Politics Abraham Lincoln: worst president ever?

[riverman]

I call it a hiway.....interstate means between states...if they call it an interstate, it's purely an oxymoron...

 

[Denny Crane]

https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/hawaii.cfm

The Rambler is often asked how Hawaii can have Interstate highways when the roads clearly don't connect two States. The question is often followed by the observation that, just in case the Rambler hadn't noticed, Hawaii doesn't share a border with any other State and is, in fact, ____ miles away. (The blank indicates that people asking the question don't know how many miles away, but they're pretty sure it's a Far Piece. Actually, Hawaii is 2,400 miles from San Francisco, so it would take a structure the length of I-10 to bridge the gap by road.)

Let's face it. "Interstate" means "existing between or including different States," so Interstates in Hawaii must be, if nothing else, a linguistic inconsistency. Why is it that people suddenly become linguists when it comes to Interstates in Hawaii?

Okay, okay, here's the scoop.

For the most part, the Interstate System is a connected network of highways bound by the Canadian and Mexican borders, the Gulf of Mexico, and the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. However, Hawaii has several Interstate routes that are not connected to the rest of the System but are nevertheless part of it.

Hawaii's Interstate routes were an outgrowth of the statehood movement that culminated on March 18, 1959, when President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed legislation making Hawaii a State. That same year, Section 105 of the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1959 directed the Secretary of Commerce, where the U.S. Bureau of Public Roads (BPR) was located at the time, to study the need for Interstate routes in Alaska and Hawaii. After identifying possible routes, the BPR evaluated them according to the same criteria applied during a 1957 expansion of the Interstate System: national defense; system integration (the value of the route as a connector between centers of population and industry); service to industry, fishing, agriculture, mining, and forestry, as measured by the value of products or by traffic data; and population.

On that basis, the BPR's January 1960 report to Congress recommended a 50-mile Interstate network in Hawaii (the report recommended against designating Interstate mileage in Alaska). The Hawaii Omnibus Act, which President Eisenhower signed on July 12, 1960, removed the limitation in Federal-aid highway law that the Interstate System be designated only within the "continental United States" and provided for the regular apportionment of Interstate Construction (IC) funds to the State. On August 29, 1960, the BPR designated three routes, identified as H-1, H-2, and H-3.

 

[Denny Crane]

Interstate gets them highway funds from the US treasury. Typical government scam, but it is what it is.

 

[riverman]

so Interstates in Hawaii must be, if nothing else, a linguistic inconsistency

my point in fact

 

[Denny Crane]

my point in fact

Which is no point at all. The state would lose those highway funds, which are a considerable source of peoples' ability to even get to work in the only big city there.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

my point in fact

A point that did nothing to contradict Denny's point about money.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Which is no point at all. The state would lose those highway funds, which are a considerable source of peoples' ability to even get to work in the only big city there.

Beat me to it.

 

[riverman]

Which is no point at all

you are just baiting....I made my point...it's a point...you agreed...linguistic inconsistencies....but go ahead and argue all you want....I don't really care...your take on Hawaiian survival is really pointless and in my view....clueless....stuff that you don't need in Hawaii is really expensive...stuff that's healthy and good for you is really cheap....try buying four giant papayas in San Diego for a dollar...that's what I paid everyday in Hilo for them....it's a food paradise.even if you forage for dinner.

 

[riverman]

A point that did nothing to contradict Denny's point about money.

sure it did....Hawaii is not driven by Southern California economics ....some would say they were better off before we exported all our crap there.

 

[riverman]

A point that did nothing to contradict Denny's point about money.

the definition of a road is not a discussion about money.....you know a lot about Hawaii? I lived there, son born there, have many Hawaiian friends and listened to them.....take his view for it if you like....he just likes to talk at me instead of with me....it's a Denny addiction

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

sure it did....Hawaii is not driven by Southern California economics ....some would say they were better off before we exported all our crap there.

I'm not in this debate. Never been to Hawaii. Don't even care if they go their own way.

Your point about the name did nothing to contradict the question of the funding. That is all. They could call it state route 900000, doesn't matter.

