Addition by subtraction

[Tince]

I'm unwilling to call Whiteside lazy because I think it's often hard to determine if someone is slow of foot vs not giving effort.

My eyes have told me he's slow of foot, which is why pulling him away from the hoop on a regular basis always seemed like a bad idea. It was interesting to see a clear breakdown of a team who defends PnR coverages with the same strategy, but because their lineup isn't littered with below average defensive players, it works.

Again, I'm not bagging on Whiteside, he is what he is and to expect otherwise would be unfair to him. This video does a great job of breaking down what many people on here have been saying about his inabilities.

 

[wizenheimer]

He's not a winner. I don't like lazy players like that. BFD. I want him off my team. Is that really vitriolic hate?


Stats be damned-- they freaking lie. Here are some unheralded centers I think would make our team better than Whiteside:

- Daniel Theis
- Richaun Holmes
- Gorgui Dieng
- Aron Baynes
- Ivica Zubac
- Derrick Favors
- Poeltl plays fucking HARD. Something Whiteside only does on occasion

LOL...the thing I've noticed is that people become really dismissive of stats when they don't match their bias. IIRC, I've seen you post stats before to buttress your arguments

and please come up with realistic trade ideas for getting any of those C's without giving up assets and without busting next year's cap

 

[Scalma]

Never realized there were so many Whiteside fans here. I think all these opinions are clouded by the fact that he's the only guy we have above 6'9 who isn't in street clothes.

The irony of you saying opinions are clouded is....chefs kiss.

 

[hoopsjock]

Never realized there were so many Whiteside fans here. I think all these opinions are clouded by the fact that he's the only guy we have above 6'9 who isn't in street clothes.

As with everything there are two extreme ends here and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Whiteside isn't a lazy worthless bum and he's also not a top center in the league.

 

[B-Roy]

Never realized there were so many Whiteside fans here. I think all these opinions are clouded by the fact that he's the only guy we have above 6'9 who isn't in street clothes.

I would hardly say that people here are "fans" considering most would be willing to trade him for a semi useful player and an expiring. But that doesn't mean we can't look at what he's doing objectively especially in the context of the fact that he's the only guy on our team who can play center right now. He has flaws as a player, but it doesn't take away from his strengths either.

As for "working hard". I saw Mason Plumlee bust his ass as a starting center for a year and a half, but his effectiveness isn't near the same level as "lazy" Whiteside.

 

[illmatic99]

The irony of you saying opinions are clouded is....chefs kiss.

LOL...the thing I've noticed is that people become really dismissive of stats when they don't match their bias. IIRC, I've seen you post stats before to buttress your arguments

and please come up with realistic trade ideas for getting any of those C's without giving up assets and without busting next year's cap

As with everything there are two extreme ends here and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Whiteside isn't a lazy worthless bum and he's also not a top center in the league.

I would hardly say that people here are "fans" considering most would be willing to trade him for a semi useful player and an expiring. But that doesn't mean we can't look at what he's doing objectively especially in the context of the fact that he's the only guy on our team who can play center right now. He has flaws as a player, but it doesn't take away from his strengths either.

As for "working hard". I saw Mason Plumlee bust his ass as a starting center for a year and a half, but his effectiveness isn't near the same level as "lazy" Whiteside.

Clearly I'm on the other side as you all here. Perhaps my eye tests deceive me, but i can't wait til we rid ourselves of the guy.

Let's just all agree that Nurk's inevitable return will make us a far better team.

 

[B-Roy]

I just don't understand where this is coming from. Everybody here agrees with the video posted. So what?

 

[illmatic99]

I just don't understand where this is coming from. Everybody here agrees with the video posted. So what?

Are we not allowed to express opinions here now?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

This is pretty much a lost season so I would keep Whiteside.

Even in limited practices there are things Whiteside does that would be beneficial for Nurk to play against and learn from.

Nurk is smart and motivated to get better, even half a season with Whiteside would be good for him.

Not seeing a trade this team could make during this season that will get us to the WCFs.

