You be the GM: What moves would you make to save our season?

[CupWizier]

There are three problems with the "Clippers haul" narrative:

1) You'd have to assume that the Pacers would've wanted CJ (it's certainly possible, but not a 100% guarantee).

2) You'd have to assume that Paul George would've re-signed with the Blazers (certainly likely given that he stayed in OKC, but at the time it was a foregone conclusion he wanted to be in LA).

3) While the assets acquired for trading George were bountiful, you still would be trading your star player in the middle of Dame's prime for rebuilding type tools. Maybe he doesn't request a trade if he's on the Blazers and didn't have to play with Westbrook?

No facts to support it, but it seems like George signed with OKC but possibly had an agreement to trade him if he requested it as that deal between OKC and the Clippers happened way to quick and it didn't appear OKC was looking to deal with any other team.

 

[hoopsjock]

No facts to support it, but it seems like George signed with OKC but possibly had an agreement to trade him if he requested it as that deal between OKC and the Clippers happened way to quick and it didn't appear OKC was looking to deal with any other team.

Who knows, but that's certainly feasible. It could also have been OKC losing in the 1st round both years with George/Westbrook and quietly thinking what a rebuild would entail. Then when they got that offer from the Clippers they could frame it positively instead of "giving up."

 

[e_blazer]

No facts to support it, but it seems like George signed with OKC but possibly had an agreement to trade him if he requested it as that deal between OKC and the Clippers happened way to quick and it didn't appear OKC was looking to deal with any other team.

The basic problem with any of these Monday morning GM scenarios on message boards is that we have absolutely no idea what offers may have been in play and which ones may have been rejected out of hand. I don't know if KP had so much heartburn about the way he was dumped by the Blazers that there was no way that he was doing any deal with them or not. It certainly seemed that he was looking to move George somewhere other than the Rose City. The current narrative by some on this board that CJ has negative value is, IMO, laughable.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

The basic problem with any of these Monday morning GM scenarios on message boards is that we have absolutely no idea what offers may have been in play and which ones may have been rejected out of hand. I don't know if KP had so much heartburn about the way he was dumped by the Blazers that there was no way that he was doing any deal with them or not. It certainly seemed that he was looking to move George somewhere other than the Rose City. The current narrative by some on this board that CJ has negative value is, IMO, laughable.

The reason why we have no idea if acquiring PG was in play is because Neil refused to even entertain the idea of trading CJ... his close mindedness and ego may have a major negative impact on the teams future. CJ is not an untouchable player!!! He is an undersized, inconsistent high volume scorer that doesn’t play defense that will be 29 next season and he gave him an extension of over $30 mil per season a year before he had to.

 

[e_blazer]

The reason why we have no idea if acquiring PG was in play is because Neil refused to even entertain the idea of trading CJ... his close mindedness and ego may have a major negative impact on the teams future. CJ is not an untradeable player!!! He is an undersized, inconsistent high volume scorer that doesn’t play defense that will be 29 next season and he gave him an extension of over $30 mil per season a year before he had to.

The assumptions are truly amazing that you make in order to maintain your level of constant anger about Olshey. I believe that it's true that the offer for George was basically anything but Dame, CJ and Nurk. Those were the Blazers big 3 and they wanted to add George to the mix. Olshey wasn't willing to trade CJ for what could well have turned out to be a one year rental of George. I have never heard Olshey say since then that CJ, or anyone else for that matter, is off the table as far as trades go. Do you honestly believe that he wouldn't trade CJ if it would bring back Luka or Giannis? Yes, he offered CJ the extension a year earlier than necessary, but that ended up saving the Blazers money in the long run.

 

[Scalma]

The assumptions are truly amazing that you make in order to maintain your level of constant anger about Olshey. I believe that it's true that the offer for George was basically anything but Dame, CJ and Nurk. Those were the Blazers big 3 and they wanted to add George to the mix. Olshey wasn't willing to trade CJ for what could well have turned out to be a one year rental of George. I have never heard Olshey say since then that CJ, or anyone else for that matter, is off the table as far as trades go. Do you honestly believe that he wouldn't trade CJ if it would bring back Luka or Giannis? Yes, he offered CJ the extension a year earlier than necessary, but that ended up saving the Blazers money in the long run.

I’m not as anti Olshey, but not willing to sacrifice CJ for a better player, even a potential rental, is a flaw in strategy imo.

