About this draft pick we might get from NO

[blazerkor]

If we end up getting the NO pick and it ends up being a decent pick, the trade won't be horrible.... but gosh I really thought we could do better for CJ. He's really showing how good he can be as the point guard and it's super annoying.

IF we get that pick then that one isn't to terribly bad but when trading a guy as special as CJ along with a guy that has the ability to contribute that Larry does, you have to get solid returns not gambles. So the fact that this pick is such a huge gamble is completely unacceptable to me... the fact is the conditions and contingencies on that pick should have been better... I mean if they get to keep that top four protection then we get the best pick out of their pick, the Lakers pick or the Bucks who they get in a swap situation in 2024... without condition. The fact that they have so many picks between now and the pick we took as the contingency just shows me how played Cronin was getting... then the fact that if that Bucks pick somehow ends up top 4 we're just fucked... fucking ridiculous.

All of that said, these are small things compared to getting Keon, Justise a 2025 second rounder and cap relief for two quality starting or sixth man type players in Norm and RoCo... that's just so incredibly fucking bad. Look at what RoCo has been giving them as opposed to what they were getting out of Winslow. I also don't want to hear about how Justise is a better fit here and RoCo is there because what Justise has given us has been numbers getting starters minutes in losses while RoCo has been a huge contributor keeping them winning as many as they've been losing. I really wish Norm hadn't hurt himself so people in here could see just how bad of a trade this was but you'll see it when he heals up and is playing a ton of minutes with PG13 and Kawhi next season.

 

[wizenheimer]

If we end up getting the NO pick and it ends up being a decent pick, the trade won't be horrible.... but gosh I really thought we could do better for CJ. He's really showing how good he can be as the point guard and it's super annoying.

what he's showing is about 3 things we already knew:

1) he can put up great numbers when he's on a hot streak. But based on his career, there's a strong chance this kind of shooting he's showing is unsustainable

2) He can also put up great numbers when he's the #1 option, which he has been in New Orleans

3) CJ, as the #1 option does not make for a good team. The Pels are 5-8 with CJ

now I know some will say "but the Pels have been injured (Ingram & Zion) so record is deceptive". But the thing is if Ingram and Zion are healthy, CJ will not be the #1 option posting the highest FGA rate and usage rate of his career

all that's not to say the Blazers did great on the Pels trade. I think they could have got back better draft asset(s) for starters. But that might be a quibble because if the Blazers get Josh Hart, a 2022 lottery pick,and a 21M TPE for CJ they've done pretty well

 

[HailBlazers]

4.) He can make some defensive plays but overall can't guard a chair.

 

[blazerkor]

what he's showing is about 3 things we already knew:

1) he can put up great numbers when he's on a hot streak. But based on his career, there's a strong chance this kind of shooting he's showing is unsustainable

2) He can also put up great numbers when he's the #1 option, which he has been in New Orleans

3) CJ, as the #1 option does not make for a good team. The Pels are 5-8 with CJ

now I know some will say "but the Pels have been injured (Ingram & Zion) so record is deceptive". But the thing is if Ingram and Zion are healthy, CJ will not be the #1 option posting the highest FGA rate and usage rate of his career

all that's not to say the Blazers did great on the Pels trade. I think they could have got back better draft asset(s) for starters. But that might be a quibble because if the Blazers get Josh Hart, a 2022 lottery pick,and a 21M TPE for CJ they've done pretty well

I would change your second point to, he can put up great numbers when he's running the offense which he will be doing when Ingram and if Zion gets healthy. That record is incredibly deceptive because at first they weren't having CJ run the offense which was a mistake, then they tore it up when he was running the offense with Ingram there with him, then Ingram went down and CJ had to take some games off for COVID. CJ had more value than we got for him and let's not forget that they got Larry too who could be back by the end of this season but they will definitely have next season at a great price. If the pick conveys then this was just a bad deal and if it turns into that 2025 Bucks pick, the deal was an unmitigated disaster.

