You make the call.......

[Rick2583]

Outside of chemo agents, nothing is strictly medicinal. All drugs have some level of alternative use, that's the nature of only having 20,000 odd genes in the genome. This is where the waiver process is so important.

Vicodin, Oxycodone for pain. Muscle relaxer like Baclofin, or an anti-inflamatory like Naproxen. All Medicinal. Now I don't if these are considered PEDs but IF they are percribed by a doctor they should not be on the list as banned substances. JMO.

 

[Rick2583]

Tom I was hoping to see what your response to my above post would be, just curious.

 

[totus44]

Tom I was hoping to see what your response to my above post would be, just curious.

Hey Rick just saw this. Well those are also potential drugs of abuse. Oxycodone is banned. Vicodin is banned in NCAA and a few other places. Naproxen is OK at lower doses. Baclofen is OK too. There have been attempts to ban most of these as the can serve as recovery/masking/reversal agents for other banned substances. Those compounds all hit an array of targets without much specificity which is why they all have broad side effects can well.

The point of my comment previously is that it is likely that no one drug does just what its primary design intended. This is why is now takes up to $800M to launch a new FDA approved drug these days.

 

[Rick2583]

Hey Rick just saw this. Well those are also potential drugs of abuse. Oxycodone is banned. Vicodin is banned in NCAA and a few other places. Naproxen is OK at lower doses. Baclofen is OK too. There have been attempts to ban most of these as the can serve as recovery/masking/reversal agents for other banned substances. Those compounds all hit an array of targets without much specificity which is why they all have broad side effects can well.

The point of my comment previously is that it is likely that no one drug does just what its primary design intended. This is why is now takes up to $800M to launch a new FDA approved drug these days.

That's the part though Tom that I don't agree with, I tweak my back on Tuesday but I don't want to miss the big game on Wednesday so Tuesday night I take a Percocet (Oxycodone) for the pain. Not so I could hit better but because I need to feel better. How & why is this wrong?

 

[totus44]

That's the part though Tom that I don't agree with, I tweak my back on Tuesday but I don't want to miss the big game on Wednesday so Tuesday night I take a Percocet (Oxycodone) for the pain. Not so I could hit better but because I need to feel better. How & why is this wrong?

Its not wrong, its logical. Just like say you tear a bicep or a pec, etc. Why not allow steroids to speed the muscle growth. I get the emphasis of natural athletes for amateurs and the Olympics. Fine. But for pro sports....do what you want in the off season, follow these limited rules...clean unless injured, then only under medical care.

Never happen, likely goes in the opposite direction.

 

[Hammerojustice]

Vicodin, Oxycodone for pain. Muscle relaxer like Baclofin, or an anti-inflamatory like Naproxen. All Medicinal. Now I don't if these are considered PEDs but IF they are percribed by a doctor they should not be on the list as banned substances. JMO.

Tom I was hoping to see what your response to my above post would be, just curious.

Hey Rick just saw this. Well those are also potential drugs of abuse. Oxycodone is banned. Vicodin is banned in NCAA and a few other places. Naproxen is OK at lower doses. Baclofen is OK too. There have been attempts to ban most of these as the can serve as recovery/masking/reversal agents for other banned substances. Those compounds all hit an array of targets without much specificity which is why they all have broad side effects can well.

The point of my comment previously is that it is likely that no one drug does just what its primary design intended. This is why is now takes up to $800M to launch a new FDA approved drug these days.

That's the part though Tom that I don't agree with, I tweak my back on Tuesday but I don't want to miss the big game on Wednesday so Tuesday night I take a Percocet (Oxycodone) for the pain. Not so I could hit better but because I need to feel better. How & why is this wrong?

Its not wrong, its logical. Just like say you tear a bicep or a pec, etc. Why not allow steroids to speed the muscle growth. I get the emphasis of natural athletes for amateurs and the Olympics. Fine. But for pro sports....do what you want in the off season, follow these limited rules...clean unless injured, then only under medical care.

Never happen, likely goes in the opposite direction.

I know you were seeking Tom's input, but IMO, there should be timetables things could be taken.... i.e. a week or less for something acute.... Again though, this would be the players choice though... Not necessary...

Plus a test could indicate how much was in there system which could indicate when they last took & for how long depending on the pharmaceutical profile of each drug

 

[Rick2583]

I just can't see a guy getting banned for taking something for pain. I mean instead of getting commended for wanting to tough it out through the pain, he's now labeled a cheater. Not right IMO.

