All In For Ben Simmons

[ant]

I was talking about back surgery bro, I was wrong about him not having surgery until after his 5 season in the NBA? 4 when he played and 1 where he sat out the whole season?

He didn't have any back issues prior to get drafted which was the main point here as someone mentioned above.

His career derailed by injury? You mean, the same injury he caused by not staying in basketball shape during his time he was sitting out and not playing for the Sixers? Him sitting out a whole season was a dumb move, got shit on my many peers in the NBA and quite frankly is a bitch move and shows he isn't mentally strong. And he got paid for that whole season, weak move on his part. Seems like he should be the reason for his own injures.

And he was the same player 4 years into his career than after his rookie season, that's improvement to you? For a #1 pick in the draft? lol

You’re glossing over whatever you want trying to make your point. Ben was already missing games with back issues in early 2020. Sorry that doesn’t fit your narrative about his sit-out season. And lol about him not getting better. He was an all star wasn’t he? He made all defensive first teams and an all nba 3rd team didn’t he?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

And lol about him not getting better. He was an all star wasn’t he? He made all defensive first teams and an all nba 3rd team didn’t he?

Those only signify recognition, not improvement. The numbers don't show any actual improvement over his rookie year.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Tough to scout when someone just has head issues. Who could have predicted he was a mental midget?

This is less likely to happen the higher you pick. It doesn't mean it can't happen, it just means that it's less likely to happen.

We've had plenty of head cases picked in the teens and twenties...

 

[sheed30]

You’re glossing over whatever you want trying to make your point. Ben was already missing games with back issues in early 2020. Sorry that doesn’t fit your narrative about his sit-out season. And lol about him not getting better. He was an all star wasn’t he? He made all defensive first teams and an all nba 3rd team didn’t he?

Did you read the context of this discussion when it comes to his injury? Someone said its 'Tough to scout when someone just has head issues' then someone said "just mental issues?" and "he has back surgery twice" basically referring that he had a back injury prior to getting drafted with isn't true. He had no back injuries coming into the NBA....so that was the whole point of this...

and second, doesn't mean he improved did it? He was a great defender coming into the NBA and he stayed a good defender until he got hurt...but the other part of his game, mainly offensively, never improved and actually got worse as his career went on..

Did you forgot how he basically folded in the playoffs with the Sixers in his last season and basically was so shot with confidence that he was scared to take any shots in the 4th quarter in his last series with them?

Ben Simmons 4th quarter that series: Game 1: 2-2 FG Game 2: 0-0 FG Game 3: 1-1 FG Game 4: 0-0 FG Game 5: 0-0 FG Game 6: 0-0 FG Game 7: 0-0 FG

Yet, he isn't a mental midget?

Or let's look at his overall 4th quarter stats as a whole in his career, when the game matters the most...

Ben Simmons has averaged 3.0 points, 2.0 rebounds and 1.4 assists in 290 games in the fourth quarter in his career.

Dude never improved, point blank

 

[kjironman1]

This is less likely to happen the higher you pick. It doesn't mean it can't happen, it just means that it's less likely to happen.

We've had plenty of head cases picked in the teens and twenties...

You do realize ben was picked with the #1 pick right? Do we want to talk about Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennett? Andea Bargnani? I guess Markel Fultz didn't come to mind? The verdict on Portland's own Deandre Ayton is that he is ranked in the top 10 of the worst ever #1 picks. Seriously in the last 25 years you have 8 of the worst #1 picks ever to come along. That doesn't include this last year that might be another bust?
Your "Higher the pick the better" holds some water but the numbers are not great.

 

[Phatguysrule]

You do realize ben was picked with the #1 pick right? Do we want to talk about Kwame Brown? Anthony Bennett? Andea Bargnani? I guess Markel Fultz didn't come to mind? The verdict on Portland's own Deandre Ayton is that he is ranked in the top 10 of the worst ever #1 picks. Seriously in the last 25 years you have 8 of the worst #1 picks ever to come along. That doesn't include this last year that might be another bust?
Your "Higher the pick the better" holds some water but the numbers are not great.

The percentages take all of those guys into consideration.