 

[hoopsjock]

I feel like everyone is forgetting that CJ had just finished a season in which his shooting splits were an insane 48/42/91, plus he passed more that season than the following two. His true shooting % that year was the same as Dame's too. Of course looking back he hasn't been as good since but in reality there was no way of knowing that season would be the outlier.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

1. I feel like everyone is forgetting that CJ had just finished a season in which his shooting splits were an insane 48/42/91, plus he passed more that season than the following two. His true shooting % that year was the same as Dame's too. Of course looking back he hasn't been as good since but in reality there was no way of knowing that season would be the outlier.

   It’s called buy low sell high... his shortcomings never changed... undersized, no defense, ISO ball

 

[illmatic99]

1. Extract some sort of value out of HW/Baze/secondary youngin/pick that won't completely cripple us long term. As in, get a definitive starter level tweener on contract for longer than a year. Think Covington/Porter/Hayward/Gordon/etc. Wouldn't be opposed to Harris/Wiggins as long as we wouldn't need to put Simons/Zach on the table.

2. Explore any options to get under the tax now, to get out of repeater for next season.

3. Put out a mandate to Terry start playing Dame/CJ no more than 30 mins. And put Nurk/Zach on a similar minute restriction.

4. Scout the hell out of this upcoming draft. Get a head start and deem whether we need to keep this lotto pick or move before the other teams.

5. Ant has to be on the no-trade list.

6. Put out the feelers for coaches. No point in firing Terry this season.

Essentially, gear up for next season and call this one a wash. Simons will have had a year under his belt and our contract situation will be a bit less bleak and allow for more flexibility NEXT year. And Zach/Nurk will be a season removed from rehab. Just come out strong in October 2020.

 

[illmatic99]

And how would you be feeling right now if the Blazers had traded CJ to the Pacers for George, and then a year later he took his game to the Clippers and the Blazers got zilch?

OKC extracted a ridiculous haul in that George trade. 4 first rounders and SGA and salary relief is not "zilch"

 

[illmatic99]

He's proven he can coach other types of systems.

Agreed with the rest of your post. But definitely not this point.

The only different system I've seen is throwing it to Aldridge on the left block. Everything else is the same, especially defensively, regardless of personnel.

 

[e_blazer]

OKC extracted a ridiculous haul in that George trade. 4 first rounders and SGA and salary relief is not "zilch"

We cannot assume that PG would have re-signed here as he did in OKC. For all Olshey knew, he could have walked as a free agent the next summer.

 

[hoopsjock]

1. 
   It’s called buy low sell high... his shortcomings never changed... undersized, no defense, ISO ball

Well, like I mentioned in my post that season (and the one prior) he actually did pass the ball more. Maybe the ISO ball has more to do with the offensive structure.

As for CJ's size, that hasn't been his problem on defense the last couple years. There's been very few games lately where CJ has gotten taken down to the block. The problem with CJ's defense is his positioning on the court and his tendency to drift or over help leaving too much distance to recover quick enough to close out on his man.

This is why I blame coaching. The lack of assists, reliance on ISO ball, poor defensive rotations, and lack of accountability for losing your man are all team wide issues. Of course CJ is one of the main culprits to this but in my opinion these are all correctable things.

 

[illmatic99]

We cannot assume that PG would have re-signed here as he did in OKC. For all Olshey knew, he could have walked as a free agent the next summer.

He signed in OKC after a first round loss to Utah. Why wouldn't he have signed in POR after our loss to NO? Hell, we might have even won some playoff games with him on our roster.

 

[wizenheimer]

2. Explore any options to get under the tax now, to get out of repeater for next season.

the CBA rule is a team pays repeater tax when they've been been a taxpayer in any 3 of the 4 previous seasons. This is Portland's 2nd straight season being a taxpayer (assuming they remain one this year and cutting 13M will be difficult). So, if they were over the tax line next season, they'd not be in the repeater tax...yet

the problem if they are a taxpayer next season is the following season. That would be the repeater tax season, and the combined salaries of Dame & CJ jump from 60M to 75M. It would be much better to not be a taxpayer next year, and the Blazers have a good shot at that as long as they don't trade either Whiteside of Bazemore for another big salary that has 2 or 3 years left (I'm looking at you Kevin Love)

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

Well, like I mentioned in my post that season (and the one prior) he actually did pass the ball more. Maybe the ISO ball has more to do with the offensive structure.

As for CJ's size, that hasn't been his problem on defense the last couple years. There's been very few games lately where CJ has gotten taken down to the block. The problem with CJ's defense is his positioning on the court and his tendency to drift or over help leaving too much distance to recover quick enough to close out on his man.

