Am I missing something?

[STOMP]

I'm not going to fish around for threads that have people drooling over Rudy and claiming he's "untouchable" but I know I have read it here several times. A LOT of people said no to including Rudy in a deal for David Lee...That is laughable, Lee led the league in double doubles last year...I guess it really depends on what else they would demand in that trade but to say Rudy is more valuable than Lee is absolutely insane. Funny that Rudy is probably the worst on ball defender on the team and yet he gets a pass somehow. Yea he can pass the ball and can shoot the three but how many baskets has he cost the team due to that Euro reach around defense? He made Shane Battier look like an All-Star when he had to guard him during the playoffs. The PER stats do not lie, Martell needs to make a vast improvement this year in that category for me to continue to support him. When he settles down this season I think he will be productive in whatever he brings. With his role I don't see him putting up consistent scoring because there isn't enough shots to go around but that gives him more energy to play defense, finish on fast breaks and rebound...all things Rudy doesn't do well.

Rudy can finish just fine when he's not mugged from behind, plus he can hit his FTs when he's fouled. I don't know why you'd bring up D or rebounding as if Martell had a case to argue. Martell tries on D, I'll give him that, but the results have been pretty poor... lots of and 1s at the rim. The rebounding difference between the two isn't worth arguing about. Both PFs handle the ball better then him, probably Pendercrutches too.

But any way you want to slice up and compare their shooting stats, Rudy's come out on top... and thats the role that both play. More Rudy probably means more Brandon at SF... where statistically he was even deadlier then at SG last year... maybe playing with a threat like Rudy had something to do with that?

so the answer to your OP? is yes, but heres to Martell finally having things click for him

STOMP

 

[jlprk]

To compare Rudy to Webster or Bayless, here is the only statistic you need. Rudy is TINY. He weighs 185. Bayless weighs 200 and Webster is--well, it says 235. I don't believe it. Anyway, Webster can play 2 positions and Rudy can only play one at his weight. (Is it PG? because he's just about too TINY to be a SG.)

Weight affects his ability to drive through traffic and to play tough defense. His nickname should be TINY.

(I'm not saying Webster or Bayless are better, because they're worse. I'm just saying that Rudy isn't the great player so many think he is.)

 

[THE HCP]

If you can ball, you can ball! No matter what size you are! KG and A.I. have been killin people on the court in spite of the fact that they look like they came straight from Somalia! Rudy is gonna be just fine! The only thing he has to worry about is if the Lakers sign Oliver Miller to a 10-Day and he gets hungry for Spanish food!

 

[Luther]

Rudy can finish just fine when he's not mugged from behind, plus he can hit his FTs when he's fouled. I don't know why you'd bring up D or rebounding as if Martell had a case to argue. Martell tries on D, I'll give him that, but the results have been pretty poor... lots of and 1s at the rim. The rebounding difference between the two isn't worth arguing about. Both PFs handle the ball better then him, probably Pendercrutches too.

But any way you want to slice up and compare their shooting stats, Rudy's come out on top... and thats the role that both play. More Rudy probably means more Brandon at SF... where statistically he was even deadlier then at SG last year... maybe playing with a threat like Rudy had something to do with that?

so the answer to your OP? is yes, but heres to Martell finally having things click for him

STOMP

What I'm saying is that Martell has the ability to be a good defender and is young enough to continue to improve in that area. Rudy is the worst on ball defender on the team hands down. There is absolutely no arguing that. Gambling on steals and doing that euro reach around BS is not good defense. He's not athletic enough to block any shots or even contest jumpers. I'm not saying he's a bad player by any means..The guy can flat out score when his shot is falling. But when it isn't he could possibly be the least productive player in the rotation...Is that incorrect?

 

[andalusian]

Good god. Is this what we are up against this year? Before it was how much better Webster is or might be than Travis - and now Rudy?

Should we start the countdown to "how much better Webster is or will be" than Roy?

 

[Minstrel]

Should we start the countdown to "how much better Webster is or will be" than Roy?

He just needs to miss another season, to allow his legend to build a little more.

 

[Luther]

I'm not saying Webster is better than anyone. I'm pointing out the fact that Rudy gets a pass for playing terrible in the playoffs and never playing defense while Martell is always being ridiculed for anything he does wrong. Rudy can go 0-10 and nobody says anything and yet when Martell does it he is the worst player on the team...Am I off with this statement?

