OT ACAB All Cops Are Bastards (yes EVERY one)

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Hoopguru said:
Camden's Success Was Achieved by De-Unionizing, Not ...Foundation for Economic Educationhttps://fee.org › articles › camden-s-success-was-achie...
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I liked this part.

So in May 2013, the Camden City Council officially approved resolutions to dissolve its police department. This did not mean policing stopped in Camden, however. Responsibilities were assumed by the newly established Camden County Police Department, which rehired many of the same officers.
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But yes. Reeling in the Union benefits were a big part of it.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/12/camden-policing-reforms-313750

The Camden police reform was—and remains—politically divisive. In part that was because union contracts were thrown out, leaving many on the force earning a lower salary and with fewer benefits. And it required very strange bedfellows to succeed—an all-powerful Democratic machine, a Republican governor, conservative budget-cutters and progressive police thinkers, all aligned to break an established department and start over.
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You have to get rid of the worst of both sides. You have to throw out politics (and personal biases) and focus on data based solutions.
 
yankeesince59 said:
Thanks, you beat me to it Hoop...and as you probably already know, there are other sources as well. And there are reasons why other cities have not implemented Camden's experiment.

And while some of Camdens crimes have dropped a bit, others have rose.
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Feel free to share the sources and quote the downsides.

I didn't see any negative results in that link.

I'd love to read them.
 
lol...Oh I can provide links but why should I when they will simply and arbitrarily be dismissed/discounted.

Seen this movie too many times before.
 
yankeesince59 said:
lol...Oh I can provide links but why should I when they will simply and arbitrarily be dismissed/discounted.

Seen this movie too many times before.
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Lol, shocking.

I literally just agreed with the link @Hoopguru posted. Heck it agreed with nearly everything I've been saying the entire time.
 
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Considering 10-15 years ago Camden's crime rate couldn't have gotten much worse, it tapered off but recently has kinda flat lined and some crimes are actually trending up...and Camden didn't exactly do things on their own...the state has bailed them out because they spent 4-5 times the revenue that they took in.

And again, there are reasons why more and more other cities have not adopted Camden's experiment in droves.

But yeah, gotta love people who choose to acknowledge only small portions of someone's post/link while not acknowledging the rest.


"Camden: A “Defund” Model? Not exactly"

...lol...shocking.
 
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yankeesince59 said:
Considering 10-15 years ago Camden's crime rate couldn't have gotten much worse, it tapered off but recently has kinda flat lined and some crimes are actually trending up...and Camden didn't exactly do things on their own...the state has bailed them out because they spent 4-5 times the revenue that they took in.

And again, there are reasons why more and more other cities have not adopted Camden's experiment in droves.

But yeah, gotta love people who choose to acknowledge only small portions of someone's post/link while not acknowledging the rest.


"Camden: A “Defund” Model? Not exactly"

...lol...shocking.
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How did any of that dispute anything anybody in here has said?

Where are the links that show the negative impacts?

What crimes are trending up?
 
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Camden is not a true model for all cities, for Camden maybe, but Camden was so bad that it probably couldn't get any worse and the drop in most crimes dropped nationwide during covid.

They really have not shown they can do it without help, and in their case, they simply used state aid instead of their own revenue to practically double the size of their police force, making Camden now one of the most "policed" cities in the country in proportion to their size.

Camden basically threw money at the problem...and spending 6 times the revenue that they take in is certainly a negative impact.
 
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yankeesince59 said:
New Jersey cities;

View attachment 57223
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And what were they ranked before the changes we're discussing?

You see, since we're discussing a change that happened once the population was tired of their underperforming Police department, showing the before and after is how you would determine if the changes were effective.

The discussion at hand is about police ceasing to be a part of the problem. Since the change in policing in Camden resulted in such drastic improvements the police were very obviously a part of the problem.

