Zack Addy!

[number 10]

I'd be interested in knowing what vegetable milk, cheese and eggs come from?

I'm faily certain they come from animals (meat).

Otherwise, people like myself who eat meat (along with their vegetables) every day, would be called vegetarians.

Some people call themselves vegetarians, but they are liars if they eat dairy, or fish, or fowl...

Technically they are lying if they eat fruit or nuts.

They should just not label themselves and save the embarrassment.

you're delusional if you don't see the difference between sucking a cow's teat and killing it to eat its flesh. If you wanted to make the argument based on what happens to an animal after its milk/egg producing years are finished then I could see your point, but until then...

 

[Miksaid]

I'd be interested in knowing what vegetable milk, cheese and eggs come from?

I'm faily certain they come from animals (meat).

Otherwise, people like myself who eat meat (along with their vegetables) every day, would be called vegetarians.

Some people call themselves vegetarians, but they are liars if they eat dairy, or fish, or fowl...

Technically they are lying if they eat fruit or nuts.

They should just not label themselves and save the embarrassment.

Yes, you're right. They come from animals (meat). However, most vegetarians eat dairy, and many still eat eggs. This is where the vegetarian variants come into play (lacto, ovo, lacto-ovo). Vegans, on the other hand, are those people who practice a diet of not eating ANYTHING derived from animals (including egg and dairy). There is a difference.

Vegan =/= vegetarian

 

[THE HCP]

Yo HCP...gotta question for ya...

What's your ? Faker Fan?

 

[MARIS61]

You are both ignoring my extremely obvious and accurate point that they may call themselves vegetarians, but it's a complete misuse of the word.

No more accurate than me calling myself a wheelbarrow.

Vegetarian implies they only eat vegetables. Not meat, not dairy, not fruit, not nuts, not grains...

They are simply people who exclude meat, or some meat products, from their diet.

The fancifully innaccurate tag "vegetarian" only illustrates the lack of conscious thought which has preceded their decision.

And it's not founded in a nutritionally educated sense, as dairy products are far less healthy for you than meat is.

And eggs are chicken embryos, and therefore, meat.

 

[DaRizzle]

Vegetarian implies they only eat vegetables.

But the ACTUAL definition says otherwise...am I missing something here?

Vegetarian—There are several categories of vegetarians, all of whom avoid meat and/or animal products. The vegan or total vegetarian diet includes only foods from plants: fruits, vegetables, legumes (dried beans and peas), grains, seeds, and nuts. The lactovegetarian diet includes plant foods plus cheese and other dairy products. The ovo-lactovegetarian (or lacto-ovovege-tarian) diet also includes eggs. Semi-vegetarians do not eat red meat but include chicken and fish with plant foods, dairy products, and eggs.

LINK

 

[THE HCP]

Fuck all you guys, I'm going to go get a chicken embryo quesadilla! And wash it down with a baby cow fetus milkshake!

 

[barfo]

Better to get nutrition from the source.

A horse is the source, of course, of course,
and nothing tastes better than horse, of course

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

But the ACTUAL definition says otherwise...am I missing something here?



LINK

I'm not arguing that they refer to themselves as vegetarians.

I'm saying it's drastically inaccurate and it makes them seem foolish and slow thinkers to me.

And I'm pretty sure that nuts, berries, grains and fruits aren't happy about failing to even get mentioned!

 

[bintim]

I talk to Vegans and they are from Venus! What does this have to do with basketball?

 

[boatsandstars]

Eric, nice videos on YouTube, btw.

 

[tlongII]

Vegatarian or Vegan doesn't matter. Minstrel got pwned!

 

[crandc]

This thread resembles a bady made chef's salad. A little of everything thrown together badly.

My little bit of everything thoughts:

Thought #1: It is not that rare for a female animal, especially one who has just birthed/hatched her own offspring, to nurture an infant of another species. But as a biologist I am not aware of any animals who have cross-species sex on their own initiative. The crosses of closely related species like horse/donkey, horse/zebra, lion/tiger are initiated by humans. A domestic cat may allow a domestic dog in the same household to hump him/her, but they do not have actual intercourse, and the lives of companion animals in human homes are hardly a state of nature. OTOH, homosexual, bisexual and transgender individuals exist in varying percentages in every known animal species, including our closest primate relatives, and exist in every known human society. And yes, if something exists in nature it is natural, by definition.