 

[yankeesince59]

I don't know of anyone being suspended or labeled a cheat for taking a Doctor prescribed painkiller.

 

[Rick2583]

I don't know of anyone being suspended or labeled a cheat for taking a Doctor prescribed painkiller.

Nor do I , I was just making a general statement that if a pain killer like Oxycodone or vicodin are banned one could get suspended if its found in your system.

 

[blgridesagain]

"broom Gilda, put a leech on his neck and the usual shot of Cortisone"!

 

[yankeesince59]

Nor do I , I was just making a general statement that if a pain killer like Oxycodone or vicodin are banned one could get suspended if its found in your system.

...oh yeah, I knew where you were coming from. I think it will take some time to streamline and simplify the program and they'll constantly be amending it as necessary.

 

[Hammerojustice]

Question I have though is how do you prove the Dr isn't just writing scripts when no need is evident...

 

[totus44]

Question I have though is how do you prove the Dr isn't just writing scripts when no need is evident...

There you go Hammer, and this is why the sports that fully adopt wada/usada programs have such draconian bans.

 

[totus44]

...oh yeah, I knew where you were coming from. I think it will take some time to streamline and simplify the program and they'll constantly be amending it as necessary.

Time to streamline? Not likely my friend. The minors are gonna get a full dose of the wada program.....pressure has been mounting. Sooner or later the pros are gonna get the guilt pressure from the nanny statists too. Baseball...all sports are gonna get fucked by warnings that never competed a day in their lives.

And they are using good fans and purists of the game as their unwitting accomplices. Their goals have nothing to do with the integrity of sport, its all control for the crowd that wants everyone to get a trophy.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I think I'll utterly bow and give out on this subject. Tho' often an outspoken Critic myself, the more I dig up on History, and Pro-Sports, I see alot of my own boyhood Heroe's come into question. I wish I'd of saved/bookmarked, and posted the article I read a week or so ago. The article mentioned Aaron himself stating to a reporter he had taken an amphetamine once, "but didn't like what it did to him, so he never took another".....

Many other greats were called into question.....over the last 50-60 years.

I've also admitted, its high time to begin to allow many of banned substances, for Post Op, or PT events, even used for alternative therapies. With a Conservative and rationale approach, without having the system getting tighter to choking out reason. Which is where it sounds like your saying MLB is going? Is that correct Tom?

In tune with the times, without over utilization or UN-authorized, yet new by-laws for loosening up the noose, in lieu of tightening it up...!

Let that be Selig's Legacy.....!

Beware of taking a Tylenol, sounds like it...?

 

[yankeesince59]

Time to streamline? Not likely my friend. The minors are gonna get a full dose of the wada program.....pressure has been mounting. Sooner or later the pros are gonna get the guilt pressure from the nanny statists too. Baseball...all sports are gonna get fucked by warnings that never competed a day in their lives.

And they are using good fans and purists of the game as their unwitting accomplices. Their goals have nothing to do with the integrity of sport, its all control for the crowd that wants everyone to get a trophy.

...hmmm... OK...how about FULLY "streamline"...better?

...and sorry, but the scenarios you referenced will take "time" to fully implement.

...again, the point I was making is that it will take some time to get the wrinkles out.

 

[yankeesince59]

..and I'll say it one more time;

"I don't know of anyone being suspended or labeled a cheat for taking a Doctor prescribed painkiller."

...instead of suggesting conspiracy theories, can anyone actually point to a name ?

 

[Mattingly23NY]

..and I'll say it one more time;

"I don't know of anyone being suspended or labeled a cheat for taking a Doctor prescribed painkiller."

...instead of suggesting conspiracy theories, can anyone actually point to a name ?

I can't, well maybe, Tyrone Shoelaces......!

 

[totus44]

...hmmm... OK...how about FULLY "streamline"...better?

...and sorry, but the scenarios you referenced will take "time" to fully implement.

...again, the point I was making is that it will take some time to get the wrinkles out.

Oh I know...I just have absolutely no faith that this system actually doing the right thing.

 

[yankeesince59]

Oh I know...I just have absolutely no faith that this system actually doing the right thing.

...gotcha.

 

[Rick2583]

..and I'll say it one more time;

"I don't know of anyone being suspended or labeled a cheat for taking a Doctor prescribed painkiller."

...instead of suggesting conspiracy theories, can anyone actually point to a name ?

Case in point, I don't remember the substance that Pettitte said he used to heal from (I think) a knee injury (and I believe him) but he's now been tagged with the label of a cheat.