 

[wizenheimer]

I would change your second point to, he can put up great numbers when he's running the offense which he will be doing when Ingram and if Zion gets healthy. That record is incredibly deceptive because at first they weren't having CJ run the offense which was a mistake, then they tore it up when he was running the offense with Ingram there with him, then Ingram went down and CJ had to take some games off for COVID. CJ had more value than we got for him and let's not forget that they got Larry too who could be back by the end of this season but they will definitely have next season at a great price. If the pick conveys then this was just a bad deal and if it turns into that 2025 Bucks pick, the deal was an unmitigated disaster.

don't agree. I don't gauge CJ as high as you do. And I don't gauge Nance that high either. mainly because he spends way too much time in street clothes

you seem to be basing this evaluation on an assumption that other teams were lined up to make better offers for C?

 

[Phatguysrule]

It's cool man there have been multiple reports siting sources from front office (obviously they're anonymous so you take it for what it's worth) saying that we never gave them a chance and that they would have paid more for Norm. Just the fact that there were teams who wanted to give us more value for Norm but didn't get a chance to go there tells you all you need to know. Norm's contract is not shitty. He's a starting level player in the league locked into a deal that never goes above 20M through his entire prime. I get it that sometimes teams like deals that have more flexibility but he signed a team friendly deal. That Norm/RoCo debacle set the trade market for our team, that we were selling low and we did it again closer to the deadline with CJ and Larry. Look at what CJ has been able to do when playing with Ingram and tell me that the Pelicans didn't get over on us.

Some people on here for whatever reason (I seriously can't understand it) won't admit that we took way less value back in both of those trades, more so the Clippers deal but still both. I don't know why they would stick up for the deals, I really have no idea. We can get better next season than we were to start this season but that doesn't mean that it was OK to give up so much more value than we got in return.

I've seen no evidence that there were better offers out there. It's not a refusal to admit, it's lack of evidence.

Why would I believe something without evidence? I've seen no other trades for similar players that yielded more, or much demand for players or contracts like that.

It also sounds like we were trying to put those guys in situations they wanted to be in. So if we got fewer 2nd round picks to make that happen for them I'm good with it.

What else were you thinking we could have gotten, and why would it have been better?

 

[Hoopguru]

I've seen no evidence that there were better offers out there. It's not a refusal to admit, it's lack of evidence.

Why would I believe something without evidence? I've seen no other trades for similar players that yielded more, or much demand for players or contracts like that.

It also sounds like we were trying to put those guys in situations they wanted to be in. So if we got fewer 2nd round picks to make that happen for them I'm good with it.

What else were you thinking we could have gotten, and why would it have been better?

If his plan was to free up money in order to pay the new allstar he's going to trade for, with picks and some, and pay Simons, extend Dame maybe pay Nurk, young players or vets with reasonable contacts like Harts works.

 

[blazerkor]

You Cronin apologists know better than all of the former GMs out there, better than all of the national media and former players. It's fantastic that we get such experts in here. Just go ahead and give me your example of another player "like CJ" and what he WAS traded for what makes you think the Pelicans trade was so great? While you're at it justify the robbery that was the Clippers trade.

Seriously I don't know what compels people in here to defend bad trades after they happen. It really doesn't matter if we get better next season than we were to start this season because we gave up more value than we took back. I don't mind a small step back if it means large steps forward but this was a big step back and obviously getting robbed in the first trade bled over into the second one and quite frankly the third trade where we took a washed player who is an unrestricted free agent and can't play for the rest of his contract for a promising prospect. You guys just go ahead and keep thinking that Cronin did a great job. Whatever makes you happy I guess.

 

[STOMP]

cuz they have can't see past their hatred for Olshey to evaluate these deals rationally. they think cronin is simply undoing Olshey's mistakes so it's OK to take back shit return in trades

Most of this board had the exact same reaction to John Nash following Trader Bob. Oh joy! Every trade & pick sucks, but we're cleaning up BW's mistakes and creating a culture!

I thought Soapy was clearly inept and wanted him gone many seasons ago. I've been slack jawed at the moves made thus far from Cronin, but... it seems pretty obvious those moves were dictated by those from above for cost cutting purposes. Yes of course the current mix wasn't working and some of the draft assets acquired aren't realized yet, but I'm holding off truly blaming Cronin's hoops judgement until this offseason as I feel they're angling for a sale.

