Your ideal draft day?

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Mediocre Man said:
Probably because GS, OKC, Toronto and Cle all have high draft picks leading the way, or players acquired with high draft picks leading them to the finals?

Even Portland, when we were great drafted Walton, Lucas, Drexler, Porter, Kersey, Uncle Cliffy. Even guys like Duckworth and Buck (Sam Bowie former 2nd overall and a draft pick) were acquired using former draft picks like

People bring up the teams with Sheed and little Damon as a counter to this argument, but t was a different league back then, and frankly a different Paul Allen.

Show me a championship team, or someone who is consistently vying for one, and I will show you a high draft pick most likely leading them. Exceptions to the rule? You bet. But in the end, they are exceptions. Players drafted by or traded for on draft day as part of the draft like Pippen or Roy are all over great teams. If you want to be a nice team that competes for the playoffs each year, but doesn't really have the horses to be taken seriously, then do what Portland has done.

Does it work all the time? Obviously not. the Sixers are garbage and the Clips back in the day were too. But they didn't need to be

Let's say the Sixers drafted Steven Adams instead of MCW from Syracuse, Of course, in 2013. in 2014 they draft Smart instead of Embid and in 2015 they take Porzingas or Winslow. Then people start saying, wow, what a great plan. They were shitty because of bad scouting, not a bad plan

So, IMO, that's why people are so fixated on it. It's where the stars of the league come from. Our two best players, and our worst, ironically enough, were all lottery picks
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Another thing you're forgetting:

While it is true championship teams are mostly led by high draft picks. The caveat is that these high draft picks are usually winning championships on a different team than the one who drafted them.
 
I'm failing to see the appeal of GPII. I like him don't get me wrong, but does he bring more to the table than say Pat?
 
dviss1 said:
Another thing you're forgetting:

While it is true championship teams are mostly led by high draft picks. The caveat is that these high draft picks are usually winning championships on a different team than the one who drafted them.
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The additional caveat is that they have a supporting cast made up of players from all over. In my mind, it doesn't matter where the player comes from. Just get the best players you can.

I would like to add 2 picks this summer (thinking the Clev pick + cash for a late first + mid second). If you draft right, these rookie contracts are increadable bargains in building your team.
 
Schilly said:
I'm failing to see the appeal of GPII. I like him don't get me wrong, but does he bring more to the table than say Pat?
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He can steal, block, pass, shoot in the mid range, dunk, and provide that defense needed to stop curry. pat can't do any of that
 
dviss1 said:
Another thing you're forgetting:

While it is true championship teams are mostly led by high draft picks. The caveat is that these high draft picks are usually winning championships on a different team than the one who drafted them.
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Are they?
 
My ideal draft day? Unless we're drafting someone for another team as part of a prearranged trade, I don't want a pick in this draft. Instead, I want Neil to work his usual something-for-nothing magic to acquire future draft picks. It may take multiple deals involving multiple teams with POR playing a facilitator role, but this is what Neil excels at.

Why? I don't want to add more unproven youth to our roster. I want Neil to leverage those future assets into one, or more, proven mid-career players that can provide immediate help in next year's playoffs. A rim protecting big man and reliable 3rd scorer, for starters, a lock down perimeter defender and a back-up stretch 4 would also be nice. Ideally, a great 2-way player that meets multiple needs - like Paul Millsap.

Teams that are blowing it up, overvalue future picks. They trade away proven players to clear cap space and want young payers on cheap contracts and future draft picks in return. There will be such players available this summer and at the trade deadline next February as some teams abandon playoffs hopes and start seriously tanking and looking to the future. If we have future draft picks, we can take advantage of their misery and get the proven NBA talent we need to help us win now, not more projects that may, or may not, pan out.

Specifics? Who knows? It really depends on who decides to blow it up and when they decide to do it, but there will be proven players available that can provide immediate help. I'll let Neil and company figure out the specifics, but I'd rather acquire proven NBA talent than another 20-year old project.