Thought #2: There is no biological reason why humans and chimps could not mate and produce viable, although probably infertile offspring. But as my college genetics professor memorably said, humans and chimps don't turn each other on.

Thought #3: Every indication of the physical, emotional and social well being of children has shown that children raised by same sex couples do as well as those raised by comparable (same economic, educational, etc. level) opposite sex couples. There are some differences. Children raised by same sex couples are less likely to embrace rigid sex roles, having grown up seeing their dads mop floors or their moms change the oil. They are, not surprisingly, less likely to be homophobic. And while they are no more likely to be gay than children of opposite sex couples, those who are gay are more comfortable with their sexual orientation. If you think homophobia and rigid sex roles are good, then that is bad news. If you think acceptance and dividing tasks by talent rather than gender are good, then that is good news.

Thought #4: Most gays were raised by straights. Ellen DeGeneris pointed out she had straight parents, straight aunts and uncles, straight friends, straight teachers, straight classmates, watched straights on TV, and is gay.

Thought #5: Saying vegetables are more or less nutritious than meat is meaningless since vegetables vary so much. But the Anglo-American diet based on meat as the centerpiece 3 meals a day every day is not healthy for people or the environment. The advice in Omnivore's Dilemma is sound. Eat what you like, eat a variety, mostly plants, in moderation.

Thought #6: Moderation goes out the window on Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, my guests are dropping like flies; 3 previously committed guests have said they can't come after all and I don't know if there will be enough people to eat the food. If the Blazers were in town next week instead of this week I'd invite Mike & Mike.

Cashews, homemade salsa and chips, vegetable skewers

Salad of winter greens with apples, dried cherries and baked goat cheese

Herb brined turkey, sage and thyme dressing, pan gravy

Roasted herbed potatoes, candied sweet potato casserole, sauteed green beans with pecans and orange essence, orange cranberry sauce, skillet conbread

Apple cranberrry pie with homemade vanilla ice cream, sugar and spice pumpkin pie with brandied whipped cream

Wine and sparkling cider

Alka-seltzer

 

[Denny Crane]

A vegetarian who eats dairy is like a Blazers Fan who roots for the Lakers. He's NOT a vegetarian.

A recent study I read in yesterdays paper of vitamins A and E, funded by vitamin companies, showed supplements are poorly absorbed by the body to the point of being practically useless. It also showed A and E supplements were not helpful in preventing cancers.

Manufactured foods such as soy protein are also poorly absorbed and carry other health risks.

Better to get nutrition from the source.

All this is true. Though you do get _some_ benefit from vitamin and mineral supplements, just not as much or the same as from food.

The appeal of a vegetarian diet is the lack of cholesterol (which is only made by animals), the high nutritional content of vegetables (and the body's ability to absorb it properly), the lower calorie content, the fiber content, and I suppose that veggies don't have a face.

The negatives to a vegetarian diet are the difficulty in ingesting enough protein, and that meat is a good source of minerals like iron.

One one hand, meat contains a lot of the same things our bodies contain since we're meat, too. On the other, it seems odd to drink cow milk that is meant for cow offspring.

Overdoing it with meat (Atkins diet) or vegetables sure seems like a bad idea to me. Some combination of a moderate amount of meat with a good helping of veggies seems right. At least the USDA thinks so.

 

[blue32]

Wow this thread has turned into a big cluster fuck...
Kinda funny!

 

[tlongII]

The argument that the "american" 3 meals a day including meat diet is bad for the environment is patently UNTRUE! The environmental problems are caused by over-population.

 

[crandc]

The argument that the "american" 3 meals a day including meat diet is bad for the environment is patently UNTRUE! The environmental problems are caused by over-population.

The two are not mutually exclusive. A small population of meat eaters is sustainable. 8 billion is not.

 

[DaRizzle]

I'm not arguing that they refer to themselves as vegetarians.

So you are just trying to argue for the literal meaning when you break down the word...not the ACTUAL definition?

 

[Sedatedfork]

DaRizz -- is that the shirt tha Xericx sent you? Where can I get mine?

 

[DaRizzle]

DaRizz -- is that the shirt tha Xericx sent you? Where can I get mine?

lol...i wish

 

[Minstrel]

Vegatarian or Vegan doesn't matter. Minstrel got pwned!

If by "pwned," you mean "shown to be correct," yes I was.