STOMP

 

[wizenheimer]

You Cronin apologists know better than all of the former GMs out there, better than all of the national media and former players. It's fantastic that we get such experts in here. Just go ahead and give me your example of another player "like CJ" and what he WAS traded for what makes you think the Pelicans trade was so great? While you're at it justify the robbery that was the Clippers trade.

Seriously I don't know what compels people in here to defend bad trades after they happen. It really doesn't matter if we get better next season than we were to start this season because we gave up more value than we took back. I don't mind a small step back if it means large steps forward but this was a big step back and obviously getting robbed in the first trade bled over into the second one and quite frankly the third trade where we took a washed player who is an unrestricted free agent and can't play for the rest of his contract for a promising prospect. You guys just go ahead and keep thinking that Cronin did a great job. Whatever makes you happy I guess.

* CJ was essentially traded for:

) Hart
) a 2022 lottery pick (likely)
) two 2nd round picks
) two TPE's, one of 21M and another of 3.3M
) and 40M in cap-savings this season plus 77M in cap savings the next 2 seasons (includes Nance)

(I know the Blazers added Nance but that was simply Portland dumping sunk cost in an injury prone player while making room to re-sign Simons and Nurkic)
**************************************************

* Porzingis was traded for:

) Dinwiddie (comparable to Hart)
) Davis Bertrans, who happens to have one of the worst mid-range contracts in the league

(And Dallas had to add a 2nd round pick to the trade)
***************************************************

* Caris LeVert was traded for:

) Ricky Rubio's expiring contract
) 2022 first round pick (currently 19th)
) two 2nd round picks
****************************************************

I'm sure you could go back in time and point to examples that support your argument. I could go back and point to examples that refute it. I just looked at this season because every trade deadline has different dynamics

I think Porzingis is close enough to CJ in value to use as a gauge, both in talent and in contract. And in this case, contracts are important because they help set value and both players have about the same bloated contract

Portland definitely got a better return for CJ than Dallas did for Porzingis. They got 3 picks instead of giving one up, and one of those picks could be a top-10 pick. Hart and Dinwiddie are comparable players



Dinwiddie is better at assists; Hart is a more efficient scorer, better rebounder, and better defender. He also complements Dame/Ant better than Dinwiddie would, IMO. And Hart costs 5M/year less

 

[blazerkor]

* CJ was essentially traded for:

) Hart
) a 2022 lottery pick (likely)
) two 2nd round picks
) two TPE's, one of 21M and another of 3.3M
) and 40M in cap-savings this season plus 77M in cap savings the next 2 seasons (includes Nance)

(I know the Blazers added Nance but that was simply Portland dumping sunk cost in an injury prone player while making room to re-sign Simons and Nurkic)
**************************************************

* Porzingis was traded for:

) Dinwiddie (comparable to Hart)
) Davis Bertrans, who happens to have one of the worst mid-range contracts in the league

(And Dallas had to add a 2nd round pick to the trade)
***************************************************

* Caris LeVert was traded for:

) Ricky Rubio's expiring contract
) 2022 first round pick (currently 19th)
) two 2nd round picks
****************************************************

I'm sure you could go back in time and point to examples that support your argument. I could go back and point to examples that refute it. I just looked at this season because every trade deadline has different dynamics

I think Porzingis is close enough to CJ in value to use as a gauge, both in talent and in contract. And in this case, contracts are important because they help set value and both players have about the same contract

Portland definitely got a better return for CJ than Dallas did for Porzingis. They got 3 picks instead of giving one up, and one of those picks could be a top-10 pick. Hart and Dinwiddie are comparable players

View attachment 46259

Dinwiddie is better at assists; Hart is a more efficient scorer, better rebounder, and better defender. He also complements Dame/Ant better than Dinwiddie would, IMO. And Hart costs 5M/year less

