Politics Afghanistan Withdrawal (1 Viewer)

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The speed with which the Taliban moved on Kabul was completely miscalculated but as to moving troops...we've closed military bases all over the place and moved soldiers without moving the journalist, expats or business people from those countries...our expats were not looked at as refugees from the Taliban...a journalist should be moved by their employer...we left the Phillipines moving our army and navy without moving the other americans living there...same in Naha Okinawa....etc...it's not ideal but if China had invaded Taiwan while I was there, the trade center would have told us we should consider moving but in the end it would be my choice..not a directive by the US military or the American president...I remember when Ross Perot hired a private team to go in and get his employees out of Iran when the Shah was ousted....paid for it out of company profits and used his own helicopters. There was no way to leave that rock pile without collateral damage to our friends who couldn't leave....tragic, but it was a band aid that needed to be ripped off
 
riverman said:
The speed with which the Taliban moved on Kabul was completely miscalculated but as to moving troops...we've closed military bases all over the place and moved soldiers without moving the journalist, expats or business people from those countries...our expats were not looked at as refugees from the Taliban...a journalist should be moved by their employer...we left the Phillipines moving our army and navy without moving the other americans living there...same in Naha Okinawa....etc...it's not ideal but if China had invaded Taiwan while I was there, the trade center would have told us we should consider moving but in the end it would be my choice..not a directive by the US military or the American president...I remember when Ross Perot hired a private team to go in and get his employees out of Iran when the Shah was ousted....paid for it out of company profits and used his own helicopters. There was no way to leave that rock pile without collateral damage to our friends who couldn't leave....tragic, but it was a band aid that needed to be ripped off
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Biden's secretary of defense and generals should have taken Trumps release of 5000 of the top Taliban more seriously. It allowed the Taliban to assemble a lot quicker then they would have. There would have been more time before shit hit the fan had they not been released till after we left if at all.
 
Chris Craig said:
Biden's secretary of defense and generals should have taken Trumps release of 5000 of the top Taliban more seriously. It allowed the Taliban to assemble a lot quicker then they would have. There would have been more time before shit hit the fan had they not been released till after we left if at all.
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I have no doubt that we could've left earlier...like many years earlier...still the President of Afghanistan, his general and well trained and armed to the teeth national military are the ones who didn't do what they were well paid to do, protect democracy and human rights...we are clearly done doing it for them...I blame their leaders and generals before I blame our leaders and generals for not putting up a respectable resistance even though they had the tools to do that...this is a failed democracy in a country that has historically been controlled by warlords and fundamentalist Islamic Mullahs
 
Hoopguru said:
Its still hard for me to believe you pull out troops before all Americans and refugee's have an opportunity to leave?
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Americans were warned to leave Afghanistan back in May.

But then, Americans were warned to get the vaccine back in May also.

Some people don't like being 'told what to do'.

barfo
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
The retribution against people that worked with the U.S. is going to be brutal. Get them and their family the fuck out of there quick.
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The Taliban has recently said there'd be no retribution for Afghan citizens or foreign residents...they also said the airports are open and travel is not restricted...people can leave if they want to..that's my understanding so far. I'm sure there are looters and bullies along the way..that usually follows a coup..the UN peace keeping forces are supposed to step into these situations...not the US military...Mexico has offered total asylum to any who want to leave the country ...there are options available ..To me it's now up to the UN and the League of Arab Nations to sort this out and maintain a peaceful transition...our 20 year band aid is gone
 
barfo said:
Americans were warned to leave Afghanistan back in May.

But then, Americans were warned to get the vaccine back in May also.

Some people don't like being 'told what to do'.

barfo
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I know May 1st was a Trump deadline and Joe extended it to end August. I get what you are saying about them being warned though. I guess when their Army surrendered, which I kind of view as a mis calculation from our Military leaders and we were already drawn down that embolden the Taliban.
 
