Politics Afghanistan Withdrawal

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

Can’t we just open a “Afghanistan Withdrawal” thread so we can all decide it was way past time and that it doesn’t matter one whit in the greater scheme of things, end of discussion? Then we can lock that thread and move on to stuff that is actually more important? I mean, when the “other guy” who set the whole withdrawal clusterfuck in motion to begin with starts calls it a travesty it’s clear that the Afghanistan mess has become nothing more than a endless (and clueless) circular firing squad. Haven’t we heard enough? We never should have been there, so why the tears and recriminations over leaving? We never gave it our best shot. We never tried to actually win. The Afghanis refused to step up in a way that made an actual difference. Time to move on. People can trash Biden all they want, but the bottom line truth is that a Democrat ended a Republican war. That’s a hard truth for the Republicans to swallow. And at least Biden didn’t invite the Taliban for brunch in our back yard…….or twist Pakistan’s arm to release the next president (a hardcore terrorist) of Afghanistan. Those two examples set the bar for a completely new level of stupidity………God bless Biden for having a set of balls to do the right thing.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Can’t we just open a “Afghanistan Withdrawal” thread

Done!

 

[Shaboid]

The entire withdrawal was bungled. Who's feet that lays at is not what I've been thinking about the past few days. My father did multiple tours over there, along with two of my brothers and a few cousins. Having talked to them, they are not saying "Biden screwed us!" or "this is Trump's fault!". They are telling other stories of soldiers that were injured or killed. Concern for the Afghani soldiers (by name) that they helped trained that have been reported dead/missing/their families kidnapped. Thoughts about the children that have only lived in an war torn country that has now been thrown back into a state that their parents have warned them of. I'm personally struggling with putting it all in perspective. There are so many things to consider.

Now don't get me wrong, we needed to be out of Afghanistan. I just don't think there is a person in here that would say that how we did it was responsible, humane, or successful.

As far as telling me or anyone else to just "move on", It was a war, people died.

 

[riverman]

As far as telling me or anyone else to just "move on", yeah, It was a war, people died.

there's nothing wrong with telling people to move on about this issue...we're not at war with Afghanistan...and personal insults aren't helping your case...people die in Afghanistan...they die all over the planet...we don't need to be there..I was thrilled to leave Viet Nam and I'm sure our troops will feel the same about coming home..we never declared war in Viet Nam either and both conflicts lasted about the same length of time...much more loss of life for our soldiers in Viet Nam though. I'm sure you can help the cause over there beyond our military occupation...send them some money or write your representatives and protest if you like but UCD doesn't need to go fuck himself over his opinion...that country has been in a civil war for a long, long time before we showed up..the Russians bailed as well...

 

[Shaboid]

there's nothing wrong with telling people to move on about this issue...we're not at war with Afghanistan...and personal insults aren't helping your case...people die in Afghanistan...they die all over the planet...we don't need to be there..I was thrilled to leave Viet Nam and I'm sure our troops will feel the same about coming home..we never declared war in Viet Nam either and both conflicts lasted about the same length of time...much more loss of life for our soldiers in Viet Nam though. I'm sure you can help the cause over there beyond our military occupation...send them some money or write your representatives and protest if you like but UCD doesn't need to go fuck himself over his opinion...

And I don't need to be told to just "move on". Not a personal insult. I have respect for UCD, but come on. Every one deals with stuff in their own way. Saying someone should just move on about something like that is just as disrespectful.

 

[riverman]

And I don't need to be told to just "move on". Not a personal insult. I have respect for UCD, but come on. Every one deals with stuff in their own way. Saying someone should just move on about something like that is just as disrespectful.

He wasn't quoting you...it was an insult...fine to deal with stuff your own way...post an opinon...disagree, but an insult is not any of that...that was the disrespectful post...this place has been much better recently, I hope it stays that way myself

 

[tester551]

The entire withdrawal was bungled. Who's feet that lays at is not what I've been thinking about the past few days. My father did multiple tours over there, along with two of my brothers and a few cousins. Having talked to them, they are not saying "Biden screwed us!" or "this is Trump's fault!". They are telling other stories of soldiers that were injured or killed. Concern for the Afghani soldiers (by name) that they helped trained that have been reported dead/missing/their families kidnapped. Thoughts about the children that have only lived in an war torn country that has now been thrown back into a state that their parents have warned them of. I'm personally struggling with putting it all in perspective. There are so many things to consider.