 

[Denny Crane]

My experience with the actual native Hawaiians is that they're living under the poverty line, for the most part. On Maui, many live on the Hana side and don't interact with the white people much. They don't have phones or even electricity. If they want to read at night, it's by lantern. Sure, they can hunt and fish to stay alive, but by economic measures, they're dirt poor.

The situation is so bad for them, being forced to congregate in remote areas, that in order to not inbreed, many come over the mountain to work for the white people at those resorts making minimum wage, and to marry white men and women.

The only good jobs are at the airport, and those are too few. The statistics show that the natives make $29K household income while the rest of the nation makes over $50K.

The separation of church and state along with truancy laws forced Hawaiians to lose their religion, culture, and even language. Only long after the damage was realized was something done about it, but the damage is permanent.

The public high school on Maui has metal detectors to keep guns out. It's not exactly a safe place to send your kids.

To say that the cost of living is cheaper over there is just ignorant of the facts. A gallon of milk costs $8.99 on Oahu, a dozen eggs $3.50+, and so on. A gallon of milk costs $2.12 here in California, and a dozen eggs are often on sale here for $.99.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

the definition of a road is not a discussion about money.....you know a lot about Hawaii? I lived there, son born there, have many Hawaiian friends and listened to them.....take his view for it if you like....he just likes to talk at me instead of with me....it's a Denny addiction

Your last post was written at the same time I made mine.

Is there a road in Hawaii called Interstate H-1?

Yes or no.

Remember, I haven't been there so I don't know.

 

[Denny Crane]

you are just baiting....I made my point...it's a point...you agreed...linguistic inconsistencies....but go ahead and argue all you want....I don't really care...your take on Hawaiian survival is really pointless and in my view....clueless....stuff that you don't need in Hawaii is really expensive...stuff that's healthy and good for you is really cheap....try buying four giant papayas in San Diego for a dollar...that's what I paid everyday in Hilo for them....it's a food paradise.even if you forage for dinner.

Denny: Hawaii would lose its interstate highway funds if it seceded
riverman: Hawaii doesn't have interstate highways
Denny: see the proof, there are interstate highways there, and proof of the funds, too
riverman: you're baiting me, "interstate" is a linguistic impossibility.
Denny:

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny: Hawaii would lose its interstate highway funds if it seceded
riverman: Hawaii doesn't have interstate highways
Denny: see the proof, there are interstate highways there, and proof of the funds, too
riverman: you're baiting me, "interstate" is a linguistic impossibility.
Denny:

SlyPokerDog: would someone please smell my ass?

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Denny: Hawaii would lose its interstate highway funds if it seceded
riverman: Hawaii doesn't have interstate highways
Denny: see the proof, there are interstate highways there, and proof of the funds, too
riverman: you're baiting me, "interstate" is a linguistic impossibility.
Denny:

It is pretty bizarre.

 

[Denny Crane]

It is pretty bizarre.

I face this kind of logic quite a bit these days.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I face this kind of logic quite a bit these days.

I can't explain it.

Says you have NO clue? Then doubles down. If you had just said they'd lose federal money for roads where would this thread have gone?

 

[Denny Crane]

I can't explain it.

Says you have NO clue? Then doubles down. If you had just said they'd lose federal money for roads where would this thread have gone?

If Hawaii secedes, they expect to charge the US rent for Pearl Harbor. I think the US would move and that would crush the economy there.

But see how great it's been for Taiwan!

 

[Denny Crane]

Speaking of places that left the empire...

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/775062/12m-filipinos-living-in-extreme-poverty

More than 26 million Filipinos remain poor with almost half, or a little more than 12 million, living in extreme poverty and lacking the means to feed themselves, according to official government statistics for the first semester of 2015.

 

[Denny Crane]

And FWIW, I'm not opposed to Hawaii seceding. Their grievances are legit.

 

[riverman]

A gallon of milk costs $8.99 on Oahu

It wouldn't if the Hawaiians took over....a lot would have cows.....and you're talking about eggs? My Hawaiian friends had chickens or an auntie and uncle with chickens....those prices are geared for the tourists.....a loaf of bread in Yachats market on the coast here is about 4 times more expensive than the market 40 miles away...why? Tourists.......I taught public school and at a Japanese college there....I know about the tensions in public schools...it's why I left after my son was born...didn't want him in the school system there...but that is driven by a lot of poor or even homeless Hawaiians...but I promise you brah....none of them are hungry..most are actually overfed.....alcohol is a big problem, just like it is here. Let's say in Hawaii....lots of the natives are restless and frustrated with mainlanders.