Lanny said:
They're wrong. They overlook the fact that corruption in the government was so rampant that the war against the Taliban could never be won. The corruption had to be corrected before any lasting progress could be made and I'm not sure that was even possible.
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The only way it could happen would have been to stay a long time (20yrs is about halfway there) and educate the upcoming generations on democracy and how to get corruption out, while supporting the most moral strong leaders and ONLY attacking or killing violent extremists and those advocating for violent extremism.

Tough to do with a straight face while we had Trump in office over here...
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
I don't believe a shit the Taliban say. Retribution against Afghans that worked with the U.S. has already begun. A translator that was working with the U.S. was shot to death. Another three reportedly killed by the Taliban due to suspicion of still working with the U.S. When it's all said and done, the Taliban will make the Viet Cong look like perfect gentlemen in dealing with their defeated enemies.
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Then that's a crime within their own nation...they need to address it from within. I don't like anything about the Taliban at all but they are the locals...we're not. People is S Vietnam were also bullied for working with the US army after we left...that's the collateral damage I posted about earlier...it's going to happen. Afghanistan has it's own govt and criminal justice system...nobody here is going to like how it works at all....probably similar to Russian justice. These warlords just like the ones in Myanmar and Somalia are not looking for allegiances with democratic nations..never have been..
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
"Bullied"? Really? That's an understatement. My father in-law and his brothers were in the S. VN army. He, his wife, and children luckily escaped to America in '75. Both his brothers died in VN (one died in prison). The VC brutally suppressed the hell out of the Vietnamese that had any affiliation with the U.S. Children of those in the S. VN's army were denied of schooling and any decent job opportunity. Hell, me being the son of an American GI, my life would've been hell had I not left.

The Afghans that worked with the U.S. but unlucky enough to not be able to get out of the country will be living in a nightmare. I tend to think that if you make a mess you should fucking clean it up. The U.S. fucked the S. Vietnamese, and now they're doing it again with the Afghans. Get them the fuck out of that hellhole!
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What makes you think we are not getting people out? and this is not us battling the Taliban to the airport...we declared we're leaving and they moved in...I understand your rage my friend but this is not like S Vietnam at all...and my whole point was that both transitions had bullies killing, raping and looting their way to cabinet positions...that doesn' make it our armies fault by any stretch....S Vietnam also had a national army..they just lost like we did my friend..we didn't lose Afghanistan ..we handed it over..we did just send 7k exit escort troops over there
 
Tyrant of Ants said:
No, I just think it's going to go to shit soon for them. I hope you're right and we get everyone of them the fuck out.
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I think this whole thing mirrors the Iranian revolution that ousted the Shah...and it sucks for Afghanis who cherish modern democracy because they are going back to the tribal system they have ingrained in their history..Shoutout to Mexico for offering asylum to Afghanis....now they can also offer asylum to Central Americans while they're at it
 
Hoopguru said:
Im afraid we end up sending more troops.
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only UN coalition troops ..no US military engagement other than UN troops. that's the way the world is supposed to deal with crisis. Biden won't escalate our engagement there now...he's already closed that door. If the Taliban commits atrocities it should be held accountable..just like the crimes in the Balkan wars...try them in the Hague...at any point..We need to stay the course of getting the fuck out of there and staying out of there...sanctions are a better weapon than ground troops
 
Hoopguru said:
Its still hard for me to believe you pull out troops before all Americans and refugee's have an opportunity to leave?
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The Americans have been warned to leave for months. What can you do with people who ignore the warning long term?
 
Our Republican "Bush" led governments executed the plans to waste people, waste billions of dollars, waste billions in arms supplies and influence the Afghanistan and Iraqi governments with the false narrative of widespread WMD and global terrorism. Clinton's administration had a surplus of 5 trillion dollars and the Bushes wasted it. Dick Cheney was the head honcho that set this up and he fades into golden retirement while young soldiers lost limbs and comrades. The American, Iraqi and Afghan people that served including their families are the ones that really suffered both physically and mentally. I am glad President Biden pulled the "plug". The evacuation should have been organized and effective but the Afghan government leaders hid their fortunes, sought their own way out and left their citizens exposed.
 