BNM
 
dviss1 said:
Yes. The research has been done before I an older thread. I'm too busy/lazy to look it up.
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Me too. I know Lebron, Bosh, Shaq but who else? Duncan, Dirk, KD, Westbrook, Wade, Lebron, Steph, Klay, Pierce, Kobe even. All led their teams to title games. We have Dame, we need 1 more star, better than CJ.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Me too. I know Lebron, Bosh, Shaq but who else? Duncan, Dirk, KD, Westbrook, Wade, Lebron, Steph, Klay, Pierce, Kobe even. All led their teams to title games. We have Dame, we need 1 more star, better than CJ.
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Bolded ones were not drafted by the teams they went to the finals with.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Are they?
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Yes, they are. How many top 5 picks in the last 20 years have won NBA championships in the with the team that drafted them? Hint, not very many. Tim Duncan is the rare exception and he was drafted 19 years ago. LeBron, the biggest draft day prize since Duncan still hasn't won a title for the team that drafted him and he was drafted 13 years ago. Anthony Davis was supposed to be the next great superstar and he can't even get his team into the playoffs, let alone win a title.

dviss1 said:
Another thing you're forgetting:

While it is true championship teams are mostly led by high draft picks. The caveat is that these high draft picks are usually winning championships on a different team than the one who drafted them.
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Shaq won 0 titles in ORL, but won 3 in LA and 1 in MIA. LeBron has won 0 titles in CLE, but two in MIA. Dirk won 0 titles in MIL, but 1 in DAL. Kobe won 0 titles in CHA, but 5 in LA. Garnett won 0 titles in MIN, but 1 in BOS. Bosh won 0 titles in TOR, but 2 in MIA. Aldridge won 0 titles in POR and 0 in SAS, etc.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Yes, they are. How many top 5 picks in the last 20 years have won NBA championships in the with the team that drafted them? Hint, not very many. Tim Duncan is the rare exception and he was drafted 19 years ago. LeBron, the biggest draft day prize since Duncan still hasn't won a title for the team that drafted him and he was drafted 13 years ago. Anthony Davis was supposed to be the next great superstar and he can't even get his team into the playoffs, let alone win a title.



Shaq won 0 titles in ORL, but won 3 in LA and 1 in MIA. LeBron has won 0 titles in CLE, but two in MIA. Dirk won 0 titles in MIL, but 1 in DAL. Kobe won 0 titles in CHA, but 5 in LA. Garnett won 0 titles in MIN, but 1 in BOS. Bosh won 0 titles in TOR, but 2 in MIA. Aldridge won 0 titles in POR and 0 in SAS, etc.

BNM
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Very Nice.

Hence, getting a draft pick for us this year would be the wrong direction.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Me too. I know Lebron, Bosh, Shaq but who else? Duncan, Dirk, KD, Westbrook, Wade, Lebron, Steph, Klay, Pierce, Kobe even. All led their teams to title games. We have Dame, we need 1 more star, better than CJ.
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I know PER is a stupid stat sometimes, but it's a decent shorthand for what I'm about to say...

In 2015, we had Dame at 22 PER, CJ at 18 PER, Plums at 17 PER, which is good (not Finals good but makes-the-playoffs good). But, we had Harkless at 13 PER, and Aminu at 13 PER. Not good, but luckily Ed Davis was an 18 PER off the bench; not often you get one of those. We need two players at 20+ PER (Drexler/Porter were both above 20 in the 1990-1992 era), and also no more than one starter below 16 PER (Duck was a 13 PER).

I think we still have the benefit of expecting year over year growth from CJ and Harkless. If you can get CJ from an 18 to a 20 PER next year, and Harkless from a 13 to a 15 PER next year, that's as good as any clever trade or FA signing for those positions (Hark is so young, you can hope that 2018 Harkless grows more too). If you can lure a PF/C here that can give us 18-20 PER as well, we'll be in great shape. Move Plums or Aminu to the bench for a stronger bench mob, or trade them for guys who are okay with playing off the bench.
 
Interesting thought on PER, @BlazerCaravan .

GSW: Curry (32), Klay (19), Draymond (19) and then 4 other guys above league average of 15. Jesus.
OKC: KD (28), Russ (28), Kanter (24), rest are around average or worse.
CLE: Lebron (28), Kyrie (20), Love (19), rest are average or worse.
SAS: Kawhi (26), Aldridge (22), Manu (18), West (18), Tim (17), TP (16)

We are definitely lacking a high usage 3rd guy.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Dirk was a draft day trade. Lebron took the Cavs to the finals. Kobe was also a draft day trade. Dirk and Kobe have never worn a jersey other than the LA or Dallas.
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Yeah that says way more about how poorly managed Orlando and Cleveland were, and bad teams in general are more likely to fuck up their good draft picks because often the reason they're bad is bad management. San Antonio tanking for Duncan was brilliant because it wasn't a stupid management move like Philly.
 
yuyuza1 said:
Interesting thought on PER, @BlazerCaravan .