Once again, nobody has said #1 is a guarantee. Nobody said #1 or bust. It's about doing it consecutively and building your stable of more talented players rather than less talented players.

You still have to draft well if you want the best shot. You still have to have good scouting if you want the best shot. But you're MORE LIKELY to be successful picking higher in the draft. Much more likely if you do it consecutively.

Anecdotal points are taken into account. You can name successes and failures anywhere. But you're far more likely to pick successes higher in the draft and far more likely to pick failures lower than draft.

We have to opportunity to give ourselves the best shot right now. What we don't want to do is be wishing we had done it 5 years from now.

Picking twice in the top 5 we have even or better odds at getting a player who turns into a better player than Simons or Grant.

There is no other way for us to go out and get that kind of player. Other than luck.

 

[kjironman1]

Sure. You’re wrong. He improved after his stellar rookie season. Later he made an All NBA 3rd team, and 2x all defensive 1st teams. His career was derailed by injuries and he struggled with mental health stuff. His messy exit from Philly doesn’t erase the awesome first years he had there.

Nah dude is a bust and everyone knows this. You can't even play the guy in the 4th quarter of a close game. Total metal issues. Do you remember the guy refusing to practice in Oct 2021? It wasn't a back problem. it was a head case problem. I don't even buy the surgery stuff? That very likely could have simply been a ruse to try to keep up some kind of value. Three years in a row we have heard how Ben is way better now. Lets see where we go this year. I'm willing to bet it's same ol same ol.

 

[kjironman1]

The percentages take all of those guys into consideration.

Once again, nobody has said #1 is a guarantee. Nobody said #1 or bust. It's about doing it consecutively and building your stable of more talented players rather than less talented players.

You still have to draft right. You still have to have good scouting. But you're MORE LIKELY to be successful picking higher in the draft. Much more likely if you do it consecutively.

Anecdotal points are taken into account. You can name successes and failures anywhere. But you're far more likely to pick successes higher in the draft and far more likely to pick failures lower than draft.

We have to opportunity to give ourselves the best shot right now. What we don't want to do is be wishing we had done it 5 years from now.

Keep bangin that drum bro. That's literally 36% chance of a bust at number one that you are pushing the team to tank for and get 14% chance at getting. Seriously these are shockingly bad numbers?
Tanking is no guarantee of anything.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Keep bangin that drum bro. That's literally 36% chance of a bust at number one that you are pushing the team to tank for and get 14% chance at getting. Seriously these are shockingly bad numbers?
Tanking is no guarantee of anything.

I haven't said anything other than what you just said.

I have literally said tanking is no guarantee. What I have also said is that it is our BEST CHANCE. And it is.

What do we give up with tanking? Nothing. We risk NOTHING.

But the payoff could be HUGE.

 

[STOMP]

Did you read the context of this discussion when it comes to his injury? Someone said its 'Tough to scout when someone just has head issues' then someone said "just mental issues?" and "he has back surgery twice" basically referring that he had a back injury prior to getting drafted with isn't true.

You recapping what I and others stated is like 1st graders playing the telephone game.

STOMP

 

[kjironman1]

I haven't said anything other than what you just said.

I have literally said tanking is no guarantee. What I have also said is that it is our BEST CHANCE. And it is.

What do we give up with tanking? Nothing. We risk NOTHING.

But the payoff could be HUGE.

Well they will tank and you will be happy. Keep losing bro. Eventually every team will win a playoff game or two.

 

[STOMP]

The verdict on Portland's own Deandre Ayton is that he is ranked in the top 10 of the worst ever #1 picks. Seriously in the last 25 years you have 8 of the worst #1 picks ever to come along. That doesn't include this last year that might be another bust?

Hyperbole much? Good grief, please tell me if you've ever even heard of one of these guys.... Clifton McNeely, Andy Tonkovich, Howie Shannon, Charlie Share, Gene Melchiorre, Mark Workman, Ray Felix, Frank Selvy, Dick Ricketts, Sihugo Green. Those are the first ten #1's & though I'm closing in on 60 and have been a lifelong Bball junkie, none rang a bell.

