18.9ppg 6.7rpg

[bigbailes]

You'd gladly trade Bayless before anybody. Lets be real here. That isn't saying much.

no, i still think our best nucleus at the guard spot going forward is roy, rudy and bayless. i just don't understand the love that he gets from some of you when he hasn't shown an ability to do much more than bury his head and drive to the basket. that's great and all but teams have figured it out. at this point he is looking more and more like a volume shooter, he needs to find a j or he won't be in our long term plans.

 

[julius]

trade rudy, Marty has made him utterly and completely expendable

by that impeccable logic, he's also made Travis utterly and completely expendable, along with Jerryd too.

 

[BlazerBeliever]

It's amazing to see how quick fans jump on and off a players bandwagon.

I have made it pretty clear I am being patient with Martell. I have never been a fan of him. I have said if he plays this way the rest of the season I would jump on his bandwagon.

 

[jlprk]

When Outlaw came into the league, he was expected to be a rebounder because of his leaping ability. After a couple of years, he moved outside, developed his scoring, and established himself as a guy who would last in the NBA.

When Webster started, he was expected to be a top shooter. But he couldn't dribble, missed them all, had no strength, etc. Similar to Outlaw. The reason Webster is beginning to find his place in the league is that he has reversed his priorities. Instead of trying to be a shooter, his main efforts are defense and rebounding. Maybe he'll be another Bruce Bowen.

The parallel I'm drawing is--For both players, it took a few years to reverse course. Until then, they were waiver material.

As for Webster vs. Batum, that's another matter. Batum is more cagey and strategic, instead of a helter-skelter energy player like Webster. He's also taller. I'll go with Batum.

 

[MrJayremmie]

no, i still think our best nucleus at the guard spot going forward is roy, rudy and bayless. i just don't understand the love that he gets from some of you when he hasn't shown an ability to do much more than bury his head and drive to the basket. that's great and all but teams have figured it out. at this point he is looking more and more like a volume shooter, he needs to find a j or he won't be in our long term plans.

Really? I think he has shown flashes that he can be a good defender and a good playmaker for himself and others, on top of being able to score and get to the line at will. At 21 years old, i'd say he is on a good path considering his improvement from year 1 to 2.

Saying he isn't in our long term plans, as things currently stand I believe is silly. If we get a decently young PG though, then I can see that changing. But as of right now, with Blake maybe not coming back next year and Miller having only 2 years on his contract (and being old), I think he is in our plans.

 

[Boob-No-More]

When Outlaw came into the league, he was expected to be a rebounder because of his leaping ability. After a couple of years, he moved outside, developed his scoring, and established himself as a guy who would last in the NBA.

When Webster started, he was expected to be a top shooter. But he couldn't dribble, missed them all, had no strength, etc. Similar to Outlaw. The reason Webster is beginning to find his place in the league is that he has reversed his priorities. Instead of trying to be a shooter, his main efforts are defense and rebounding. Maybe he'll be another Bruce Bowen.

The parallel I'm drawing is--For both players, it took a few years to reverse course. Until then, they were waiver material.

Thanks to a few rare success stories (KG, Kobe, Lebron) the expectations for kids coming straight from high school to the NBA are unrealistically high. Martell just turned 23 a month ago. In the olden days, he'd be a fifth year college senor right now (after red shirting last season with the foot injury).

It just takes these young guys a few years to reach their potential - many never do. I'm glad to see Martell's improvement. He has become a valuable contributor to this team. He'll never be better than Chris Paul or Deron Williams. That's not his fault. I just want him to be the best Martell Webster he can possibly be. He seems to be headed in the right direction.

BNM

 

[Shooter]

It seems like he's really getting past his confidence issues, but I'm not 100% sold yet. If he can keep this up for another month or so, I will be a believer.

Ditto. I'm thrilled that Webster is finally coming around, but I'm holding my breath, too. He's been so erratic his entire career that this latest run of good games seems like a fluke. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[STOMP]

As for Webster vs. Batum, that's another matter. Batum is more cagey and strategic, instead of a helter-skelter energy player like Webster. He's also taller. I'll go with Batum.