Camden isn't a high income area. Therefore, they will likely not pay a lot in tax revenue. Low income areas still need services as well, and police are a service. They are not (and should not be) a profit center for any region. They are an expense that pay for themselves by maintaining safe and secure travel and trade.

The way to further lower crime rates is to improve access to education, healthcare, and improve the social safety net. Thus breaking the cycle of poverty and the poor decisions that poverty leads to.

But as long as we continue to treat the poor with disdain, poor areas will have high crime rates. Regardless of the number of police.
 
Hoopguru said:
Camden's Success Was Achieved by De-Unionizing, Not ...Foundation for Economic Educationhttps://fee.org › articles › camden-s-success-was-achie...
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yankeesince59 said:
Thanks, you beat me to it Hoop...and as you probably already know, there are other sources as well. And there are reasons why other cities have not implemented Camden's experiment.

And while some of Camdens crimes have dropped a bit, others have risen.
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But it's not really de-unionizing.

Suppose you were a freshwater underwater basket weaver and your union is the Teamsters. You work for them for 10 years and the company decides to close.

You hear the saltwater underwater basket weavers are hiring but their union is AFL-CIO.

Switching employers that have different unions is not de-unionizing.

In my humble opinion.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
But it's not really de-unionizing.

Suppose you were a freshwater underwater basket weaver and your union is the Teamsters. You work for them for 10 years and the company decides to close.

You hear the saltwater underwater basket weavers are hiring but their union is AFL-CIO.

Switching employers that have different unions is not de-unionizing.

In my humble opinion.
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Tell that to the union members who were not rehired. And I'm pretty sure that the ones who were rehired were no longer members of the same union.
 
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yankeesince59 said:
Camden is not a true model for all cities, for Camden maybe, but Camden was so bad that it probably couldn't get any worse and the drop in most crimes dropped nationwide during covid.

They really have not shown they can do it without help, and in their case, they simply used state aid instead of their own revenue to practically double the size of their police force, making Camden now one of the most "policed" cities in the country in proportion to their size.

Camden basically threw money at the problem...and spending 6 times the revenue that they take in is certainly a negative impact.
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Looks like national crime rates did the opposite of dropping over COVID.
U.S. crime rate & statistics for 2021 was 6.81, a 6.02% increase from 2020.
U.S. crime rate & statistics for 2020 was 6.42, a 28.78% increase from 2019.
U.S. crime rate & statistics for 2019 was 4.99, a 1.14% increase from 2018.
U.S. crime rate & statistics for 2018 was 4.93, a 5.99% decline from 2017.
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Camden has to bum money from the state to continue to excessively hire more cops because no businesses want to go there, and I don't blame them. After 13 years I would think that if things had improved that much, business would start opening there. But the fact is that even after 13 years, Camden is still ranked the 14th most dangerous place to be...not impressive.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
But it's not really de-unionizing.

Suppose you were a freshwater underwater basket weaver and your union is the Teamsters. You work for them for 10 years and the company decides to close.

You hear the saltwater underwater basket weavers are hiring but their union is AFL-CIO.

Switching employers that have different unions is not de-unionizing.

In my humble opinion.
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While initially they were not unionized, in 2013 they voted to unionize and selected the New Jersey Fraternal Order Of Police Union (NJFOP). All of the Camden County officers are covered by a police union and have been for a decade.
 
Unions of all kinds need to be more receptive to working with gov on improving performance with quantifiable results.
My wife's biggest issue over the years with her union was there were those with tenure that were laggards in term of performance as compared to some with less tenure that were outstanding with objective results but no way to be incentivized. Unions certainly can protect worker rights but sometimes they get in the way of improving job performance measured criteria. Just my own take.
 
yankeesince59 said:
Camden has to bum money from the state to continue to excessively hire more cops because no businesses want to go there, and I don't blame them. After 13 years I would think that if things had improved that much, business would start opening there. But the fact is that even after 13 years, Camden is still ranked the 14th most dangerous place to be...not impressive.
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This is not something that can be solved by policing. Camden is the poorest city in the state, and has a poverty rate of 35.5%

Why would businesses go to such a poor area? Poor people don't have a lot of money to spend...
 