I have been around long enough to absolutely know that I can list more then ten #1's who's careers were definitely worse then Ayton's already pretty solid run. LaRue Martin ring a bell? Kent Benson, Joe Barely Cares, Pervis Ellison, Michael Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrea Bargnani, Greg Oden, Anthony Bennet & Markelle Fultz... please try arguing any of those guys. I could add another slew of guys who could be argued to have had a lesser run including Ben Simmons. In particular Kenyon Martin is one of my least favorite guys ever to play in the league and I used to love watching Rasheed punk his overblown ego.

Not every draft is loaded with talent, we all know this. This past draft was one that universally was seen as lacking. This next draft is thought to be loaded with talents. If Risacher was in the 2025 class, he might not go in the top 10

STOMP

 

[Phatguysrule]

Well they will tank

I sincerely hope so. It would be a huge missed opportunity to do anything else.

 

[kjironman1]

Hyperbole much? Good grief, please tell me if you've ever even heard of one of these guys.... Clifton McNeely, Andy Tonkovich, Howie Shannon, Charlie Share, Gene Melchiorre, Mark Workman, Ray Felix, Frank Selvy, Dick Ricketts, Sihugo Green. Those are the first ten #1's & though I'm closing in on 60 and have been a lifelong Bball junkie, none rang a bell.

I have been around long enough to absolutely know that I can list more then ten #1's who's careers were definitely worse then Ayton's already pretty solid run. LaRue Martin ring a bell? Kent Benson, Joe Barely Cares, Pervis Ellison, Michael Olowokandi, Kwame Brown, Andrea Bargnani, Greg Oden, Anthony Bennet & Markelle Fultz... please try arguing any of those guys. I could add another slew of guys who could be argued to have had a lesser run including Ben Simmons. In particular Kenyon Martin is one of my least favorite guys ever to play in the league and I used to love watching Rasheed punk his overblown ego.

Not every draft is loaded with talent, we all know this. This past draft was one that universally was seen as lacking. This next draft is thought to be loaded with talents. If Risacher was in the 2025 class, he might not go in the top 10

STOMP

I stopped at the last 25 years but sure I agree there are many more and some are much worse. I also left off players who's career was ended by injury.

 

[kjironman1]

I sincerely hope so. It would be a huge missed opportunity to do anything else.

Losers lose. At some point these players and the coach will either try to win or they will leave and the team continues to lose.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Losers lose. At some point these players and the coach will either try to win or they will leave and the team continues to lose.

Once again, I've never advocated for the players or coaches to try to lose. They should absolutely be playing to win.

But young teams lose. It takes vets to win. Even mediocre vets will help you win against bad teams.

 

[kjironman1]

Once again, I've never advocated for the players or coaches to try to lose. They should absolutely be playing to win.

But young teams lose. It takes vets to win. Even mediocre vets will help you win against bad teans.

Once again "Tanking" is losing ON PURPOSE! Losers lose. Be a loser and you will continue to lose. Players who win don't like to lose. Be a loser and you will lose your players.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

 

[Phatguysrule]

Once again "Tanking" is losing ON PURPOSE! Losers lose. Be a loser and you will continue to lose. Players who win don't like to lose. Be a loser and you will lose your players.

I've not advocated for that. I've advocated for moving off of our middle aged players who don't have all star or all NBA potential.

I've specifically said that if the young guys are too good to lose that is a good problem to have.

This is one reason I keep having to restate my position. You guys keep arguing against things I've already said that I am not advocating for.

And over the timeline we're talking about, if you do a good job the players will not be free agents when you're losing. You'll be one of the best young teams in the NBA.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

Once again "Tanking" is losing ON PURPOSE! Losers lose. Be a loser and you will continue to lose. Players who win don't like to lose. Be a loser and you will lose your players.

Why some cant accept that some others would prefer to be a playoff team with a small small small chance of winning it all instead of being a lottery team with a small chance of winning it all…is mind boggling.
Different people, different preferences. Neither is right or wrong.

Just accept it and move on….

 

[STOMP]

Once again "Tanking" is losing ON PURPOSE! Losers lose. Be a loser and you will continue to lose. Players who win don't like to lose. Be a loser and you will lose your players.

There are plenty of examples of teams that continually lost turning their franchise around once they acquired better players with the Warriors being the most extreme recent example. Pretty sure they had the longest playoff draught in US pro sports prior to going on their championship run.