Now don't get me wrong, we needed to be out of Afghanistan. I just don't think there is a person in here that would say that how we did it was responsible, humane, or successful.

As far as telling me or anyone else to just "move on", yeah, gfy. It was a war, people died.

Correct.

 

[Shaboid]

He wasn't quoting you...it was an insult...fine to deal with stuff your own way...post an opinon...disagree, but an insult is not any of that...that was the disrespectful post

He was saying generally people need to move on and it was posted as the OP to this thread. That is what I responded to. But whatever. If the mods think it was a personal insult (it wasn't) they can remove it. Wasn't trying to come across as disrespectful, I say that to people all the time. Just imagine it in Bill Burr's voice, that should help.

That was my opinion.

 

[riverman]

The Taliban is the bad guy here...not the US or UN troops that tried to prop up a weak corrupt govt....we're not in control of anything in Afghanistan but the safety of our own people...those who are born there need to fix their country from within..I'd say our sacrifice for 20 years and a trillion bucks was pretty patient...we didn't just show up and leave when a soldier died..we stayed two decades

 

[ABM]

Afghanistan is sooo yesterday....

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-vowed-us-respond-chinese-171900595.html

Biden vowed US would ‘respond’ to Chinese invasion of Taiwan after Afghanistan debacle

President Joe Biden vowed that the United States would “respond” to any possible Chinese invasion of Taiwan, pushing back on criticism from Chinese state-run media that the U.S. debacle and Taliban takeover in Afghanistan should make the island of Taiwan question whether the U.S. would protect it or abandon it.

Biden made the remarks during an interview with George Stephanopoulos of ABC News, with Biden comparing the U.S. commitment to Taiwan to the commitment the U.S. has made to its NATO allies. The U.S. Embassy in Kabul had to be abandoned over the weekend, and Hamid Karzai International Airport erupted into chaos as crowds of Afghans attempted to flee when the Taliban marched into Kabul on Sunday, with thousands of Americans and Afghan allies stuck in the country.

Stephanopoulos said China was already telling Taiwan, “See? You can't count on the Americans.” Biden pushed back.

“Why wouldn't China say that?” Biden responded. “Look, George, the idea that we — there's a fundamental difference between Taiwan, South Korea, NATO. We are in a situation where they are in — entities we've made agreements with based on not a civil war they're having on that island or in South Korea, but on an agreement where they have a unity government that, in fact, is trying to keep bad guys from doin' bad things to them.”

Biden argued: “We have made — kept every commitment. We made a sacred commitment to Article V that if, in fact, anyone were to invade or take action against our NATO allies, we would respond. Same with Japan, same with South Korea, same with Taiwan. It's not even comparable to talk about that. … It's not comparable.”

 

[Road Ratt]

The U.S. invaded a foreign country, on false pretenses. Of course we are the bad guys here.

 

[riverman]

The U.S. invaded a foreign country, on false pretenses. Of course we are the bad guys here.

That's not the truth...we were invited to advise and train the govt troops there by the elected president of the country and had declared war on terror cells all over the globe after 9/11......we didn't invade Afghanistan..we had a welcome mat and showed up with a checkbook and a bunch of weapons and ammo. Invading a country is a different scenario entirely..we aren't invading S Korea either but we're still there. The Taliban was friendly with our enemies in the region...that is why we sent troops...not so we could conquer a sovereign nation for our own acquisition...it was a mistake to dig in there and a waste of energy, lives and money...just like Viet Nam..I'm glad it's over myself...Now Iraq we DID invade even going so far as to topple the leadership there

 

[ABM]

The U.S. invaded a foreign country, on false pretenses. Of course we are the bad guys here.

