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Denny Crane said:
DOMA passed congress with a ton of Democratic votes, and was signed by Bill Clinton.
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The Democratic party isn't very left-leaning, which I've noted many times.

A long way to go to prove your "trend" theory.

Unfortunately.
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A long way to go, but not to illustrate the trend. The trend has been for more and more individual rights, insofar as they aren't infringing on other people's personal autonomy. This can be seen as a progressive chain from the end of slavery, through legal interracial marriage, civil rights for racial minorities, women's rights. The trend is pretty clear, IMO. How long it will take for gay rights to become an obvious, assumed part of American society I don't know, but I think it's fairly clear that it will happen.

Massachusetts and now Connecticut allow gay marriage (rather than civil unions). Both sides of the fight in California pretty much agree that once gay marriage has had a chance to happen for a few years, it will be gain public support permanently. So now it's just a matter of time for it to win on the ballot, with sentiment fairly close to evenly divided. I think that once it passes in California, and California proves that legalizing gay marriage doesn't create any negative repurcussions, it will open the way for it to be legalized in other left-leaning states like New York, Oregon, etc. Once it's been adopted by a number of states, including big ones like California and New York, it will gradually spread across the nation. Slowly, but inevitably.

It may or may not unfold exactly like that, but I think the trend, even regarding merely gay rights, is clear. Americans are much more tolerant of gay marriage today then they were 100 years ago. They'll continue to become more tolerant as older generations fade away and are replaced by younger generations.
 
Xericx said:
Would you say animals having sex with different species is "natural"? According to your theory, if I can find a video of a dog having sex with a cat, then it would be "natural", right?
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How would you define "natural" then? The naive among us assumed that "natural" meant "occurring in nature". That doesn't mean moral (or immoral) but I can't see how it couldn't mean natural.
 
Minstrel said:
I think that's an excellent point. There's definitely an ethical dilemma to slaughtering animals when we don't need to for survival--essentially for "entertainment" (good taste).

Clearly, animal rights fall well down the ladder of most people's (including mine) ethical priorities compared to rights for humans. But I could certainly envision society moving away from killing animals for food in the future. I don't know that that will happen, but it might.
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If we want to be able to feed well all of the population on this planet and do so with the least amount of soil, water, landscape, and forest damage, and with the least impact towards global warming, and with the least impact on sensitive ecosystems - we should move as quickly as possible towards reducing consumption of animal products - particularly livestock.
 
Masbee said:
If we want to be able to feed well all of the population on this planet and do so with the least amount of soil, water, landscape, and forest damage, and with the least impact towards global warming, and with the least impact on sensitive ecosystems - we should move as quickly as possible towards reducing consumption of animal products - particularly livestock.
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Yes, I've read that. A pound of vegetables takes far less land and resources to produce than a pound of beef, pork or chicken.
 
Xericx said:
Would you say animals having sex with different species is "natural"? According to your theory, if I can find a video of a dog having sex with a cat, then it would be "natural", right?
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Well for one, cats and dogs are different species. A man and a man are not different species. Secondly, there are actually animals that have been created when animals procreated outside of their "type". (See Ligers and mules).

So....there goes that argument.
 
julius said:
Well for one, cats and dogs are different species. A man and a man are not different species. Secondly, there are actually animals that have been created when animals procreated outside of their "type". (See Ligers and mules).

So....there goes that argument.
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It doesn't matter if they're different species. You said if it happens in nature, then its natural. So, according to your previous logic, mating of different species is natural if it occurs anywhere in nature.

So I don't know where "that argument has gone", according to your previous logic, it is valid so it looks like you need to revise your initial justifications.
 
Xericx said:
It doesn't matter if they're different species. You said if it happens in nature, then its natural. So, according to your previous logic, mating of different species is natural if it occurs anywhere in nature.
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I didn't mention anything about mating of "different species".

So I don't know where "that argument has gone", according to your previous logic, it is valid so it looks like you need to revise your initial justifications.
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You really aren't getting it, are you? I said it (homosexuality) occurs in nature. So you said that "if I video tape a cat and a dog having relations, it must be natural too".

But that is not the same as homosexuality.
 
julius said:
I didn't mention anything about mating of "different species".



You really aren't getting it, are you? I said it (homosexuality) occurs in nature. So you said that "if I video tape a cat and a dog having relations, it must be natural too".

But that is not the same as homosexuality.
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Sure it is. If it happens in nature or if an animal's natural instinct is to have sex with another species, according to your logic, it is natural. You can't be selective when you make broad statements like "if it happens in nature, its natural".

[video=youtube;xNIC-jZVmwg]

they're both male too!