I thought that the Mavericks gave up Porzingis for too little but Porzingis can only be seen as having close to the same value as CJ when considering their production while on the floor. When you subtract Porzingis' injury history from his value I don't think that CJ and KP can possibly be looked at as similar. Again though, I thought the Mavericks did get too little back for him in that trade but all of the risk was being assumed by the Wizards because of KP's extensive injury history that has cost his teams over 40% of the games that he should have been available for in his career and those injuries have mostly been recurring knee problems which we know very well are likely to cause more significant time missed going forward. So while we took the risk in our trade that we might have the most valuable asset that we received diminish greatly in value (if that lotto pick becomes a 2025 Bucks first or possibly never conveying at all), the Mavericks unloaded a player who is very likely going to miss significant time throughout the remainder of his contract. I mean even on the court you only have to look at how they've both produced since being traded to see that CJ is the more valuable of the two.

 

[wizenheimer]

I thought that the Mavericks gave up Porzingis for too little but Porzingis can only be seen as having close to the same value as CJ when considering their production while on the floor. When you subtract Porzingis' injury history from his value I don't think that CJ and KP can possibly be looked at as similar. Again though, I thought the Mavericks did get too little back for him in that trade but all of the risk was being assumed by the Wizards because of KP's extensive injury history that has cost his teams over 40% of the games that he should have been available for in his career and those injuries have mostly been recurring knee problems which we know very well are likely to cause more significant time missed going forward. So while we took the risk in our trade that we might have the most valuable asset that we received diminish greatly in value (if that lotto pick becomes a 2025 Bucks first or possibly never conveying at all), the Mavericks unloaded a player who is very likely going to miss significant time throughout the remainder of his contract. I mean even on the court you only have to look at how they've both produced since being traded to see that CJ is the more valuable of the two.

but what you're doing there is quibbling about some details...no? If CJ has more value, and I'm not saying he doesn't, the gap isn't as big as you're saying, IMO. Yes, Porzingis has an injury history and that's a factor. But Porzingis, when healthy, is a 2-way player and his defense has value

you said: "Just go ahead and give me your example of another player "like CJ" and what he WAS traded for what makes you think the Pelicans trade was so great?"...your ask

I did that. And if there is a gap in value between CJ and Porzingis, there is definitely a gap in value for the returns Portland and Dallas received. Portland got a first and 2 seconds; Dallas gave up a 2nd. Portland got a 21M and 3.3M TPE; Dallas got none. Portland got over 100M in salary savings; Dallas will pay 10M more than they sent out. And again, Hart and Dinwiddie are comparable players so that's a push...except for that I think Hart is a great complement to Dame/Ant

as far as what CJ has done as a Pel...I'm saying it's almost certainly unsustainable, just like his hot 12 game start last season. His career PER is 17.6; his Pels mark is 24.8. His career TS% is .553; his Pels mark is .615. His career assist rate is 18.4%; his Pels mark is 36.6%. His career winshare/48 in 0.104; his Pels mark is 0.182. His career BPM is 1.3; his Pels mark is 7.2. He may not regress all the way back to his norms, but the 600 games he played before New Orleans sure indicate he will regress

CJ is a streaky player. He'll mix in as many bad games as good ones. That's what he's done for years. He hasn't had a rough stretch yet in New Orleans but over 600 NBA games says it's coming

I've said before I don't think the CJ trade was a great one; it's just not a bad one. But both CJ and Cronin said the Blazers tried their best to send CJ to a good situation for him. Which points out another potential benefit of the trade: when CJ, the president of the player's union, says the Blazers were looking out for him in a trade, there may be some good will payoff down the road

by the way, a debate about the Clippers trade takes another track for sure

 

[Phatguysrule]

You Cronin apologists know better than all of the former GMs out there, better than all of the national media and former players. It's fantastic that we get such experts in here. Just go ahead and give me your example of another player "like CJ" and what he WAS traded for what makes you think the Pelicans trade was so great? While you're at it justify the robbery that was the Clippers trade.

Seriously I don't know what compels people in here to defend bad trades after they happen. It really doesn't matter if we get better next season than we were to start this season because we gave up more value than we took back. I don't mind a small step back if it means large steps forward but this was a big step back and obviously getting robbed in the first trade bled over into the second one and quite frankly the third trade where we took a washed player who is an unrestricted free agent and can't play for the rest of his contract for a promising prospect. You guys just go ahead and keep thinking that Cronin did a great job. Whatever makes you happy I guess.