Nic is at most 1/2" taller then Martell and has about the same length. Essentially they are the same size.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2008-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Official-Measurements,-plus-2007-Analysis/

STOMP

 

[Further]

Nic is at most 1/2" taller then Martell and has about the same length. Essentially they are the same size.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2008-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Official-Measurements,-plus-2007-Analysis/

STOMP

They both have good size for a sf. I don't think those measurements are completely correct. I have been to enough games, seeing them side by side to know that Batum is at least an inch taller then webs. Also, according to draftexpress, batum has a 1 inch greater wingspan. Those small differences however do give Batum a slight edge in length. However, Martell has a very strong body, which Batum does not. But most important, both of them are very athletic, and that gives them a good chance to become good players.

Martell is also a smart man. This does not necessarily translate to high bball IQ, but over time I imagine that he will use his mind to help him instead of hurt him like it has in the past. I like the mention of Bowen above, because I think that Martell is the type of player that can use his intellect to learn all the little tricks to become a great defender. This does not mean that Batum is not intelligent, I really could not say one way or another, but it does appear that he has a higher natural bball IQ.

They are very different players who both young with a ton of potential. I do believe that Batum has a higher ceiling, but at the moment, I think Martell has overtaken what Batum had done in his rookie year. However, it did take Webs a long time to get to where he is now.

 

[Bob Dobalina]

13.1ppg 4.6rpg. $9,000,000 this season. Turkoglu. :-D

 

[Further]

13.1ppg 4.6rpg. $9,000,000 this season. Turkoglu. :-D

Thank you for that post.

 

[STOMP]

They both have good size for a sf. I don't think those measurements are completely correct. I have been to enough games, seeing them side by side to know that Batum is at least an inch taller then webs. Also, according to draftexpress, batum has a 1 inch greater wingspan. Those small differences however do give Batum a slight edge in length.

Nic's wingspan numbers are +1.75" actually, but Martell has a 1.25" advantage in the standing reach. Blunders in measurement taking & transposition happen but are rare, so is growing after the age of 18.

my point was that both are about the same size. They are. I'd consider them about average sized for a starting NBA SF.

However, Martell has a very strong body, which Batum does not. But most important, both of them are very athletic, and that gives them a good chance to become good players.

Martell is older which just naturally adds strength to any player. Batum's weaker body rebounded and defended at a higher level last year then Martell ever had. This year MW has put up nearly identical per minute rebounding stats to rookie Batum and I'd still give Nic the edge on D

They are very different players who both young with a ton of potential. I do believe that Batum has a higher ceiling, but at the moment, I think Martell has overtaken what Batum had done in his rookie year. However, it did take Webs a long time to get to where he is now.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=1&p1=webstma02&y1=2010&p2=batumni01&y2=2009

If I had to guess which of the two would turn out better I'd go with the one who at 19 equalled or surpassed everything the other did up to age 23 until two weeks ago... his rookie season stats still are superior to 09/10 MW's in more ways then not even with the hot two weeks. Of course as Blazer fans we want both to do well so here's to hoping they make strong arguments for themselves in the future.

STOMP

 

[Boob-No-More]

If I had to guess which of the two would turn out better I'd go with the one who at 19 equalled or surpassed everything the other did up to age 23 until two weeks ago... his rookie season stats still are superior to 09/10 MW's in more ways then not even with the hot two weeks. Of course as Blazer fans we want both to do well so here's to hoping they make strong arguments for themselves in the future.

I agree with most of what you wrote. However, you are exaggerating their age difference by a year. The both have early December birthdays. Nic was only 19 for the first month of his rookie year. Just like Martell was 22 for the first month of this season.

So, yes, Nick put up similar numbers at 19/20 to what Martell was putting up at 22/23 (until very recently). Every player develops at a different rate. Martell is looking like a "late" bloomer. A big part of that is mental (confidence) in Martell's case, but he had a bigger leap than Nic. Martell went straight from high school to the NBA. Nic had played professionally in Europe before coming to the NBA. So, he had experience playing against older players. Martell didn't.