GSW: Curry (32), Klay (19), Draymond (19) and then 4 other guys above league average of 15. Jesus.
OKC: KD (28), Russ (28), Kanter (24), rest are around average or worse.
CLE: Lebron (28), Kyrie (20), Love (19), rest are average or worse.
SAS: Kawhi (26), Aldridge (22), Manu (18), West (18), Tim (17), TP (16)

We are definitely lacking a high usage 3rd guy.
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Yeah, a medium-to-high usage third option that's also 17-19 PER in efficiency. Man, if we had Kanter... we'd be playing SAS right now (imho).
 
Boob-No-More said:
Yes, they are. How many top 5 picks in the last 20 years have won NBA championships in the with the team that drafted them? Hint, not very many. Tim Duncan is the rare exception and he was drafted 19 years ago. LeBron, the biggest draft day prize since Duncan still hasn't won a title for the team that drafted him and he was drafted 13 years ago. Anthony Davis was supposed to be the next great superstar and he can't even get his team into the playoffs, let alone win a title.



Shaq won 0 titles in ORL, but won 3 in LA and 1 in MIA. LeBron has won 0 titles in CLE, but two in MIA. Dirk won 0 titles in MIL, but 1 in DAL. Kobe won 0 titles in CHA, but 5 in LA. Garnett won 0 titles in MIN, but 1 in BOS. Bosh won 0 titles in TOR, but 2 in MIA. Aldridge won 0 titles in POR and 0 in SAS, etc.

BNM
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Is it fair to expand this to top 10? Or would that just skew the argument?

Several have taken their teams to the finals. Wade has won 2 as well who was a top 5 pick
 
BlazerCaravan said:
Yeah, a medium-to-high usage third option that's also 17-19 PER in efficiency. Man, if we had Kanter... we'd be playing SAS right now (imho).
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Man, I wonder if TOR would be willing to part ways with Valanciunas. That guy is screaming for a bigger role.
 
yuyuza1 said:
Man, I wonder if TOR would be willing to part ways with Valanciunas. That guy is screaming for a bigger role.
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Prying good players from deep playoff teams is hard because those teams generally aren't run by idiots.
 
BlazerCaravan said:
Yeah that says way more about how poorly managed Orlando and Cleveland were, and bad teams in general are more likely to fuck up their good draft picks because often the reason they're bad is bad management. San Antonio tanking for Duncan was brilliant because it wasn't a stupid management move like Philly.
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Ya, tanking for the purpose of tanking is garbage, but rebuilding the right way....and obviously, like SA and Houston with the twin towers, you have to get lucky

You obviously have to make good draft picks. GS has done great, but if a team in front of them, oh I don't know....Minnesota, for example takes Curry instead of Rubio and Flynn, then GS more than likely doesn't have a title. If anyone takes Lillard before we did, we probably suck right now. There has to be luck involved, but sometimes teams have to create their own luck
 
Mediocre Man said:
Is it fair to expand this to top 10? Or would that just skew the argument?

Several have taken their teams to the finals. Wade has won 2 as well who was a top 5 pick
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Wade is the other one, but he needed Shaq and LeBron to win it all.

If you expand it to top 10, you'll find more, but you'll also find a LOT more total busts (not that there is any shortage of them in the top 5 - Darko, Oden, Olowokandi, Kwame, etc.). The total number of players that have won titles for the teams that drafted them will go up, but so will the total number of players that were absolutely wasted draft picks.

And, that's kind of my point, the draft is a total crap shoot. Even if you get lucky and end up with the 1st pick when a once a generation player is supposedly available, it doesn't guarantee a championship. As mentioned, LeBron is the biggest draft prize post Tim Duncan and that was 13 years ago and he still has't won a title in CLE - a team that had three other No. 1 overall picks and a total of 5 top 4 picks in the 4 years he was off winning titles elsewhere. Think about that. CLE has LeBron, the best player of his generation, and has had five other top 4 draft picks in the last 5 years, and they still haven't won a championship.

Of course, we lucked into the No. 1 pick in the "Oden Draft" and we all know how that worked out.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Wade is the other one, but he needed Shaq and LeBron to win it all.