This is why I blame coaching. The lack of assists, reliance on ISO ball, poor defensive rotations, and lack of accountability for losing your man are all team wide issues. Of course CJ is one of the main culprits to this but in my opinion these are all correctable things.

You make valid points, but lack of size doesn’t help... and I don’t want to bet on CJ changing at this point in his career... would rather try a different running mate next to Dame... and time is running out if we want to try something different... Dame will be 30 next season.

 

[hoopsjock]

1. Extract some sort of value out of HW/Baze/secondary youngin/pick that won't completely cripple us long term. As in, get a definitive starter level tweener on contract for longer than a year. Think Covington/Porter/Hayward/Gordon/etc. Wouldn't be opposed to Harris/Wiggins as long as we wouldn't need to put Simons/Zach on the table.

2. Explore any options to get under the tax now, to get out of repeater for next season.

3. Put out a mandate to Terry start playing Dame/CJ no more than 30 mins. And put Nurk/Zach on a similar minute restriction.

4. Scout the hell out of this upcoming draft. Get a head start and deem whether we need to keep this lotto pick or move before the other teams.

5. Ant has to be on the no-trade list.

6. Put out the feelers for coaches. No point in firing Terry this season.

Essentially, gear up for next season and call this one a wash. Simons will have had a year under his belt and our contract situation will be a bit less bleak and allow for more flexibility NEXT year. And Zach/Nurk will a season removed from rehab. Just come out strong in October 2020.

1) Completely agree this needs to be the plan. I'd even include lesser players that have a year left like Snell and Dieng just to have more flexibility in trades this summer. If Baze and Whiteside are still on the team or they are traded for other expiring deals then this summer we basically have no way of making a big trade work unless it included CJ.

2) I'll have to look it up but I believe the repeater tax doesn't go into effect until you've been in the tax for 3 out of 4 seasons and I'm pretty sure last year was the 1st year they were in the tax so this wouldn't effect next year.

3) That sounds nice but I doubt Dame/CJ/Stotts go for that. I'd be surprised if Nurk and Zach weren't on a lower minute restriction though.

4) I'm pretty sure they'd do that no matter what. If not the whole scouting department should be fired.

5) Agreed on not trading Ant unless someone unexpected like a KAT level player becomes available.

6) Terry for sure won't get fired this season or this summer. It would be interesting to force him to replace all his assistants though. You see it in the NFL or college football where a coach is given more time but has to change his staff. I'm not saying this is necessarily the problem but it's probably the cheapest thing they could try.

 

[hoopsjock]

You make valid points, but lack of size doesn’t help... and I don’t want to bet on CJ changing at this point in his career... would rather try a different running mate next to Dame... and time is running out if we want to try something different... Dame will be 30 next season.

Who would you try and get since we can't change the past?

I've seen the CJ for Tobias Harris trade mentioned a lot. I see that as more of a lateral move that doesn't really raise the ceiling of the team much and doesn't allow for any better salary cap flexibility.

 

[e_blazer]

He signed in OKC after a first round loss to Utah. Why wouldn't he have signed in POR after our loss to NO? Hell, we might have even won some playoff games with him on our roster.

At the time of the trade to OKC, George was saying that the only place he would agree to a trade and sign an extension was one of the LA teams. It turned out that Presti was able to convince him to re-sign with OKC, but he took a chance on that. Olshey was willing to make a sweet offer to the Pacers, but not take the risk of dumping CJ for a one year rental that still wouldn’t have put the Blazers in a position of beating the Warriors that year. It’s easy to blast him in hindsight because things worked out pretty well for the Thunder, but there’s no guarantee it would have here.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

Who would you try and get since we can't change the past?

I've seen the CJ for Tobias Harris trade mentioned a lot. I see that as more of a lateral move that doesn't really raise the ceiling of the team much and doesn't allow for any better salary cap flexibility.

I’m so sick of the “lateral move” response to any CJ trade suggestion. It’s not just about individual talent, it’s about the sum of all parts. Completely disagree that any CJ trade is a lateral move... in fact it’s quite the opposite because I believe the teams style of play would change drastically.

 

[hoopsjock]

I’m so sick of the “lateral move” response to any CJ trade suggestion. It’s not about individual talent but more about the some of all parts. Completely disagree that any CJ trade is a lateral move... in fact it’s quite the opposite because I believe the teams style of play would change drastically.

But you're unwilling to name any realistic options other than saying "any" trade would be good?

Tobias Harris is a lateral move because he's not a great passer, is a bit of a SF/PF tweener and I think he's better at the PF but then you are a bit undersized there so it's just shifting the position you're undersized at. Plus he doesn't space the floor as well as CJ theoretically can.