What was traded that we could have gotten for our guys instead? It's a simple question.

 

[Hoopguru]

but what you're doing there is quibbling about some details...no? If CJ has more value, and I'm not saying he doesn't, the gap isn't as big as you're saying, IMO. Yes, Porzingis has an injury history and that's a factor. But Porzingis, when healthy, is a 2-way player and his defense has value

you said: "Just go ahead and give me your example of another player "like CJ" and what he WAS traded for what makes you think the Pelicans trade was so great?"...your ask

I did that. And if there is a gap in value between CJ and Porzingis, there is definitely a gap in value for the returns Portland and Dallas received. Portland got a first and 2 seconds; Dallas gave up a 2nd. Portland got a 21M and 3.3M TPE; Dallas got none. Portland got over 100M in salary savings; Dallas will pay 10M more than they sent out. And again, Hart and Dinwiddie are comparable players so that's a push...except for that I think Hart is a great complement to Dame/Ant

as far as what CJ has done as a Pel...I'm saying it's almost certainly unsustainable, just like his hot 12 game start last season. His career PER is 17.6; his Pels mark is 24.8. His career TS% is .553; his Pels mark is .615. His career assist rate is 18.4%; his Pels mark is 36.6%. His career winshare/48 in 0.104; his Pels mark is 0.182. His career BPM is 1.3; his Pels mark is 7.2. He may not regress all the way back to his norms, but the 600 games he played before New Orleans sure indicate he will regress

CJ is a streaky player. He'll mix in as many bad games as good ones. That's what he's done for years. He hasn't had a rough stretch yet in New Orleans but over 600 NBA games says it's coming

I've said before I don't think the CJ trade was a great one; it's just not a bad one. But both CJ and Cronin said the Blazers tried their best to send CJ to a good situation for him. Which points out another potential benefit of the trade: when CJ, the president of the player's union, says the Blazers were looking out for him in a trade, there may be some good will payoff down the road

by the way, a debate about the Clippers trade takes another track for sure

I was a CJ fan but realized it was time for a change in the back court. I think his's performance may be more sustainable as a Pel as he will be open a lot more with the bigs he has now.
I thought we did ok with the trade and Hart is going to prove to be a great role player next year at a much better price.

 

[Natebishop3]

I was a CJ fan but realized it was time for a change in the back court. I think his's performance may be more sustainable as a Pel as he will be open a lot more with the bigs he has now.
I thought we did ok with the trade and Hart is going to prove to be a great role player next year at a much better price.

If we're able to get the pick and draft a rotation player, I think the trade ends up being good. If we don't get the pick and we end up getting the crappy Milwaukee pick, the trade won't be as good.

 

[blazerkor]

What was traded that we could have gotten for our guys instead? It's a simple question.

The myriad trades that weren't made have no bearing on the actual trades that we did make. The fact is that no one as good as CJ was on the market. LaVert sure got a helluva lot more than we did for Norm and RoCo. Everyone acting like Larry had no value is kind of hilarious too. It's cool. You guys just keep telling yourself that's the most we could have gotten for those guys, it's a pretty ridiculous assertion to me but that's fine.

@wizenheimer obviously made a compelling comparison to CJ with KP but I think three things about it. One is that KP's injury history is not a minor quibble, it makes him far far less reliable than CJ and the best ability is availability. Two is that KP being a two way player... or rather I should say a shot blocker on defense and a multifaceted scorer on offense, just makes him as good as CJ when both are on the floor in my book because CJ is by far the better offensive player, he's a better facilitator, he creates his own opportunities and scores more just as efficiently. The last thing is, again I don't think the Mavs made a very good trade themselves.

Like I said, it's cool though, if you guys want to give Cronin a free pass when it's obvious that he took less value back because he valued shedding salary more than he valued getting a fair exchange in his first two deals as a GM, that's your prerogative but don't be surprised when teams expect to take advantage of him every time he makes a deal going forward. He set a terrible precedent.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The myriad trades that weren't made have no bearing on the actual trades that we did make. The fact is that no one as good as CJ was on the market. LaVert sure got a helluva lot more than we did for Norm and RoCo. Everyone acting like Larry had no value is kind of hilarious too. It's cool. You guys just keep telling yourself that's the most we could have gotten for those guys, it's a pretty ridiculous assertion to me but that's fine.