I do see us being able to beat (beat as in physically pound on) the hell out of teams in the playoffs with 2 big dominate big men and 12 hard fouls between the two of them.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Look who's at #14

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Charlotte doesn't dump any long-term salary here, which is the only reason they probably wouldn't do it:

 

[illmatic99]

Charlotte doesn't dump any long-term salary here, which is the only reason they probably wouldn't do it:
View attachment 29650

Switch MKG with Marvin and I'm on board. I think that would make us better to close out the season.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

View attachment 29649
Look who's at #14

Do you think Whiteside has anything to do with the great season Lillard is having?

 

[tester551]

I'm unwilling to call Whiteside lazy because I think it's often hard to determine if someone is slow of foot vs not giving effort.

My eyes have told me he's slow of foot, which is why pulling him away from the hoop on a regular basis always seemed like a bad idea. It was interesting to see a clear breakdown of a team who defends PnR coverages with the same strategy, but because their lineup isn't littered with below average defensive players, it works.

Again, I'm not bagging on Whiteside, he is what he is and to expect otherwise would be unfair to him. This video does a great job of breaking down what many people on here have been saying about his inabilities.

Also, to compare his weaknesses against a DPOY level individual is a bit unfair too.

 

[Scalma]

As far as centers go, Gobert and Nurk hover around the top 5 while Whiteside hovers somewhere around the top 15. He’s been a good band aid who’s had even more responsibility put on his shoulders after the Collins injury and Gasol setback. He doesn’t deserve to be criticized as much as he has by some. Doesn’t mean I’m against trading him though, but that has more to do with the roster/future than him as a player.

 

[illmatic99]

As far as centers go, Gobert and Nurk hover around the top 5 while Whiteside hovers somewhere around the top 15. He’s been a good band aid who’s had even more responsibility put on his shoulders after the Collins injury and Gasol setback. He doesn’t deserve to be criticized as much as he has by some. Doesn’t mean I’m against trading him though, but that has more to do with the roster/future than him as a player.

His stats say he's better than he is, which is the point I've been saying. I don't think I've seen a bigger discrepancy between stats and impact as much for any Blazer before him in recent history (maybe ZBo?)

#1 in blocks per game, #2 in blocks %
#3 in Rebounds per game, 4th in rebound rate
# 10 among all players in PER, #3 among centers
#3 in estimated wins added among centers
# 17 in defensive BPM overall
etc, etc

We need to have a better record if all this is real. We also wouldn't be hellbent on trading him in every cooked up idea.

 

[Scalma]

His stats say he's better than he is, which is the point I've been saying. I don't think I've seen a bigger discrepancy between stats and impact as much for any Blazer before him in recent history (maybe ZBo?)

#1 in blocks per game, #2 in blocks %
#3 in Rebounds per game, 4th in rebound rate
# 10 among all players in PER, #3 among centers
#3 in estimated wins added among centers
# 17 in defensive BPM

We need to have a better record if all this is real.

Yes, it’s all fake, and Hassan Whiteside is why Portland is seven games below .500.

 

[illmatic99]

Yes, it’s all fake, and Hassan Whiteside is why Portland is seven games below .500.

Certainly not helping as much as stats indicate.​

 

[Scalma]

Portland is 0-4 in games without Whiteside this season. But yeah, definitely no agenda here. He’s the issue. Addition by subtraction.

 

[wizenheimer]

View attachment 29649
Look who's at #14

that's so misleading though, comparing Whiteside and Meyers on defense thru just DRPM. Meyers plays a limited supporting role on a starting unit that has Butler and Abedayo, two players that are much better at defense than anybody Whiteside plays with. Furthermore, look at RPM wins where Whiteside has 1.76 vs Meyers at 0.70 and Whiteside plays for a team that only has 20 wins while Meyers plays for a team with 32 wins. That will skew the numbers toward Meyers, yet Hassan has 2 1/2 times more RPM wins (and a 3.7 times better RPM)

instead of using one single debatable stat in an arguably misleading fashion, how using about many to get a better, more complete picture of actual impact:

