Politics Abraham Lincoln: worst president ever?

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Sinobas said:
It's considered an act of war, but it would have been FAR different than the slaughter of almost 3 quarters of a million people and all the property that was destroyed.
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Yes a blockade is an act of war. Lincoln committed two acts of war after the south seceded.
The first was sending Federal troops to occupy the old abandon fort in Charleston bay, fort Sumter which at that time was territory of South Carolina and the Confederacy.
And he did order the blockade of the south..
These two acts of war goaded them into firing on Fort Sumter, as it was part of the blockade of Charleston.
 
For most of our history, people felt paramount loyalty to their state/colony, then to the nation. We were referred to as "These United States" before the war. It would be like if the other EU nations invaded England to preserve the European Union. Oh, but they have "no choice" right?
 
There was a lot of pressure on Lincoln to make peace with the South and just let them go. No matter what the Supreme Court might say about it, those states would not be part of the United States.

If the South won, it wouldn't matter, either.

So it really doesn't matter what the Court rules on this one.
 
When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

(No matter what the Queen of England, the High Court of England, or the US Supreme Court says otherwise).
 
Denny Crane said:
The Hawaiians would learn that leaving the empire would worsen their poverty
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You don't know the local Hawaiians by this post.....it would affect the mainland haoles who are profiting and occupying their best land....the local Japanese-Hawaiians are pretty savvy business folks....the Japanese tourist industry alone would not dry up ...it fact in would probably increase...A lot of locals live in pretty much poverty as it is. Mainlanders will continue to vacation there no matter who's running the joint. Locals know how to live without a lot of shopping...food grows itself, fish, wild boar, cattle.....Hawaii is not a desert....it's not turning into a ghost town
 
Yet another issue people must prove x is right.
When it's factual both Lincoln and the south were to blame for the civil war.

To act like one is innocent while the other is free of guilt is just utter blindness.
 
MarAzul said:
Who will favor Trump going to war to force California to remain in the Union?

A loud Nay here.
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Minstrel would have to say yes to that. It just underscores how ridiculous his argument is.
 
riverman said:
You don't know the local Hawaiians by this post.....it would affect the mainland haoles who are profiting and occupying their best land....the local Japanese-Hawaiians are pretty savvy business folks....the Japanese tourist industry alone would not dry up ...it fact in would probably increase...A lot of locals live in pretty much poverty as it is. Mainlanders will continue to vacation there no matter who's running the joint. Locals know how to live without a lot of shopping...food grows itself, fish, wild boar, cattle.....Hawaii is not a desert....it's not turning into a ghost town
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You don't know the Hawaiians. The typical Hawaiian makes half what people do on the mainland, while the rich mainland haoles buy up their land.

Tourism is nowhere near enough to save Hawaii from losing their (yes) Interstate Highway funds - losing those alone would see the roads throughout the state go into disrepair.

I lived there for several years and absolutely know the people and this issue. Their nation was stolen from them by the US, their government deposed, and they were voted into the US by non Hawaiians.

Some of them believe they can rent out Pearl Harbor to the US after seceding and that would pay for a lot. I don't think the US would keep the base there. There are plenty of other places they can operate from.
 
honkicracker said:
Yet another issue people must prove x is right.
When it's factual both Lincoln and the south were to blame for the civil war.

To act like one is innocent while the other is free of guilt is just utter blindness.
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Nobody thinks the South is innocent in this. The point is that Lincoln is deified.
 
Denny Crane said:
Nobody thinks the South is innocent in this. The point is that Lincoln is deified.
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Disagree. There are many I know irl, who believe Lincoln is fully 100% responsible for the civil war.
This thread while not the o/p of it. You could question some posts in it, if they truly believe the south has any blame whatsoever in the civil war.
 
Sinobas said:
Minstrel would have to say yes to that. It just underscores how ridiculous his argument is.
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Yes, still waiting. It appears he may not be ready for CWII, or even the righteousness this action.
 
barfo said:
I was taught that Lincoln and Grant were different people. Maybe that was incorrect?

barfo
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Sinobas said:
Oh please....you should be embarassed to make such a pitiful argument.
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There's so much crazy in this thread I'm unsure if you actually think Grant and Lincoln were the same person.

barfo
 
MarAzul said:
Who will favor Trump going to war to force California to remain in the Union?

A loud Nay here.
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Are you willing to pay more taxes every year? If CA leaves you'll have to, because they subsidize other states.

Luckily, OR would probably leave with CA in any plausible scenario.

barfo
 
Denny Crane said:
There is nothing in the constitution forbidding secession.
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I never said there was. I said that the Supreme Court has thus far been consistent that the Constitution formed an (in their words) "indestructible union." So until the Supreme Court finds differently, that's the legal interpretation by the nation's highest court.
 
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Ok guys, just imagine for a minute, that slavery never existed in the US, and the south succeeded for other issues, such as tariffs etc. Then wouldn't you agree that the war and the way Lincoln handled it was an epic disaster?

His motivation at the start of the war was NOT slavery. In hindsight, that's a sort of moral justification that overlays the war. But it ended slavery via a way that caused the most collateral damage imaginable. None of the union causualties owned slaves and about 2/3rds of confederate soldiers did not own slaves. So that means only about 15% of the 700,000 causualties of the civil war were slave owners.
 
Denny Crane said:
You don't know the Hawaiians
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The typical Hawaiian spends a fraction of what mainland haoles do and they have a family support system most haoles don't have....child care, family deals with, senior care, same thing...I know many Hawaiian Hawaiians.....you act like it's a dust bowl .....all the years I lived there, there were probably 100k homeless Hawaiians....if they took the island back, that would simply not be the case.
 
Denny Crane said:
Tourism is nowhere near enough to save Hawaii from losing their (yes) Interstate Highway funds
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There's no interstate in Hawaii...the Big Island has basically one two lane major road. Tourism and agriculture are thriving there....mainlanders pretty much go there to spend, not make money. Seasonal fishermen winter there and retired folks retire there.....Hawaiians cannot afford the Mar Lago type establishments that mainland companies build...they'd be fine...
 
Denny Crane said:
The typical Hawaiian makes half what people do on the mainland
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I had Hawaiian bosses that made more than me in the teaching profession and construction...fishermen and ginger farmers there make way more than a school teacher is paid....your narrative just isn't reality based here Denny
 
riverman said:
There's no interstate in Hawaii...the Big Island has basically one two lane major road. Tourism and agriculture are thriving there....mainlanders pretty much go there to spend, not make money. Seasonal fishermen winter there and retired folks retire there.....Hawaiians cannot afford the Mar Lago type establishments that mainland companies build...they'd be fine...
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You have no clue. There are interstate highways in Hawaii, just for the sake of getting the highway funds to the islands.

The 2 lane road that encircles Kauai is an interstate highway.

History is full of stories of similar islands that left their empire that have nearly starved because of it.
 
Denny Crane said:
interstate highway.
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interstate......Hawaii is surrounded by oceans...sorry, you don't have a clue...sure they have public roads but interstates cross state lines....not happening in the islands..
 
Denny Crane said:
History is full of stories of similar islands that left their empire that have nearly starved because of it.
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see Taiwan...New Zealand...etc....and get back to me...islands that have no resources could suffer...Hawaii is teeming with natural resources and friendly weather ...
 
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