 

[Denny Crane]

It wouldn't if the Hawaiians took over....a lot would have cows.....and you're talking about eggs? My Hawaiian friends had chickens or an auntie and uncle with chickens....those prices are geared for the tourists.....a loaf of bread in Yachats market on the coast here is about 4 times more expensive than the market 40 miles away...why? Tourists.......I taught public school and at a Japanese college there....I know about the tensions in public schools...it's why I left after my son was born...didn't want him in the school system there...but that is driven by a lot of poor or even homeless Hawaiians...but I promise you brah....none of them are hungry..most are actually overfed.....alcohol is a big problem, just like it is here.

There are dairy farms on most, if not all, of the islands. Cows are cheap, too.

 

[riverman]

There are dairy farms on most, if not all, of the islands. Cows are cheap, too.

Contrary to haole beliefs....most Hawaiians I know don't drink milk...at all. Same with Chinese folks...or eat cheeses..some do but it's not their go to diet.

 

[Denny Crane]

Contrary to haole beliefs....most Hawaiians I know don't drink milk...at all. Same with Chinese folks...or eat cheeses..some do but it's not their go to diet.

It's too expensive. Duh.

And it's not just milk, it's most everything. Gasoline, electricity, etc.

 

[Further]

There is a repeating issue in understanding history of 'reason' vs 'stated reason'. Politicians, rulers and those in power often state one reason for an action but have a very different reason actually driving them. Lincoln stated his reason for the fight was decidedly not slavery but the holding together of the union. But most accounts around the situation show that slavery was an integral wedge leading to the attempted split. Lincoln could not publicly state that slavery was the impetus for the fight. Truth is, we don't know exactly where the line lay.

However, all that is inconsequential in my eyes because the fight was required. Even if slavery would have died a natural death, when is still a huge question and as a moral nation, one building itself on principals of freedoms and equality slavery needed to stop immediately. Any slowed curtailing would have dragged the moral core of the nation down for centuries and America would have never become the epicenter of the global world. We lead by leading.

 

[Denny Crane]

There is a repeating issue in understanding history of 'reason' vs 'stated reason'. Politicians, rulers and those in power often state one reason for an action but have a very different reason actually driving them. Lincoln stated his reason for the fight was decidedly not slavery but the holding together of the union. But most accounts around the situation show that slavery was an integral wedge leading to the attempted split. Lincoln could not publicly state that slavery was the impetus for the fight. Truth is, we don't know exactly where the line lay.

However, all that is inconsequential in my eyes because the fight was required. Even if slavery would have died a natural death, when is still a huge question and as a moral nation, one building itself on principals of freedoms and equality slavery needed to stop immediately. Any slowed curtailing would have dragged the moral core of the nation down for centuries and America would have never become the epicenter of the global world. We lead by leading.

 

[Denny Crane]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Compromise

Missouri Compromise

The Missouri Compromise is the title generally attached to the legislation passed by the 16th United States Congress on May 8, 1820. The measures provided for the admission of the District of Maine as a state free to ratify a state constitution that neither recognized nor permitted slavery within the state. Further, the Compromise provided that the Missouri Territory was free to enact a state constitution that both recognized as legal and permitted (through affirmative state legislation and state government regulation), the institution of chattel slavery. In addition, it outlawed, as a matter of federal law both the recognition and legality of the institution of chattel slavery in the federal territory that remained of the Louisiana Purchase that was still unorganized and north of the 36°30′ parallel (excluding Missouri, hence "Missouri Compromise") within the Purchase lands. With these actions, the Compromise committed the largest remaining portion of Purchase territory to free soil.

 

[Denny Crane]

 

[riverman]

America is such a baby country in the history of the world....really young...the civil war was brutal but it's not all on Lincoln in my view...that was a meatgrinder of a war just like WW1 was. .
Lincoln was not the worst president by a long stretch
worse..
Tyler, Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, Andrew Jackson and Warren G Harding as well as Andrew Johnson, Grant..Nixon...W. , soon Trump will probably take top honors as the worst..