PER: Meyers 11.2....Whiteside 24.7
TS: Meyers .644....Whiteside .631
FT rate: Meyers .117....Whiteside .339
off reb rate: Meyers 3.3%....Whiteside 13.8%
def reb rate: Meyers 22.8%....Whiteside 33.0%
reb rate: Meyers 13.6%....Whiteside 23.5%
block rate: Meyers 1.5%....Whiteside 8.3%
winshares/48: Meyers .112....Whiteside .201 (it's significant that Whiteside has this big an advantage being on a team with 12 less wins)
def box plus/minus: Meyers 0.4....Whiteside 3.0
box plus/minus: Meyers -0.6....Whiteside +2.8
value over replacement: Meyers 0.3....Whiteside 1.6
wins over replacement: Meyers 0.81....Whiteside 4.32

slam dunk for Whiteside.

* going back to that DRPM comparison, there's are some conflictin stats that kind of put the 'lie' to that DRPM comparison. Whiteside has a defensive box plus/minus 7.5 times better than Meyers. Also, Meyers has a defensive rating 0.5 points worse than his team's rating. Meanwhile, Whiteside's defensive rating is a pretty amazing 8.6 points better than his team's rating

* Meyers is not 1st or 2nd on his team in any major advanced stat (unless it's TS% by eliminating Silva). Meanwhile, Whiteside is 1st or 2nd on his team in: PER, TS%, FT rate, all three rebounding categories, block rate, all three winshare categories, winshares/48, defensive box plus & box plus/minus, value over replacement and value over replacement wins.

replace Whiteside with Meyers with everything else being the same and Portland would probably have 10 wins, at best, instead of 20

 

[Scalma]

that's so misleading though, comparing Whiteside and Meyers on defense thru just DRPM. Meyers plays a limited supporting role on a starting unit that has Butler and Abedayo, two players that are much better at defense than anybody Whiteside plays with. Furthermore, look at RPM wins where Whiteside has 1.76 vs Meyers at 0.70 and Whiteside plays for a team that only has 20 wins while Meyers plays for a team with 32 wins. That will skew the numbers toward Meyers, yet Hassan has 2 1/2 times more RPM wins (and a 3.7 times better RPM)

instead of using one single debatable stat in an arguably misleading fashion, how using about many to get a better, more complete picture of actual impact:

PER: Meyers 11.2....Whiteside 24.7
TS: Meyers .644....Whiteside .631
FT rate: Meyers .117....Whiteside .339
off reb rate: Meyers 3.3%....Whiteside 13.8%
def reb rate: Meyers 22.8%....Whiteside 33.0%
reb rate: Meyers 13.6%....Whiteside 23.5%
block rate: Meyers 1.5%....Whiteside 8.3%
winshares/48: Meyers .112....Whiteside .201 (it's significant that Whiteside has this big an advantage being on a team with 12 less wins)
def box plus/minus: Meyers 0.4....Whiteside 3.0
box plus/minus: Meyers -0.6....Whiteside +2.8
value over replacement: Meyers 0.3....Whiteside 1.6
wins over replacement: Meyers 0.81....Whiteside 4.32

slam dunk for Whiteside.

* going back to that DRPM comparison, there's are some conflictin stats that kind of put the 'lie' to that DRPM comparison. Whiteside has a defensive box plus/minus 7.5 times better than Meyers. Also, Meyers has a defensive rating 0.5 points worse than his team's rating. Meanwhile, Whiteside's defensive rating is a pretty amazing 8.6 points better than his team's rating

* Meyers is not 1st or 2nd on his team in any major advanced stat (unless it's TS% by eliminating Silva). Meanwhile, Whiteside is 1st or 2nd on his team in: PER, TS%, FT rate, all three rebounding categories, block rate, all three winshare categories, winshares/48, defensive box plus & box plus/minus, value over replacement and value over replacement wins.

replace Whiteside with Meyers with everything else being the same and Portland would probably have 10 wins, at best, instead of 20

He’s not reading any of this.

 

[illmatic99]

Portland is 0-4 in games without Whiteside this season. But yeah, definitely no agenda here. He’s the issue. Addition by subtraction.