WMD EXIST!!

 

[crandc]

Taliban in December 2001 offered to negotiate surrender agreement. Bush Administration refused, demanding unconditional surrender. Twenty years later Trump signed what was in effect unconditional surrender, but it wasn't Taliban surrendering.

Now the right is screaming about Afghani refugees. Scary brown people.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Mexico opens its doors to refugee applications for Afghan citizens
AUGUST 19, 2021 |
AROUND MEXICO


Mexico City, Mexico — On Wednesday, the government of Mexico announced that it has begun to process the first refugee applications of Afghan citizens after the Taliban take-over in the country.

“I inform you that with the active participation of Guillermo Puente Ordorica, Mexican ambassador to Iran, we have begun processing the first refugee applications of Afghan citizens, especially women and girls who have requested it,” informed the Mexican chancellor, Marcelo Ebrard.

The Ministry of Foreign Relations (SRE) indicated that since they are people considered to be in danger, the government was unable to provide details of the number of applications in process.

https://www.riviera-maya-news.com/m...ee-applications-for-afghan-citizens/2021.html

 

[Phatguysrule]

There was no graceful exit possible the way we did they whole thing. We fucked up when we went in there and once we did go in we should have planned on nation building long term like we did with Japan.

That was the only way to exit gracefully.

How we did it though, it was always going to end this way.

 

[crandc]

Sean Hannity, commenting that Americans stuck in Afghanistan probably aren't sleeping well, suggested My Pillow.

You can't make this shit up.

 

[Road Ratt]

That's not the truth...we were invited to advise and train the govt troops there by the elected president of the country and had declared war on terror cells all over the globe after 9/11......we didn't invade Afghanistan..we had a welcome mat and showed up with a checkbook and a bunch of weapons and ammo.

After 9/11, the U.S. was going into Afghanistan with or without an "invite". Any "invite" was surely under great pressure from the U.S., just to get our way.

9/11 was just another excuse for the U.S. to do as it pleased on foreign soil. We spent 20 years, and plenty of lives, in Afghanistan under a lie.

By the way: It's that lie, that makes the whole war on terror, America's fault, and failure.

 

[riverman]

After 9/11, the U.S. was going into Afghanistan with or without an "invite". Any "invite" was surely under great pressure from the U.S., just to get our way.

9/11 was just another excuse for the U.S. to do as it pleased on foreign soil. We spent 20 years, and plenty of lives, in Afghanistan under a lie.

By the way: It's that lie, that makes the whole war on terror, America's fault, and failure.

I agree..my disagreement was in the use of we invaded their country which we didn't...we lied, propped up our desired figure head...had a base near Pakistan and Iran ..there were a lot of reasons we were there veiled in the terrorist hunt movement but I consider invading a country a different scenario...we had no business sending troops in...we got Bin Laden with a small group of Seals ...that was probably not sanctioned by Pakistani generals at all either.

 

[Hoopguru]

Glad we have pulled out put I don't like that there are so many Americans & Afgan’s that are trapped and were not not able to be evacuated.
Imo, how can you expect a central civilized government to emerge in an area with so many tribal war loads that hate each other, for centuries and use Sharia law as a way to rule and abuse women and gjrls.

 

[riverman]

Glad we have pulled out put I don't like that there are so many Americans & Afgan’s that are trapped and were not not able to be evacuated.
Imo, how can you expect a central civilized government to emerge in an area with so many tribal war loads that hate each other, for centuries and use Sharia law as a way to rule and abuse women and gjrls.

There's nothing good about the female abuse in these places...I don't agree with their laws or religion on any level but we're dealing with a medieval country...change has to come from within..cultural revolution..we're not going to be that example for them ever..what is next...we go to war with every African and middle eastern country that has a paternal unforgiving religious government? Is China on that list and North Korea and Russia? Sanctions are what we have to use...that is more effective than ground troops and bombs...we just had an invasion on our own Capitol Hill govt....this is a job for the United Nations peace keeping forces and the League of Arab Nations to address...it's not even in our neck of the woods. We can support a world coalition against abuses of human rights but we don't get to park in foreign countries for 20 years that don't want us

 

[Road Ratt]

I agree..my disagreement was in the use of we invaded their country which we didn't...