@wizenheimer obviously made a compelling comparison to CJ with KP but I think three things about it. One is that KP's injury history is not a minor quibble, it makes him far far less reliable than CJ and the best ability is availability. Two is that KP being a two way player... or rather I should say a shot blocker on defense and a multifaceted scorer on offense, just makes him as good as CJ when both are on the floor in my book because CJ is by far the better offensive player, he's a better facilitator, he creates his own opportunities and scores more just as efficiently. The last thing is, again I don't think the Mavs made a very good trade themselves.

Like I said, it's cool though, if you guys want to give Cronin a free pass when it's obvious that he took less value back because he valued shedding salary more than he valued getting a fair exchange in his first two deals as a GM, that's your prerogative but don't be surprised when teams expect to take advantage of him every time he makes a deal going forward. He set a terrible precedent.

Caris Levert is 6'6", young, and has a great contract. There is talk of him making Cleveland a title contender.

Yeah, he's worth more, so he got more in return.

Josh Hart is actually scoring only 1 less point per game than CJ did as a blazer this year, and is doing so with 7 % higher efficiency. And plays better defense. On a lower salary.

 

[STOMP]

If we're able to get the pick and draft a rotation player, I think the trade ends up being good. If we don't get the pick and we end up getting the crappy Milwaukee pick, the trade won't be as good.

If the Pels pick falls outside the lotto, I won't be disappointed as I think the Bucks pick stands a really good chance of being more valuable. By 2025 Jrue will be 34 & Middleton 33. How 30 year old Giannis's troublesome knees will be is to be determined, but with the Bucks big three fading to age and no young players of note looking to take their place, he may be forcing his way to greener pastures then or prior. Then it's back to being Milwaukee...

STOMP

 

[TBpup]

Josh Hart is actually scoring only 1 less point per game than CJ did as a blazer this year, and is doing so with 7 % higher efficiency. And plays better defense. On a lower salary.

Love the improved efficiency, size, and defense. For less money is a bonus. It was never about CJ not being a good (offensive) player. It was about the fit and style.

 

[illmatic99]

third time i've quoted this article today.

https://theathletic.com/3198951/202...n-simmons-back-and-more-nba-news-inside-pass/

 

[Bingo Bango]

what TBpup said

Charlotte had rights to the pick if it was outside of the lottery. Pels still owned the rights for 1-14; so they could trade those

Ah, how interesting (and complicated). So three different teams can possibly get the pick, depending on where it lands in the draft:

Pelicans (1-4)
Blazers (5-14)
Hornets (15-32)

Did I get that right?

 

[wizenheimer]

Ah, how interesting (and complicated). So three different teams can possibly get the pick, depending on where it lands in the draft:

Pelicans (1-4)
Blazers (5-14)
Hornets (15-32)

Did I get that right?

yes, you nailed it

there was a definite risk the Blazers would not get that pick, but after the risk-adverse decade of Olshey, I say that risk was acceptable, and the payoff if the gamble succeeds could be substantial. Blazer stepped into the risk/reward game at a higher level

I think the fall-back compensation if that pick doesn't convey could have been better:

* To start with, Cronin allowed the Pels to put 1-4 protections on the 2025 Milwaukee pick. And if that pick doesn't convey, Blazers get nothing...that's bad



* The Pels have the Lakers pick this year if it's a top-10 pick. Right now it's 12th, and it probably won't convey to New Orleans. That wouldn't have been a very good asset to receive as the odds it will convey are small

* but, the Pels had both their own and the Lakers 2024 picks. The Lakers pick is unprotected. I believe Cronin could have pried one of those picks lose from the Pels, but if the Clippers trade is the template, he may have simply accepted a quick deal instead of holding out for a better one. I'm half-convinced Portland could have held out for either one of those picks, with limited protections, then, if that pick didn't convey, land on the Milwaukee pick