It's not as ridiculous an opinion as you're suggesting. Just wait til we trade him and see. Think I've watched enough basketball to see how some of these guys work together as a whole on a team to look past the stats.

 

[Scalma]

It's not as ridiculous an opinion as you're suggesting. Just wait til we trade him and see. Think I've watched enough basketball to see how some of these guys work together as a whole on a team to look past the stats.

Yeah, you look past the stats when it doesn’t fit the narrative you’ve been so desperate to confirm literally since day one. You have no problem throwing out stats elsewhere. Funny how that works.

 

[illmatic99]

Yeah, you look past the stats when it doesn’t fit the narrative you’ve been so desperate to confirm literally since day one. You have no problem throwing out stats elsewhere. Funny how that works.

This isn't totally binary. This is perfect example where stats lie-- there are obviously other situations when they reveal more than does an eye test. When you aggregate all of Hassan's numbers, he should be a definitive all star and an undisputed top 5 C in the game.

Do you think he is?

Also, here's Dame's agent as you have pointed out earlier:



I know I'm not alone in thinking this. Here's Dame:

https://www.blazersedge.com/2019/11...rd-hassan-whiteside-relationship-impact-stats

“He’s been good. And that’s the thing — he’s a really good dude, a good teammate, he don’t cause trouble,” Lillard said. “It’s literally about him understanding ‘What am I doing that’s really impacting winning?’ That’s what it is. His points and rebounds are big, but just continue to improve. We all can do stuff better, and for him right now, you just can’t throw too much at him all at once.”

 

[Scalma]

This isn't totally binary. This is perfect example where stats lie. When you aggregate all of Hassan's numbers, he should be a definitive all star and an undisputed top 5 C in the game.

Do you think he is?

But they don’t really say that. For example, his RPM ranks him outside the top ten, but inside the top 20. I’d agree with that.

 

[illmatic99]

But they don’t really say that. For example, his RPM ranks him outside the top ten, but inside the top 20. I’d agree with that.

That stat is literally the ONLY one where he ranks out of the top 10 among Centers. Maybe I need to pay more attention to this one.

 

[wizenheimer]

This isn't totally binary. This is perfect example where stats lie-- there are obviously other situations when they reveal more than does an eye test. When you aggregate all of Hassan's numbers, he should be a definitive all star and an undisputed top 5 C in the game.

Do you think he is?

when was the last time Portland had an all-star C? IIRC it was nearly 30 years ago with Duckworth. I think maybe twice in over 40 years, since Walton, has Portland had an all-star C. Does that mean that 40 years of Blazer C's have had hollow stats?

the moving goalposts you're using aren't very logical

for instance: who in this thread is claiming Whiteside is a top-5, all-star level C?

 

[Scalma]

Oh and let’s be real, Lillard is an awful lob passer, that’s not all on whiteside. Of course his personal manager won’t mention it. And that shit was written in November, they’ve gotten a lot better since.

 

[illmatic99]

when was the last time Portland had an all-star C? IIRC it was nearly 30 years ago with Duckworth. I think maybe twice in over 40 years, since Walton, has Portland had an all-star C. Does that mean that 40 years of Blazer C's have had hollow stats?

the moving goalposts you're using aren't very logical

This is really a strawman. Nurk has inferior stats to Whiteside across the board. But we can almost unanimously agree that he is a better player, no? What goal posts are moving?

One player's stats impact winning, the other's don't.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

As with everything there are two extreme ends here and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Whiteside isn't a lazy worthless bum and he's also not a top center in the league.

This

I just don't understand where this is coming from. Everybody here agrees with the video posted. So what?

This

As far as centers go, Gobert and Nurk hover around the top 5 while Whiteside hovers somewhere around the top 15. He’s been a good band aid who’s had even more responsibility put on his shoulders after the Collins injury and Gasol setback. He doesn’t deserve to be criticized as much as he has by some. Doesn’t mean I’m against trading him though, but that has more to do with the roster/future than him as a player.

And this