C'mon, you're sick of hearing the "lateral move" excuse and I'm sick of people not coming up with anything other than trade CJ for something!

BTW, I'm the person who went through every team last year and proposed a CJ trade to each one until people started being rude about it.

 

[Scalma]

At the time of the trade to OKC, George was saying that the only place he would agree to a trade and sign an extension was one of the LA teams. It turned out that Presti was able to convince him to re-sign with OKC, but he took a chance on that. Olshey was willing to make a sweet offer to the Pacers, but not take the risk of dumping CJ for a one year rental that still wouldn’t have put the Blazers in a position of beating the Warriors that year. It’s easy to blast him in hindsight because things worked out pretty well for the Thunder, but there’s no guarantee it would have here.

Personally, if I spent years building up a “culture” that puts players first, etc, I wouldn’t hesitate to take a shot at sacrificing a good player for a great one, even a potential rental, because I’d trust the thing we built would do the selling when it came time. I mean, isn’t that the point?

 

[tester551]

At the time of the trade to OKC, George was saying that the only place he would agree to a trade and sign an extension was one of the LA teams. It turned out that Presti was able to convince him to re-sign with OKC, but he took a chance on that. Olshey was willing to make a sweet offer to the Pacers, but not take the risk of dumping CJ for a one year rental that still wouldn’t have put the Blazers in a position of beating the Warriors that year. It’s easy to blast him in hindsight because things worked out pretty well for the Thunder, but there’s no guarantee it would have here.

You're right on part of this.... there was no guarantee on anything. That's why it's called a 'calculated risk'

You are also very wrong about the hindsight.... most of us were bashing Olshey at the time for not putting CJ into the conversation. There's no hindsight needed for many of us.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

But you're unwilling to name any realistic options other than saying "any" trade would be good?

Tobias Harris is a lateral move because he's not a great passer, is a bit of a SF/PF tweener and I think he's better at the PF but then you are a bit undersized there so it's just shifting the position you're undersized at. Plus he doesn't space the floor as well as CJ theoretically can.

C'mon, you're sick of hearing the "lateral move" excuse and I'm sick of people not coming up with anything other than trade CJ for something!

BTW, I'm the person who went through every team last year and proposed a CJ trade to each one until people started being rude about it.

That’s fair... I will look at some realistic options when I have time.

 

[Blazers Roy]

I bet Kevin Pritchard was really begging on Olshey's doorstep as well.

I'm not biggest Neil fan, but we have no idea what was discussed or not. He is smart enough to go on with his plans quietly without tainting his team's culture.

 

[Scalma]

What’s funny is Pritchard and Olshey are actually good friends. Olshey has mentioned it before. And I doubt Pritchard holds a big enough vendetta against the blazers to the point where he would go out of his way to not do business with them. If he wanted CJ and Olshey was offering, there would have been a deal. Either he didn’t, or Neil didn’t offer. We’ll never really know.

 

[lamlor]

Lillard signed an extension.

He could demand a trade like the other big name players around the NBA was my point and I wouldn't blame him if things don't change.

 

[e_blazer]

You're right on part of this.... there was no guarantee on anything. That's why it's called a 'calculated risk'

You are also very wrong about the hindsight.... most of us were bashing Olshey at the time for not putting CJ into the conversation. There's no hindsight needed for many of us.

That's fair...as long as you're willing to accept that high risk, questionable payoff gambles sometimes go boom. And when they do, no fair using hindsight to blast the GM for taking the risk.

The Blazers have a pretty long history of not taking real risky roster moves. Can't think of the last one that they did where they moved a major piece in the hopes that a gamble would pay off. Anyone think of one?

 

[e_blazer]

Personally, if I spent years building up a “culture” that puts players first, etc, I wouldn’t hesitate to take a shot at sacrificing a good player for a great one, even a potential rental, because I’d trust the thing we built would do the selling when it came time. I mean, isn’t that the point?

I think the only point that matters is winning a title. Would the Blazers have been good enough that year to beat a healthy Warriors squad if they had swapped CJ for PG? Doubt it. Would the Blazers' culture have been enough to keep PG from going home to a warmer and potentially more lucrative Los Angeles team the next year? To me, that's a really questionable bet.

 

[Scalma]

I think the only point that matters is winning a title. Would the Blazers have been good enough that year to beat a healthy Warriors squad if they had swapped CJ for PG? Doubt it.

Would they have been a lot better? Yes.