Yes, understandable. For me, when it comes to the U.S., invaded and invited are usually interchangeable.

 

[Chris Craig]

Hindsight is 20/20. It would have been better to keep troops there until all other US citizens and afghans who wanted out, knowing the US was leaving, could do so safely.

The US spent decades training afghan forces to withstand and fight back against the Taliban to keep their country from falling into the groups hands. The afghan military flopped and ran as soon as they heard the Taliban were coming. How many more decades should the US have spent there training a military that proved so uncapable after decades of training already?

It's not our country. We lost so many lives their for nothing. The US should have withdrawn after we took out Bin Laden.

How many more presidents should this have been passed on to? How many more American lives should this unwinnable war take?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

The biggest mistake we made in Afghanistan and Iraq is we gave them democracy.

You can't give democracy, actually we should have told them no you can't be one.

They needed to demand it, fight for it, value it.

Especially in Afghanistan, a representative government didn't mean anything to them.

Easy come, easy go, and they just let it go.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

But isn't f'ing weird that one of the first nation-building things we did in Iraq and Afghanistan is give them universal health care?

 

[Phatguysrule]

After 9/11, the U.S. was going into Afghanistan with or without an "invite". Any "invite" was surely under great pressure from the U.S., just to get our way.

9/11 was just another excuse for the U.S. to do as it pleased on foreign soil. We spent 20 years, and plenty of lives, in Afghanistan under a lie.

By the way: It's that lie, that makes the whole war on terror, America's fault, and failure.

It's exactly what Bin Laden wanted. He couldn't have asked for a better outcome than we've given him.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Hindsight is 20/20. It would have been better to keep troops there until all other US citizens and afghans who wanted out, knowing the US was leaving, could do so safely.

The US spent decades training afghan forces to withstand and fight back against the Taliban to keep their country from falling into the groups hands. The afghan military flopped and ran as soon as they heard the Taliban were coming. How many more decades should the US have spent there training a military that proved so uncapable after decades of training already?

It's not our country. We lost so many lives their for nothing. The US should have withdrawn after we took out Bin Laden.

How many more presidents should this have been passed on to? How many more American lives should this unwinnable war take?

You can't just train military. You have to fund schools and make sure they are safe. You have to be the good guy for a whole generation of children and teach them to love democracy and freedom of choice.

If we weren't going to do that we should have never gone in. We should have never gone in with troops anyway, but if you're going to you have to have a long term plan.

We didn't. We were just evil mercenaries, in it for the money.

 

[Voodoo]

Someone really should have informed Dubya of the two classic blunders back in ‘01.

 

[crandc]

The biggest mistake we made in Afghanistan and Iraq is we gave them democracy.

You can't give democracy, actually we should have told them no you can't be one.

They needed to demand it, fight for it, value it.

Especially in Afghanistan, a representative government didn't mean anything to them.

Easy come, easy go, and they just let it go.

Afghanistan had democracy in the 70s. But it never really extended past urban areas.

 

[Hoopguru]

Hindsight is 20/20. It would have been better to keep troops there until all other US citizens and afghans who wanted out, knowing the US was leaving, could do so safely.

The US spent decades training afghan forces to withstand and fight back against the Taliban to keep their country from falling into the groups hands. The afghan military flopped and ran as soon as they heard the Taliban were coming. How many more decades should the US have spent there training a military that proved so uncapable after decades of training already?

It's not our country. We lost so many lives their for nothing. The US should have withdrawn after we took out Bin Laden.

How many more presidents should this have been passed on to? How many more American lives should this unwinnable war take?

No reason whatsoever they couldnt have gone about it differently, as you say so they could get out. Why would we take our troops from the Bagram airbase before American citizens and Afga refugees could leave? That alone sent a meaasge to the Taliban that we were hi tailing it out of there quickly. This seem a lot like the Bay of Pigs screw up to me. What a mess.