BNM

 

[Further]

If I had to guess which of the two would turn out better I'd go with the one who at 19 equalled or surpassed everything the other did up to age 23 until two weeks ago... his rookie season stats still are superior to 09/10 MW's in more ways then not even with the hot two weeks. Of course as Blazer fans we want both to do well so here's to hoping they make strong arguments for themselves in the future.

STOMP

I was not arguing otherwise. I too think that Batum will end up the better player. But, at this very point in time, I think that Webster is edging him out. If Webster continues to play his current 2010 clip, when Batum returns he will not be as good as Webs. If Webs regresses, which has happened before, then perhaps they would be more on par or Batum may even be better.

This is a good thing that Webster is currently better. Batum was excellent for a rookie and a huge surprise last year, but he was still the weak link in our starting offense. Martell (of old) on the other hand, had he been healthy, would have been a weak link on the defensive end. But now Webs has been improving on both offense and defense. Now, I think Martell, as long as he continues at 2010 clip, will perform admirably as a starter while Batum backs him up and continues to improve until one day he is able to overtake Webster. I still believe that by the 2011/12 Batum will become better than Webster. He is just not there at the moment.

 

[STOMP]

I agree with most of what you wrote. However, you are exaggerating their age difference by a year. The both have early December birthdays. Nic was only 19 for the first month of his rookie year. Just like Martell was 22 for the first month of this season.

thanks for the correction

So, yes, Nick put up similar numbers at 19/20 to what Martell was putting up at 22/23 (until very recently). Every player develops at a different rate. Martell is looking like a "late" bloomer. A big part of that is mental (confidence) in Martell's case, but he had a bigger leap than Nic. Martell went straight from high school to the NBA. Nic had played professionally in Europe before coming to the NBA. So, he had experience playing against older players. Martell didn't.

how many seasons did Nic toil in the French leagues as a teenager? I doubt it matches the level of competition that Martell's had in his 3 previous years going against older players in the NBA. Dude didn't just rot on the bench either, every year he enjoyed a healthy slice of minutes. How many NBA players are from Lisieux compared to Seattle? If you're comparing who's background better prepared them for success early on in the league, I definitely would argue it was Martell.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

I was not arguing otherwise. I too think that Batum will end up the better player. But, at this very point in time, I think that Webster is edging him out. If Webster continues to play his current 2010 clip, when Batum returns he will not be as good as Webs.

Why should a guy who showed as much as Batum did last year suddenly be stunted in his 2nd especially with what he showed ballhandling/playmaking this past summer representing France? The sophomore year is often the season talented players take a big step forward as they know whats what with the league and what their coach wants. Nic will be in his 2nd year lifting weights and working out with PA's extensive support staff. Coach Monte has relayed his shot is much improved from his rookie year... and of course his rookie year %'s were already at or above sharpshooter Martell's career numbers from the line, field, and 3 point land. Per minute his rookie year stats were above Martell's career #s in rebounds, steals, blocks, assists, and had fewer turnovers. We'll see soon enough whats what with Nic's game and if Martell is on a hot streak or past his mental barriers and on a new plateau.

STOMP

 

[Boob-No-More]

How many seasons did Nic toil in the French leagues as a teenager? I doubt it matches the level of competition that Martell's had in his 3 previous years going against older players in the NBA. Dude didn't just rot on the bench either, every year he enjoyed a healthy slice of minutes. How many NBA players are from Lisieux compared to Seattle? If you're comparing who's background better prepared them for success early on in the league, I definitely would argue it was Martell.

Batum played two years in the French professional league and 3 years before that on the French U18 national team. I'd say his U18 Youth League experience alone prepared him better for the NBA than anything Martell saw in high school. Batum traveled all over Europe playing in tournaments against the other top national teams. Throw in two years playing professionally, and I'd say Nic was definitely more prepared for the NBA than Martell when they were drafted/rookies.