If you want to use the whole "nature" argument, there are a lot of anomalies in nature...why don't you try again. Nature is crazy. You say that homosexuality is natural because it occurs in nature, then refuse to acknowledge other behaviors that occur in nature as being natural, yet would fit the same system of logic.

I'm not comparing the two, just not a fan of people using bad logic in arguments.
 
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Xericx said:
Sure it is. If it happens in nature or if an animal's natural instinct is to have sex with another species, according to your logic, it is natural. You can't be selective when you make broad statements like "if it happens in nature, its natural".



they're both male too!

If you want to use the whole "nature" argument, there are a lot of anomalies in nature...why don't you try again. Nature is crazy. You say that homosexuality is natural because it occurs in nature, then refuse to acknowledge other behaviors that occur in nature as being natural, yet would fit the same system of logic.
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I didn't refuse it. I haven't refused that strange things happen in nature.

But I'm not sure what cats and dogs have to do with what is being discussed. It's not a proof of anything.
I'm not comparing the two, just not a fan of people using bad logic in arguments.
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That's ironic coming from you.
 
lol...BenDavis got banned...that is pretty tough to do here....and coming from me that means something :devilwink:
 
BenDavis is a moron.

Also, I think lesbians should only get married if they are hot.*

*Disclaimer: I mean this as a joke and I have nothing against gays, males or females. So please, lets not get homo up in here. No pun intended.
 
julius said:
I didn't refuse it. I haven't refused that strange things happen in nature.

But I'm not sure what cats and dogs have to do with what is being discussed. It's not a proof of anything.


That's ironic coming from you.
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I never said it was proof of anything. The fact is you made the blanket statement that if something occurs in nature, it therefore is "natural". So anything that ever occurs in nature, is natural. If an adult animal has sex with a child animal, its natural. If a mother animal canabalizes their children in nature, it is natural. So for you to just use the argument that since homosexuality occurs in nature, it is natural, is a weak and broad argument that lacks any sort of impact for anything in this discussion.

I'm just pointing it out. Nothing more.
 
Xericx said:
I never said it was proof of anything. The fact is you made the blanket statement that if something occurs in nature, it therefore is "natural". So anything that ever occurs in nature, is natural. If an adult animal has sex with a child animal, its natural. If a mother animal canabalizes their children in nature, it is natural. So for you to just use the argument that since homosexuality occurs in nature, it is natural, is a weak and broad argument that lacks any sort of impact for anything in this discussion.

I'm just pointing it out. Nothing more.
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you are aware that I was responding the comment that it's not "natural", when in fact it occurs in nature. So bringing up cats and dogs or the other stuff you brought up does not make the point you think it does.
 
Xericx said:
Sure it does.
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Not really. Something that occurs in nature is, by definition, natural. It does not mean that humans do it.

But the comment was that homosexuality does not occur in nature, so therefore it is not "natural". But it does occur in nature. Bringing up your points has no bearing on my comment, nor does it take away from what I said.

So, no it doesn't. You just thought you made a good call, or pointed out some kind of paradox. That's straight from the Kirk Cameron school of "see? This here banana proves there's a God" arguing.
 
Minstrel said:
The trend has been for more and more individual rights, insofar as they aren't infringing on other people's personal autonomy. This can be seen as a progressive chain from the end of slavery, through legal interracial marriage, civil rights for racial minorities, women's rights. The trend is pretty clear, IMO. How long it will take for gay rights to become an obvious, assumed part of American society I don't know, but I think it's fairly clear that it will happen.
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The trend has NOT been for more and more individual rights.

It has been for more and more rights, for certain previously oppressed GROUPS, insofar as they aren't infringing on other people's personal autonomy. That's good.

But in the bigger picture I'd say individual rights in America have waned, not waxed, in the last 3-4 decades.

Just a few examples that come to mind:

1. For the average previously un-oppressed Caucasian American Citizen, there has been a severe diminishing of indidual rights. They are each, as individuals, denied a level playing field in receiving scholarships, grants, jobs, careers...due to Affirmative Action and it's devastating domino effect throughout society. I could rant all day about Government-sanctioned Racism and it's role in the belittlement of the Civil Rights Movement, but I'll move on. :devilwink:

2. For any person who hasn't already established themselves in their final career, they are now required to piss in a bottle (Waive their 5th Amendment Rights) to even be considered for a job at the 7-11, never mind a real career.