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SlyPokerDog said:
But it's not really de-unionizing.

Suppose you were a freshwater underwater basket weaver and your union is the Teamsters. You work for them for 10 years and the company decides to close.

You hear the saltwater underwater basket weavers are hiring but their union is AFL-CIO.

Switching employers that have different unions is not de-unionizing.

In my humble opinion.
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But didn't they contend they would eventually re-unionize. Seems they were un unionized for some time as they got on a better track?
 
As was pointed out earlier after rehiring their police force they were among the most policed areas in the country in relation to their population, and some crimes did drop...for awhile. And that drop was likely due to more cops, not necessarily better cops.

Even if they were once worst, in 2023 ranking the 14th most dangerous place to be in the US is nothing to brag about. Maybe if Camden is continued to be subsidized by the state, they might end up having 4 times the police they had in 2010...yeah, more cops...brilliant !
 
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https://www.camdencounty.com/ccpd-b...end of last,the Camden City Police Department.

Forgive me if this was already posted:

Since the first days of the department’s operation, overall crime and violent crime have both been reduced to 50-year lows. At the end of last year, violent crime had been reduced by 44% and homicides had come down approximately 60% from the previous 10 years. Additionally, the city has seen a 62% decrease in shootings since 2012, the last full year of operation for the Camden City Police Department.
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Are they bad? Yes. Are they significantly better? Also yes.
 
...Still trying to put Camden in a positive light ?........a city using state money instead of their own to hire even more cops...if they keep this up, there will be more cops than citizens.

...even when compared to 2012, Camden is still a shit hole. ..."hey, now we're (Camden) only the 14th most dangerous place to be in the US !"


Still waiting for examples of the plethora of other cities lining up to attempt what Camden attempted to do...10-12 years after the fact.
 
yankeesince59 said:
...Still trying to put Camden in a positive light ?........a city using state money instead of their own to hire even more cops...if they keep this up, there will be more cops than citizens.

...even when compared to 2012, Camden is still a shit hole. ..."hey, now we're (Camden) only the 14th most dangerous place to be in the US !"


Still waiting for examples of the plethora of other cities lining up to attempt what Camden attempted to do...10-12 years after the fact.
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So reducing crime = bad? Cool stance.
 
yankeesince59 said:
One cherry pick deserves another;


https://publicaffairs.northeastern.edu/articles/us-crime-rate-during-pandemic/

https://apnews.com/article/chicago-...rus-outbreak-bbb7adc88d3fa067c5c1b5c72a1a8aa6

https://www.aclu.org/news/smart-justice/decarceration-and-crime-during-covid-19
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Taking some time reading through those links... they say most crime went up over covid as well... except the first few months... a few types of crime were flat or dipped for a couple months with the lockdowns, but that's it. The overall trend was crime going up, all over the US.
 
yankeesince59 said:
...Still trying to put Camden in a positive light ?........a city using state money instead of their own to hire even more cops...if they keep this up, there will be more cops than citizens.

...even when compared to 2012, Camden is still a shit hole. ..."hey, now we're (Camden) only the 14th most dangerous place to be in the US !"


Still waiting for examples of the plethora of other cities lining up to attempt what Camden attempted to do...10-12 years after the fact.
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I'm not finding any legit data that have Camden ranked as anywhere close to the most dangerous...

Most Dangerous Cities in the US - www.populationu.com
Camden not even in the top 75

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia
Camden not listed here in these 100...

I don't believe it... I gotta see this for myself... I'm dubious...
 
Only stats and numbers I post are legit. Anything else is not a legit source!!!!
I know everything and you know nothing!!!!

Sadly…this problem will never get solved….
 
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