That was my point - that Batum was better prepared for the NBA as a rookie than Webster. Not that 1st year Batum was more prepared more than 5th year Webster. And that's one reason Nic was able to contribute more to the team immediately and it's taken Martell 3+ years in the NBA to catch up.

BNM

 

[STOMP]

Batum played two years in the French professional league and 3 years before that on the French U18 national team. I'd say his U18 Youth League experience alone prepared him better for the NBA than anything Martell saw in high school. Batum traveled all over Europe playing in tournaments against the other top national teams. Throw in two years playing professionally, and I'd say Nic was definitely more prepared for the NBA than Martell when they were drafted/rookies.

That was my point - that Batum was better prepared for the NBA as a rookie than Webster. Not that 1st year Batum was more prepared more than 5th year Webster. And that's one reason Nic was able to contribute more to the team immediately and it's taken Martell 3+ years in the NBA to catch up.

catch up almost... MW's 4th year in the league stats (having missed his true 4th year) still only arguably match Batum's rookie year stats.

I think we're down to splitting hairs and pretty much on the same page in our analysis

STOMP

 

[jlprk]

Nic is at most 1/2" taller then Martell and has about the same length. Essentially they are the same size.

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2008-Nike-Hoop-Summit-Official-Measurements,-plus-2007-Analysis/

STOMP

Yes, both players were measured at 6'7.75 in shoes. I guess Batum seems taller because he plays bigger, like a forward. Until this season, Webster played outside like a guard. Now someone on the slow coaching staff has finally told him to make rebounding higher priority than shooting, so his stats look better. Only a couple of years till they teach Oden some offensive moves.

While checking, I noticed how similar they supposedly are. Wingspan is Batum 7'0.75, Webster 6' 11. But standing reach is Batum 8'8.75, Webster 8' 10. So Webster reaches up farther, despite less girth. The distance between the two shoulders must be less for Webster than Batum. Or the distance between the top of the shoulders and the top of the head must be less. Webster must be a pinhead.

Either that or the guy who measured him was the pinhead. Supposedly Webster weighed 230 (I remember him as high school thin as a rookie), but Batum was only 214.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pHDi7zrKuf5zRhnAoxstLcA

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&sort2=ASC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

Damn, and now I see Post #42. Well, I'm posting this anyway. Spent too much time on it not to.

 

[julius]

I think we're down to splitting hairs and pretty much on the same page in our analysis

STOMP

splitting hairs is a national past-time on message boards.

 

[STOMP]

Yes, both players were measured at 6'7.75 in shoes. I guess Batum seems taller because he plays bigger, like a forward. Until this season, Webster played outside like a guard. Now someone on the slow coaching staff has finally told him to make rebounding higher priority than shooting, so his stats look better. Only a couple of years till they teach Oden some offensive moves.

While checking, I noticed how similar they supposedly are. Wingspan is Batum 7'0.75, Webster 6' 11. But standing reach is Batum 8'8.75, Webster 8' 10. So Webster reaches up farther, despite less girth. The distance between the two shoulders must be less for Webster than Batum. Or the distance between the top of the shoulders and the top of the head must be less. Webster must be a pinhead.

Either that or the guy who measured him was the pinhead. Supposedly Webster weighed 230 (I remember him as high school thin as a rookie), but Batum was only 214.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pHDi7zrKuf5zRhnAoxstLcA

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&sort2=ASC&draft=0&pos=0&sort=

Damn, and now I see Post #42. Well, I'm posting this anyway. Spent too much time on it not to.

Webster was fat his first couple years in the league. He noticeably lost weight his 3rd offseason and spoke to changing his diet

STOMP

 

[Boob-No-More]

catch up almost... MW's 4th year in the league stats (having missed his true 4th year) still only arguably match Batum's rookie year stats.

I think we're down to splitting hairs and pretty much on the same page in our analysis

STOMP

Yep, my main point was that the age difference is 3 years, not 4.

Although if Martell keeps playing like he has been this month, his stats this year will significantly exceed Batum's rookie numbers - but, that's a BIG "if".

That's another difference between the two players - Batum was more consistent as a rookie than Webster has ever been (so far).

BNM