3. We all are required to submit to a wide variety of personal intrusions including background checks, medical records checks, and a "waiting" period...to simply exercise our 2nd Amendment rights. Our right to freedom of travel (another 5th Amendment Right) is rapidly being assailed under similar restrictions. :bicycle::smiley-whip:

4. We are now charged a fee simply to walk on OUR Public lands.

5. Our phones are tapped, our emails spied on, our library and medical records scanned for "unpatriotic activities" and "deviancy"...:tsktsk:

6. There are entire cities where a person can no longer smoke, regardless of a lack of proximity to other people.


Strangely, I cannot think of a single Freedom or Right that has been newly granted to me since I was born.

Only ones I've had taken from me, (on paper at least).
 
julius said:
Not really. Something that occurs in nature is, by definition, natural. It does not mean that humans do it.

But the comment was that homosexuality does not occur in nature, so therefore it is not "natural". But it does occur in nature. Bringing up your points has no bearing on my comment, nor does it take away from what I said.

So, no it doesn't. You just thought you made a good call, or pointed out some kind of paradox. That's straight from the Kirk Cameron school of "see? This here banana proves there's a God" arguing.
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ok.
 
MARIS61 said:
The trend has NOT been for more and more individual rights.

It has been for more and more rights, for certain previously oppressed GROUPS, insofar as they aren't infringing on other people's personal autonomy. That's good.

But in the bigger picture I'd say individual rights in America have waned, not waxed, in the last 3-4 decades.

Just a few examples that come to mind:

1. For the average previously un-oppressed Caucasian American Citizen, there has been a severe diminishing of indidual rights. They are each, as individuals, denied a level playing field in receiving scholarships, grants, jobs, careers...due to Affirmative Action and it's devastating domino effect throughout society. I could rant all day about Government-sanctioned Racism and it's role in the belittlement of the Civil Rights Movement, but I'll move on. :devilwink:

2. For any person who hasn't already established themselves in their final career, they are now required to piss in a bottle (Waive their 5th Amendment Rights) to even be considered for a job at the 7-11, never mind a real career.

3. We all are required to submit to a wide variety of personal intrusions including background checks, medical records checks, and a "waiting" period...to simply exercise our 2nd Amendment rights. Our right to freedom of travel (another 5th Amendment Right) is rapidly being assailed under similar restrictions. :bicycle::smiley-whip:

4. We are now charged a fee simply to walk on OUR Public lands.

5. Our phones are tapped, our emails spied on, our library and medical records scanned for "unpatriotic activities" and "deviancy"...:tsktsk:

6. There are entire cities where a person can no longer smoke, regardless of a lack of proximity to other people.


Strangely, I cannot think of a single Freedom or Right that has been newly granted to me since I was born.

Only ones I've had taken from me, (on paper at least).
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hear hear!

America = it knows what's best for ya?
 
The OP:
crandc said:
Remember him?

Article

Sorry, Zack. Can anyone fix?
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MOST TANGENT THREAD OF THE YEAR AWARD
trophy-1.jpg


:devilwink::cheers:
 
Oh no. This is just the beginning. The award can wait. Come on guys/girls go on...go on..
 
MARIS61 said:
The trend has NOT been for more and more individual rights.

It has been for more and more rights, for certain previously oppressed GROUPS, insofar as they aren't infringing on other people's personal autonomy. That's good.

But in the bigger picture I'd say individual rights in America have waned, not waxed, in the last 3-4 decades.

Just a few examples that come to mind:

1. For the average previously un-oppressed Caucasian American Citizen, there has been a severe diminishing of indidual rights. They are each, as individuals, denied a level playing field in receiving scholarships, grants, jobs, careers...due to Affirmative Action and it's devastating domino effect throughout society. I could rant all day about Government-sanctioned Racism and it's role in the belittlement of the Civil Rights Movement, but I'll move on. :devilwink:

2. For any person who hasn't already established themselves in their final career, they are now required to piss in a bottle (Waive their 5th Amendment Rights) to even be considered for a job at the 7-11, never mind a real career.

3. We all are required to submit to a wide variety of personal intrusions including background checks, medical records checks, and a "waiting" period...to simply exercise our 2nd Amendment rights. Our right to freedom of travel (another 5th Amendment Right) is rapidly being assailed under similar restrictions. :bicycle::smiley-whip:

4. We are now charged a fee simply to walk on OUR Public lands.

5. Our phones are tapped, our emails spied on, our library and medical records scanned for "unpatriotic activities" and "deviancy"...:tsktsk:

6. There are entire cities where a person can no longer smoke, regardless of a lack of proximity to other people.


Strangely, I cannot think of a single Freedom or Right that has been newly granted to me since I was born.

Only ones I've had taken from me, (on paper at least).
Click to expand...

:smiley-klap2:
 
please dont...just because we accept it here doesnt mean it NEEDS to be here

Now if its offensive to some but you like it for what it is then go for it!
 
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