 

[yankeesince59]

Case in point, I don't remember the substance that Pettitte said he used to heal from (I think) a knee injury (and I believe him) but he's now been tagged with the label of a cheat.

...Pettitte used HGH on 2 separate occasions...and neither was "Doctor prescribed".

...Clemens told Andy about HGH and Andy then sought out and consulted McNamee.

 

[Rick2583]

...Pettitte used HGH on 2 separate occasions...and neither was "Doctor prescribed".

...Clemens told Andy about HGH and Andy then sought out and consulted McNamee.

But my point Ron is that IMO whether he got it from a doctor or from a friend of a friend his purpose was only to help with an injury & not to enhance his game in any way, and that's what I feel needs to be addressed before we start labeling players. Again, JMO.

 

[totus44]

I think I can bridge both ends of this conversation. Andy's intent was to heal/extend his career, not too have an unfair advantage over other players on the playing field. How he went about getting hGH was absolutely wrong. If he cheated, he cheated the Yanks and Astros out of money, competing free agents out of a roster spot, medical professionals out of fees. But did he earn stats unfairly...I don't think so.

Its all splitting hairs at this point....I do see both sides. Bottom line, if we know that there are substances that do help players get back on the field, team doctors need to be prescribing these and request waivers with mlb under the existing rules.

 

[yankeesince59]

...rick, it has been addressed...there's a "list" of what is allowed, period. And Andy went the short route on his own and I'm sorry, but there IS a difference between going through a DOCTOR and going through a "friend of a friend"...I doubt a Doctor, especially a team Doctor is going to prescribe HGH.
...as tote alluded to, there is an already established requirement that mandates that the players get clearance FIRST before using certain compounds/medicines, etc.


...Andy was a nice guy, but let's face it, if he weren't a Yankee, would you still defend him?...I doubt it...I wouldn't either.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I think I can bridge both ends of this conversation. Andy's intent was to heal/extend his career, not too have an unfair advantage over other players on the playing field. How he went about getting hGH was absolutely wrong. If he cheated, he cheated the Yanks and Astros out of money, competing free agents out of a roster spot, medical professionals out of fees. But did he earn stats unfairly...I don't think so.

Its all splitting hairs at this point....I do see both sides. Bottom line, if we know that there are substances that do help players get back on the field, team doctors need to be prescribing these and request waivers with mlb under the existing rules.

ah split ends, the one thing women hate most....!

 

[Rick2583]

...rick, it has been addressed...there's a "list" of what is allowed, period. And Andy went the short route on his own and I'm sorry, but there IS a difference between going through a DOCTOR and going through a "friend of a friend"...I doubt a Doctor, especially a team Doctor is going to prescribe HGH.
...as tote alluded to, there is an already established requirement that mandates that the players get clearance FIRST before using certain compounds/medicines, etc.


...Andy was a nice guy, but let's face it, if he weren't a Yankee, would you still defend him?...I doubt it...I wouldn't either.

I hear what you're saying Ron & I follow your logic but, although this may not be a fair analogy because we are not athletes governed by rules haven't you even tweaked your knee or pulled a muscle & a family member or a close friend gave you something for the pain? That's all I'm saying.

Also I just don't think we can or should compare the following...........................

Bonds, A-Rod, Sosa, McGwire etc, getting shots in the ass to build muscle mass to, John Smith or Joe Blow popping a Vicodin to ease some pain. And yes I know there's rules but I'm hoping & wishing that somewhere down the road the (MLB) can differentiate between the two scenario's & judge each one accordingly. For instance..........

EXAMPLE 1 = 50 game suspension

EXAMPLE 2 = 5-10 game suspension for taking a pain medication without a doctors perscription.

 

[yankeesince59]

...I understand your meaning rick...but, I don't think there should be much of a "grey area" concerning the program. As the saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

The rules have been laid out and unfortunately there will likely be some collateral damage...I guess that's the price you pay.




...Chris Davis, for example didn't follow the rules and he was suspend last for using the exact same medication that he is OKed to use this year.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

...I understand your meaning rick...but, I don't think there should be much of a "grey area" concerning the program. As the saying goes, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse".

The rules have been laid out and unfortunately there will likely be some collateral damage...I guess that's the price you pay.




...Chris Davis, for example didn't follow the rules and he was suspend last for using the exact same medication that he is OKed to use this year.

NTM- He missed an ALCS, and there is no making up for that loss. No amount of money can replace that awkward suspension of Davis.

BTW-Rick Taking a Script WITHOUT a Dr's Prescription is a Felony, for Class 1 Pain Killers, which Vicodin is in that family....just saying....