If you expand it to top 10, you'll find more, but you'll also find a LOT more total busts (not that there is any shortage of them in the top 5 - Darko, Oden, Olowokandi, Kwame, etc.). The total number of players that have won titles for the teams that drafted them will go up, but so will the total number of players that were absolutely wasted draft picks.

And, that's kind of my point, the draft is a total crap shoot. Even if you get lucky and end up with the 1st pick when a once a generation player is supposedly available, it doesn't guarantee a championship. As mentioned, LeBron is the biggest draft prize post Tim Duncan and that was 13 years ago and he still has't won a title in CLE - a team that had three other No. 1 overall picks and a total of 5 top 4 picks in the 4 years he was off winning titles elsewhere. Think about that. CLE has LeBron, the best player of his generation, and has had five other top 4 draft picks in the last 5 years, and they still haven't won a championship.

Of course, we lucked into the No. 1 pick in the "Oden Draft" and we all know how that worked out.

BNM
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It is a crap shoot. I guess I've always been a believer in havign a better chance to get it right the higher you are in the draft. We could've selected Durant, but teams 3-13 could not have

We could have selected Drummond instead of the injured guy had we had a higher pick.
 
Mediocre Man said:
It is a crap shoot. I guess I've always been a believer in havign a better chance to get it right the higher you are in the draft. We could've selected Durant, but teams 3-13 could not have

We could have selected Drummond instead of the injured guy had we had a higher pick.
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We did have a higher pick. We used it on Damian Lillard. No regrets there.

The problem is, those higher picks come at a cost, and sometimes they aren't available at ANY price. No way in hell was CLE trading the No. 1 pick in 2003. We got REALLY lucky convincing NJN to give us the pick that turned out to be Damian Lillard. Everyone thought Drummond would go higher and was surprised he fell to 9th (at the time, many thought we were crazy for taking Lillard over Drummond at 6th). Sure, we could have had him instead of Meyers (or with Meyers), but it would have cost us Dame.

In most cases, all a really high draft pick means is you really suck and will probably continue to suck for a while until you finally luck out and get a player that you can build around. (PHI, MIN, SAC, the pre-Olshey LACs, etc.).

BNM
 
Mediocre Man said:
It is a crap shoot. I guess I've always been a believer in havign a better chance to get it right the higher you are in the draft. We could've selected Durant, but teams 3-13 could not have

We could have selected Drummond instead of the injured guy had we had a higher pick.
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But missing even MORE free throws would have drove people nuts... so many variables, and hopefully his defense and other tangibles produce less points for them and more points for us... but god damn would we miss a lot more free throws... It's hard to say.

I just hate missing free throws. But yeah, other than that, Drummond would be nice.
 
Boob-No-More said:
We did have a higher pick. We used it on Damian Lillard. No regrets there.

The problem is, those higher picks come at a cost, and sometimes they aren't available at ANY price. No way in hell was CLE trading the No. 1 pick in 2003. We got REALLY lucky convincing NJN to give us the pick that turned out to be Damian Lillard. Everyone thought Drummond would go higher and was surprised he fell to 9th (at the time, many thought we were crazy for taking Lillard over Drummond at 6th). Sure, we could have had him instead of Meyers (or with Meyers), but it would have cost us Dame.

In most cases, all a really high draft pick means is you really suck and will probably continue to suck for a while until you finally luck out and get a player that you can build around. (PHI, MIN, SAC, the pre-Olshey LACs, etc.).

BNM
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Conversely it's also the easiest way to stop sucking. HOU, SA, GS, POR

Had we finished worse it would not have cost us Dame. Dame was from NJ.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Conversely it's also the easiest way to stop sucking. HOU, SA, GS, POR

Had we finished worse it would not have cost us Dame. Dame was from NJ.
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I'm confused by the bolded. Can you elaborate?
 
Strenuus said:
I'm confused by the bolded. Can you elaborate?
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My original comment was drafting higher means you have the opportunity to land better players. I brought up not being able to draft Drummond someone Portland reportedly really wanted, and having to settle for the injured guy as an example. Boob said had we drafted Drummond we wouldn't have got Dame, which is correct. Just not what I was saying. Had we had a higher pick that year we could have had dame and Drummond. Then again we could have had Dame and Soup Juggler, so you know. It's not an exact science
 
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