The negatives to a vegetarian diet are the difficulty in ingesting enough protein, and that meat is a good source of minerals like iron.

Protein isn't a problem for vegetarians. You can get protein from a lot of sources: nuts, various dairy, soy and grains like wheat and rice. Iron is present in green leafy vegetables, lentils, various beans, various grains and other sources.

It's not that hard to design a perfectly healthy vegetarian diet. But, like a low-fat or low-calorie diet, it's hard for many people to actually eat since our tastes have evolved to desire high fat and high calorie foods (meat being rather central) due to the survival importance of calories and fat back when it was difficult for humans to get either.

 

[ant]

Thought #1: It is not that rare for a female animal, especially one who has just birthed/hatched her own offspring, to nurture an infant of another species. But as a biologist I am not aware of any animals who have cross-species sex on their own initiative. The crosses of closely related species like horse/donkey, horse/zebra, lion/tiger are initiated by humans. A domestic cat may allow a domestic dog in the same household to hump him/her, but they do not have actual intercourse, and the lives of companion animals in human homes are hardly a state of nature. OTOH, homosexual, bisexual and transgender individuals exist in varying percentages in every known animal species, including our closest primate relatives, and exist in every known human society. And yes, if something exists in nature it is natural, by definition.

Can't let this one pass without butting in. There are many many examples of natural hybridizations. Birds do it. Many bees do it. Harvester ants do it. Red-tailed and blue monkey do it. Lots of fish do it. Lizards do it. Mice do it. There are several examples from every group in the animal kingdom.

 

[THE HCP]

This thread resembles a bady made chef's salad. A little of everything thrown together badly.

My little bit of everything thoughts:

Thought #1: It is not that rare for a female animal, especially one who has just birthed/hatched her own offspring, to nurture an infant of another species. But as a biologist I am not aware of any animals who have cross-species sex on their own initiative. The crosses of closely related species like horse/donkey, horse/zebra, lion/tiger are initiated by humans. A domestic cat may allow a domestic dog in the same household to hump him/her, but they do not have actual intercourse, and the lives of companion animals in human homes are hardly a state of nature. OTOH, homosexual, bisexual and transgender individuals exist in varying percentages in every known animal species, including our closest primate relatives, and exist in every known human society. And yes, if something exists in nature it is natural, by definition.

Thought #2: There is no biological reason why humans and chimps could not mate and produce viable, although probably infertile offspring. But as my college genetics professor memorably said, humans and chimps don't turn each other on.

Thought #3: Every indication of the physical, emotional and social well being of children has shown that children raised by same sex couples do as well as those raised by comparable (same economic, educational, etc. level) opposite sex couples. There are some differences. Children raised by same sex couples are less likely to embrace rigid sex roles, having grown up seeing their dads mop floors or their moms change the oil. They are, not surprisingly, less likely to be homophobic. And while they are no more likely to be gay than children of opposite sex couples, those who are gay are more comfortable with their sexual orientation. If you think homophobia and rigid sex roles are good, then that is bad news. If you think acceptance and dividing tasks by talent rather than gender are good, then that is good news.

Thought #4: Most gays were raised by straights. Ellen DeGeneris pointed out she had straight parents, straight aunts and uncles, straight friends, straight teachers, straight classmates, watched straights on TV, and is gay.

Thought #5: Saying vegetables are more or less nutritious than meat is meaningless since vegetables vary so much. But the Anglo-American diet based on meat as the centerpiece 3 meals a day every day is not healthy for people or the environment. The advice in Omnivore's Dilemma is sound. Eat what you like, eat a variety, mostly plants, in moderation.

Thought #6: Moderation goes out the window on Thanksgiving. Unfortunately, my guests are dropping like flies; 3 previously committed guests have said they can't come after all and I don't know if there will be enough people to eat the food. If the Blazers were in town next week instead of this week I'd invite Mike & Mike.

Cashews, homemade salsa and chips, vegetable skewers

Salad of winter greens with apples, dried cherries and baked goat cheese

Herb brined turkey, sage and thyme dressing, pan gravy

Roasted herbed potatoes, candied sweet potato casserole, sauteed green beans with pecans and orange essence, orange cranberry sauce, skillet conbread

Apple cranberrry pie with homemade vanilla ice cream, sugar and spice pumpkin pie with brandied whipped cream

Wine and sparkling cider

Alka-seltzer

On thought #2, I would hook up with a HOT monkey in a heartbeat! I wonder what a half monkey 1/4 Mexican baby would look like?