 

[STOMP]

I'm not saying Webster is better than anyone. I'm pointing out the fact that Rudy gets a pass for playing terrible in the playoffs and never playing defense while Martell is always being ridiculed for anything he does wrong. Rudy can go 0-10 and nobody says anything and yet when Martell does it he is the worst player on the team...Am I off with this statement?

are you seriously asking? Rudy hasn't ever gone 0-10 that I can recall but he did shoot higher overall percentages from the field, line and deep in his first NBA season then MW ever has. I also don't think I've read anyone calling Martell the worst player on the team. I'm hardly his biggest booster, but if everyone is healthy this year I see him somewhere between 8-11 in the rotation.

STOMP

 

[Masbee]

I think another reason contributing to Rudy's near "untouchable" status was that he performed better early in the season and faded late. At one point during the heart of the season I recall his PER being 18 something. That is terrific for a rookie. That is what Roy did and better than LaMarcus as rookies.

That early performance cemented his status which has not been entirely eroded by his 2nd half fade. He is being given a bit of a pass on that due to the assumption of him hitting the rookie wall.

This season will tell the tale as to that theory. It seems the coaching staff agreed that Rudy was important and needed to be given a bigger role. Unfortunately his body is again letting him and the team down.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Good god. Is this what we are up against this year? Before it was how much better Webster is or might be than Travis - and now Rudy?

Should we start the countdown to "how much better Webster is or will be" than Roy?

We made a huge mistake signing Roy to that max deal. Very soon, Rudy and Webster will both surpass him!

 

[oldmangrouch]

I'm not saying Webster is better than anyone. I'm pointing out the fact that Rudy gets a pass for playing terrible in the playoffs and never playing defense while Martell is always being ridiculed for anything he does wrong. Rudy can go 0-10 and nobody says anything and yet when Martell does it he is the worst player on the team...Am I off with this statement?

There are Portland fans who over-rate Rudy. You are not just imagining that.

 

[Luther]

are you seriously asking? Rudy hasn't ever gone 0-10 that I can recall but he did shoot higher overall percentages from the field, line and deep in his first NBA season then MW ever has. I also don't think I've read anyone calling Martell the worst player on the team. I'm hardly his biggest booster, but if everyone is healthy this year I see him somewhere between 8-11 in the rotation.

STOMP

0-10 was just an example. Wasn't citing any specific game. What you're failing to mention is Rudy came into the league as a 24 year old. Martell is 22...That makes a huge difference. All I'm getting at is that Rudy isn't held accountable for poor play in here. It seems the downsides of his game are completely ignored while Martell is roasted constantly. There was just a thread about Martell regressing as a player.....

 

[BlazerCaravan]

are you seriously asking? Rudy hasn't ever gone 0-10 that I can recall

That's true. Checking his game logs, I see no huge 0-fer's... There are a few bad performances though (criteria for a "bad performance": at least 6 shots, no more than 2 makes, less than 30% FG):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/f/fernaru01/gamelog/2009/

2008-11-22 - 1 for 9
2008-12-05 - 2 for 7
2008-12-11 - 2 for 7
2008-12-12 - 2 for 11
2008-12-30 - 2 for 7
2009-01-24 - 2 for 11
2009-01-28 - 2 for 7
2009-02-06 - 1 for 6
2009-02-25 - 2 for 8
2009-03-01 - 2 for 10
2009-03-16 - 1 for 7
2009-03-19 - 1 for 6

Martell's Rookie Season (same criteria):
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/webstma02/gamelog/2006/

2005-11-04 - 1 for 6
2005-12-04 - 2 for 11
2006-03-16 - 1 for 7

Martell and Rudy both have some great performances as well in their rookie seasons.

Here's a comparison link:

http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=1&p1=webstma02&y1=2006&p2=fernaru01&y2=2009

Look at the Per 36 Min stat line and the Advanced Stat line... Martell was less efficient as a player (thus the lower PER), but their per-36 minute performances are actually rather close.

 

[Blazer4ever]

Martel and Rudy are two of our top players, definitely two of our top bench players, they play well together and feed off each other. I'm a huge Rudy fan (as you remember from me advocating inserting him into the SL) but I must admit - also a big Webster fan. I think both are untouchable.

 

[Denny Crane]

From what I see, Rudy was an impact/rotation player as a rookie, while Webster is something of a project.

 

[STOMP]

What you're failing to mention is Rudy came into the league as a 24 year old. Martell is 22...That makes a huge difference.

I was unaware that we were discussing their ages. Unfortunately Martell hasn't improved much if at all since he came into the league... or, going by stats his career is one flat peak starting his rookie season. Projecting out his improvement rate in PER from his rookie season to his 3rd, he should match Rudy's rookie year PER when he's about 40 years old.

