

I didn't make any violent threats, but it's getting more and more tempting. If some hippy-type went up to one of Iran's Republican Guards and spit on him because they don't agree with their moron leader, you don't think they would kill them?

Most Americans, according to all polls, opposed attacking Iraq outside of UN approval, which Bush didn't ask for because the world was against him.

Bush tried to get the UN security council to support the invasion, but they did not. It was well known that France, Russia and China would veto any resolution to invade Iraq, so to continue down that path would have been futile. Bush DID get US Congressional approval, though, right?

History quickly proved which side was right. Even most Republicans now regret starting the Iraqi war. Maybe you're the exception, still wanting to beat up anyone who was right. Instead of feeling outnumbered and threatening people, maybe you should just start your prison term now, if you want one so badly.

LOL!! So, which side was right? Like I said before, I didn't start this thread to debate the merits of any of the wars our vets fought in. I started it to thank them for their service. You're the one that decided to jump on your soapbox and go off topic.