Lanny said:
The Americans have been warned to leave for months. What can you do with people who ignore the warning long term?
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I understand, and agree, but I dont't recall hearing of any evacuation flights till that one day almost a couple weeks past. Seems it wasn't till the city fell.
 
Afghan Journalist Who Fled Kabul: Women Are “Hopeless” After U.S. War Ends With Taliban Takeover.

 
Hoopguru said:
I understand, and agree, but I dont't recall hearing of any evacuation flights till that one day almost a couple weeks past. Seems it wasn't till the city fell.
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There were flights for those who could afford it and those who couldn't afford it were told there would be no charge. Flights went on at that time.
 
Hoopguru said:
I understand, and agree, but I dont't recall hearing of any evacuation flights till that one day almost a couple weeks past. Seems it wasn't till the city fell.
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Right, just as there are no evacuation flights now from Portland, prior to the Proud Boys takeover of city government in 2022. But there are lots of flights out of PDX today if anyone wants one.

barfo
 
barfo said:
Right, just as there are no evacuation flights now from Portland, prior to the Proud Boys takeover of city government in 2022. But there are lots of flights out of PDX today if anyone wants one.

barfo
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I get my info from CNN & MSNBC and I have yet to hear anyone interviewed that said, oh yeah there was plenty of time and free flights with the Military, to get everyone out, staring months ago, its only those that waited to the last minute that are in a bind. Plus we were under the impression Taliban was not near taking over the city till we gone.
 
Lanny said:
There were flights for those who could afford it and those who couldn't afford it were told there would be no charge. Flights went on at that time.
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Show me where you read that or heard that. Ive been watching CNN & MSNBC and havent herd that. Maybe I missed it?
 
Hoopguru said:
I get my info from CNN & MSNBC and I have yet to hear anyone interviewed that said, oh yeah there was plenty of time and free flights with the Military, to get everyone out, staring months ago, its only those that waited to the last minute that are in a bind. Plus we were under the impression Taliban was not near taking over the city till we gone.
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The point is you didn't need an 'evacuation flight'. You just needed to book a normal airline ticket and leave. There was plenty of time to do that if you had any sense.

Put it this way: if you were in Afghanistan, and you knew that the US was going to withdraw its forces, would you wait around until after they'd actually withdrawn to get out of Dodge?

barfo
 
barfo said:
The point is you didn't need an 'evacuation flight'. You just needed to book a normal airline ticket and leave. There was plenty of time to do that if you had any sense.

Put it this way: if you were in Afghanistan, and you knew that the US was going to withdraw its forces, would you wait around until after they'd actually withdrawn to get out of Dodge?

barfo
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I get that, and yeah I would have got out of there. Thats pretty basic. So, sounds like you everything regarding evacs went as planned or couldn't have been improved to avoid such a mess?
 
Afghanistan is land locked....you don't need an airport to leave...you can drive out of the country or even walk out...the airports didn't close down when the Taliban showed up...Afghani people that stay should work on reform from within...they need a civil rights movement of Afghanis...not European and American soldiers
 
Hoopguru said:
I get that, and yeah I would have got out of there. Thats pretty basic. So, sounds like you everything regarding evacs went as planned or couldn't have been improved to avoid such a mess?
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I think that for American citizens, things so far have gone about as well as could be expected. Nobody is dead that we know of, people are getting out.

For Afghanis, I think there is a lot that could have gone better, largely on the paperwork side. Getting their visas processed sooner would have been a huge help. And there's a lot bigger chance that more of them will get killed before they get evacuated.

barfo
 
stampedehero said:
Get the real truth from a US Marine who served in Afghanistan. Politicians are not credible. They spent 2 Trillion dollars, that we know of. The guys in the trenches should be your first belief. Please read his account.
I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences (yahoo.com)
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Yep. I get going in with a tactical strike once we were sure we would get Bin Laden. Other than that it was all war mongering and will be remembered like we were Russia.
 
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