All I'm getting at is that Rudy isn't held accountable for poor play in here. It seems the downsides of his game are completely ignored while Martell is roasted constantly. There was just a thread about Martell regressing as a player.....

all I'm getting at is when you ask questions siting incorrect data and opinions that NO ONE has expressed, you're being ridiculous.

btw, Rudy was 23 last season, not 24. Why do you keep distorting facts in Martell's favor?

STOMP

 

[oldmangrouch]

What's really disturbing, is that this discussion is even necessary.

We know what Webster brings to the table. The fact that Nic and Rudy haven't left him in their rear-view mirrors is a big disappointment. If they had shown any improvement over their rookie campaigns, this whole debate wouldn't be taking place.

 

[Luther]

I was unaware that we were discussing their ages. Unfortunately Martell hasn't improved much if at all since he came into the league... or, going by stats his career is one flat peak starting his rookie season. Projecting out his improvement rate in PER from his rookie season to his 3rd, he should match Rudy's rookie year PER when he's about 40 years old.

all I'm getting at is when you ask questions siting incorrect data and opinions that NO ONE has expressed, you're being ridiculous.

btw, Rudy was 23 last season, not 24. Why do you keep distorting facts in Martell's favor?

STOMP

We'll just agree to disagree. It's not worth going back and forth over something so small. The point of this thread was to understand why most people in here do not hold Rudy accountable for poor performance...I wanted to hear opinions and I got em....I guess. To say that I'm citing opinions that NOBODY has expressed is just ridiculous...THERE WAS JUST A THREAD ABOUT MARTELL REGRESSING...Either way both of these guys should be around for a while and will be apart of deep playoff runs. They play off of eachother well from what we've seen so I'm excited for the season.

 

[STOMP]

We'll just agree to disagree. It's not worth going back and forth over something so small. The point of this thread was to understand why most people in here do not hold Rudy accountable for poor performance...I wanted to hear opinions and I got em....I guess. To say that I'm citing opinions that NOBODY has expressed is just ridiculous...THERE WAS JUST A THREAD ABOUT MARTELL REGRESSING...Either way both of these guys should be around for a while and will be apart of deep playoff runs. They play off of eachother well from what we've seen so I'm excited for the season.

right someone said they thought he might be regressing, but NO ONE said he's the worst player on the team as you claimed. I'm not sure what you think we're agreeing to disagree about but I think it would be great if you could stick to the facts... if you have to distort things to make a case for a player you lose the argument from the get go.

Now with Nic out Martell should get all the opportunities he could hope for. We'll all be rooting for him, but if he continues to do what he's done I'm hopeful the excuses will stop.

STOMP

 

[STOMP]

What's really disturbing, is that this discussion is even necessary.

We know what Webster brings to the table. The fact that Nic and Rudy haven't left him in their rear-view mirrors is a big disappointment. If they had shown any improvement over their rookie campaigns, this whole debate wouldn't be taking place.

good grief dude, hows the "travesty of the Ducks season" going for you or have you completely abandoned that worry train to knock your knees about a Blazer season that hasn't even started?

STOMP

 

[Eastoff]

Why can't we keep both? One plays the 2 and the other the 3.

this. I don't see what you're getting so upset about. Don't they get about the same amount of minutes? When Rudy's rookie contract is up, we can trade him for someone. If you wanted to argue about Rudy being worth less than someone, you should compare him to someone that left.

 

[Luther]

right someone said they thought he might be regressing, but NO ONE said he's the worst player on the team as you claimed. I'm not sure what you think we're agreeing to disagree about but I think it would be great if you could stick to the facts... if you have to distort things to make a case for a player you lose the argument from the get go.

Now with Nic out Martell should get all the opportunities he could hope for. We'll all be rooting for him, but if he continues to do what he's done I'm hopeful the excuses will stop.

STOMP

What on earth are you talking about? How have I distorted any facts? Go ahead and enlighten me please. I said I was exaggerating the "worst player on the team" thing and you keep harping on it. Fall back. I didn't title the post HEY STOMP LETS ARGUE ABOUT MARTELL WEBSTER so I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up...We will see what happens when he gets PT for the next 3-5 months. If he doesn't play well, I will be the first one to admit I was wrong about the guy but he's 22 years old. He's going to have growing pains, I don't care if he's played 10 years in the NBA up until this point and hasn't played well. BRoy has publicly stated he is thoroughly impressed with Martells progression this off season, I think I'll stick with our best players opinion over what an NBA fan...

 

[STOMP]

What on earth are you talking about? How have I distorted any facts? Go ahead and enlighten me please. I said I was exaggerating the "worst player on the team" thing and you keep harping on it.