 

[tlongII]

On thought #2, I would hook up with a HOT monkey in a heartbeat! I wonder what a half monkey 1/4 Mexican baby would look like?

I think you should ask DaRizzle to post a picture of himself.

 

[tlongII]

If by "pwned," you mean "shown to be correct," yes I was.

Uh, no that's not exactly what I meant.

This is only true in societies like ours that have historically eaten meat, so have not developed a proper vegetarian cuisine. Cultures like India have a long tradition of vegetarian cuisine and have developed a diet that is perfectly balanced and healthy without meat.

When you go vegetarian in a society where "vegetarian" means salad, salad and more salad, then yes, it's unhealthy. If one develops a proper diet (which would include nuts and grains), one can be vegetarian and entirely healthy.

I am not vegetarian, and am not arguing for or against anyone becoming vegetarian. But I've definitely read that vegetarianism in cultures that have a tradition of it is as healthy as a diet including meat (and more healthy than a diet including lots of meat).

Not according to a quick search of Nutritional experts:

Roughly half of the population in India (your example) is dangerously aenemic, due to lack of meat and dairy products in their diet.

Basically you argued that India was an example of a "healthy" vegetarian culture which obviously isn't true. That's what I call serious pwnage!

 

[Minstrel]

Basically you argued that India was an example of a "healthy" vegetarian culture which obviously isn't true. That's what I call serious pwnage!

Actually, it was true. MARIS changed the debate to veganism, which is not what I was talking about.

 

[tlongII]

Actually, it was true. MARIS changed the debate to veganism, which is not what I was talking about.

Sorry, but citing a country with half of it's population classified as "dangerously anemic" as being a "healthy" example doesn't work for me.

 

[Minstrel]

Sorry, but citing a country with half of it's population classified as "dangerously anemic" as being a "healthy" example doesn't work for me.

The vegetarian cuisine in India is healthy and balanced. The people who choose to stick to a vegan diet (which is a huge number, for religious reasons) aren't taking advantage of that balanced diet, because they are cutting out a large part of it.

So, that 50% number isn't terribly relevant. Those who choose to be vegetarian, not vegan, in India can eat a balanced diet with no effort. They don't need to go to special stores or search for dietary supplements or special recipes. All the restaurants and standard recipes of the cuisine allow for eating a varied menu without eating meat.

 

[tlongII]

The vegetarian cuisine in India is healthy and balanced. The people who choose to stick to a vegan diet (which is a huge number, for religious reasons) aren't taking advantage of that balanced diet, because they are cutting out a large part of it.

So, that 50% number isn't terribly relevant. Those who choose to be vegetarian, not vegan, in India can eat a balanced diet with no effort. They don't need to go to special stores or search for dietary supplements or special recipes. All the restaurants and standard recipes of the cuisine allow for eating a varied menu without eating meat.

You're inferring that the Indian culture has a healthy diet when that clearly isn't true. Maybe you should have said "sub-culture" or something like that. You've been pwned and you just have to own up to it.

 

[Minstrel]

You're inferring that the Indian culture has a healthy diet when that clearly isn't true.

I wasn't saying anything about the "average" Indian diet, or whatever you mean by "the Indian culture" having a healthy diet. I said that various societies, like India, have developed perfectly balanced and healthy vegetarian diets. Vegetarians in such societies can eat as healthily as people who eat healthy omniverous diets in the US.

That was the totality of my claim, and it's entirely true. People who choose not to eat a vegetarian diet (omnivores, vegans) are obviously not included in that. I was responding to the claim that vegetarian diets are intrinsically less healthy because they can't be balanced. That's untrue.

I wasn't claiming that India is a more physically healthy society than the US, or that the average diet in India is more healthy than the average diet in the US.

 

[ant]

Most strict vegans experience loss of memory, confusion, loss of muscle mass, osteoporosis, kidney and liver problems...from deficiencies, and from unhealthy processed meat and dairy substitutes such as soy protein, margarine...and they tend to become obese and diabetic as they rely heavily on carbohydrates to curb the hunger pangs from not eating meat.!

Not vegans who eat a balanced diet. Protein is protein is protein. It's incredibly easy to have a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet if you educate yourself about food and what our bodies actually need.

Wasn't Carl Lewis a vegan back in his Olympic days?