The front office should never ever tell the players not to try to win as they are motivated by the importance of their individual careers... I don't think anyone is advocating that. But the front office can sit and trade out it's vets that give the team it's legit chance to win without losing it's players. It's pro sports and guys get it. Generally guys in pro sports want to A) make their money & B) win once making money is assured. I'm pretty positive the franchise will start the season with stated intentions to compete for a playoff spot and will shift to plan tank if they struggle as expected.

STOMP

 

[Pinwheel1]

Why some cant accept that some others would prefer to be a playoff team with a small small small chance of winning it all instead of being a lottery team with a small chance of winning it all…is mind boggling.
Different people, different preferences. Neither is right or wrong.

Just accept it and move on….

You are correct neither is right nor wrong. And yes we should accept those with different opinions and move on. And by moving on I mean stop whining about it in almost every thread. It is like the fan in the bar yelling the same thing over and over at the TV set......they can't hear you. There is no reason to repeat it. We all know both sides of the argument, there is nothing more that can be said that we have not already heard. I am not saying never discuss it, just dial it back.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Why some cant accept that some others would prefer to be a playoff team with a small small small chance of winning it all instead of being a lottery team with a small chance of winning it all…is mind boggling.
Different people, different preferences. Neither is right or wrong.

Just accept it and move on….

There is strategy in sports. Certain strategy gives you better odds of success.

This forum is a place to engage in discussion regarding such strategy.

If you don't like the conversation there is nothing to stop you from just accepting it and moving on.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

There is strategy in sports. Certain strategy gives you better odds of success.

This forum is a place to engage in discussion regarding such strategy.

If you don't like the conversation there is nothing to stop you from just accepting it and moving on.

I think we have different definition of conversation then.
I see what you are doing as not conversing but beating a dead horse trying to get everyone to fall in line with your thinking. Most people see it this way at this point.
Self awareness is a great tool!

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think we have different definition of conversation then.
I see what you are doing as not conversing but beating a dead horse trying to get everyone to fall in line with your thinking. Most people see it this way at this point.
Self awareness is a great tool!

Most of the posts are me explaining how people are misapplying points to my position that I have never advocated for or have actually argued against.

They are doing this because the points that I and others have made can't be disputed. Because they are based on facts and probabilities rather than feelings and emotion.

A great example of this can be seen in the movie moneyball. When Billy Bean is explaining to his scouts why doing what seems counterintuitive and less exciting actually leads to more wins given their specific situation.

Yes, you can be illogical and choose to stay mediocre (as Portland has done historically). You can even point out anecdotal evidence to support this choice. That's not wrong. But at least admit that's what you're doing.

Or you can pay attention to historical data and acknowledge the probabilities and follow the path that most likely leads to greater talent on the team, and thereby greater chances for success in the not too distant future, but most importantly for the next decade plus.

 

[Pinwheel1]

They are doing this because the points that I and others have made can't be disputed. Because they are based on facts and probabilities rather than feelings and emotion.

I think this sums up the issue perfectly.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think this sums up the issue perfectly.

Yes, it's crazy that somebody would argue that point. The data is quite clear.

It's okay if you don't like the direction the data suggests taking, it'll cost the team a lot of money. It'll mean lower attendance. We won't have a chance at making the playoffs for a few years. But pretending the data doesn't exist or isn't clear is just silly. The data includes guys like Ben Simmons. It includes Greg Oden.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

There are plenty of examples of teams that continually lost turning their franchise around once they acquired better players with the Warriors being the most extreme recent example. Pretty sure they had the longest playoff draught in US pro sports prior to going on their championship run

In playoffs in 08, 4 years before starting string of playoff appearances leading to title. They are really not a great example of "tanking" paying off

 

[kjironman1]

In playoffs in 08, 4 years before starting string of playoff appearances leading to title. They are really not a great example of "tanking" paying off

Probably better than Minny.
They did get Edwards out of it after a bunch of years trying.

 

[kjironman1]

Cleveland has had a few number one picks and got LeBron.
Maybe the Blazers can get the player that brings the chip? We all know it can happen.