So you're both asking to be enlightened as to your distortions while whining about me doing so Prior to this last post I'm responding to, no where in this thread did you admit you were exaggerating the "worst player on the team" thing. You have exaggerated Rudy's age and assigned him worse shooting nights then he has ever had as "an example" of what you're talking about. You also claim that Martell should get minutes over Rudy because of his rebounding and D despite Martell's D generally sucking and his rebounding stats being extremely close to Rudy's. How you're getting indignant about having this stuff pointed out is beyond me.

I didn't title the post HEY STOMP LETS ARGUE ABOUT MARTELL WEBSTER so I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up.

who is getting worked up? I'm didn't start a thread where I'm making stuff up to support my views, I'm relaying facts... some facts that apparently you were missing (what's the title of this thread again?). If you want to go on a distortion based rant slanted in one Blazer's favor over a superior player and not have anyone counter you with reality, just write it down on paper and post it on your wall... or lecture your dog. On this chat site you should expect a response.

STOMP

 

[hasoos]

Once again, stats do not tell the whole story. Some players "Make plays". Some do not. Rudy came in and made plays last year, it was that simple. In the playoffs, nobody outside of Roy really played well, including Aldridge, who I think could have performed better. If we judged the team based purely off of playoff performance, who would be left? Roy, and that's it.

 

[LittleAlex]

It seems to me Rudy has a much better "handle" with the ball then does Martell. That's a valuable skill that I am not sure is captured by stats.

Also, Rudy is a rookie. Sure he played in the Euroleagues but that still isn't even close to the NBA.

He started off pretty strong, then wore down as the season progressed. I figure I would give Rudy a couple more years before I said he wasn't any better then Webster.

 

[Luther]

Making up facts eh? At no point did I say that Martell is better than or deserves more minutes than anyone on the team. That is making up facts to further your argument. I said Martell is better on D and rebounds better. He crashes the boards..When have you ever seen Rudy get up and block somebody's shot or crash the boards? You're acting like I said Rudy was 24 last year to further my argument...My bad he was 23 until April. I said Rudy CAN go 0-10....Not DID...You understand the difference between those? Are we clear that I was exaggerating that and was not citing it as fact? I asked for someone to please explain to me why Martell is hated on and Rudy is revered when they both have holes in their game.

All I'm getting at is that Rudy isn't held accountable for poor play in here

 

[Natebishop3]

Rudy brings excitement, especially at home. He riles the fans up. He's fun to watch. I guess that's what I enjoy most about him.

My two concerns:

1) How is he doing now that Sergio is gone? Where is his head at?

2) Is he going to be okay as a bench player, at least for the next few years?

The way I see it, if we can hold onto Rudy through his rookie contract, he might help us get a championship. There's no rush, unless he becomes a chemistry issue. We can always move him in two years.

 

[STOMP]

Making up facts eh? At no point did I say that Martell is better than or deserves more minutes than anyone on the team. That is making up facts to further your argument.

a fact is something that is inarguable, like Rudy shooting higher percentages from the field, FT line, and deep in 08-09 then Martell ever has. An opinion is a belief in something that is not absolutely established, like what posters might say if Rudy someday went 0-10. You seem to be confusing the two.

I said Martell is better on D and rebounds better. He crashes the boards..When have you ever seen Rudy get up and block somebody's shot or crash the boards?

Rudy & Martell's shotblocking totals are almost identical, none, but then guards don't usually guard the hoop while forwards do. Is there a reason that you chose to omit mentioning steals? Martell's D is nothing special, I feel equally uncomfortable with either guarding a decent scoring wing.

Recall the last season Martell was starting. Around the trade deadline and then again in the offseason, in every single KP interview he'd site a club need of adding a defensive wing player. Then in the draft he traded assets for the rights to Batum siting his ability to defend. If Martell was even passable on defense, why is Portland's GM saying these things and using his assets this way?

You're acting like I said Rudy was 24 last year to further my argument...My bad he was 23 until April.

right, he turned 24 after last season. Thats is a fact. When there is a strong correlation between the guy you're hailing and which way your my bads & exagerations are going, it's the reader's fault for noticing?

I said Rudy CAN go 0-10....Not DID...You understand the difference between those?

I understand what you're doing just fine. You're exaggerating (or making shit up) throughout this thread to cast the guy you favor in a good light while doing just the opposite with the guy who up till yesterday likely would have kept your guy collecting splinters.

I asked for someone to please explain to me why Martell is hated on and Rudy is revered when they both have holes in their game.

posters already pointed out Rudy's efficiency advantages over Martell as a shooter and overall player... stats don't hate.

STOMP