Religion Americans Skeptical Of God But Think Heaven Is Real, Somehow

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crowTrobot said:
and ceases to exist when we die
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Come on crow, you made the statement of finality. So let see how firm you are.
Do you know if you have or ever had a soul? Do you know the answer to the same question for everyone else?
 
MarAzul said:
Do you know if you have or ever had a soul? Do you know the answer to the same question for everyone else?
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What do you think a soul is?

I've never heard anyone say anything meaningfully descriptive about the concept of a soul without referring to aspects that neuroscience has shown require a properly functioning body/brain.

Whatever a soul is, it does not appear to be the source of self awareness, personality, experience, or memory. Those things can all be manipulated (or turned off individually) by manipulating the brain in different ways. What else is there?
 
crowTrobot said:
What do you think a soul is?

I've never heard anyone say anything meaningfully descriptive about the concept of a soul without referring to aspects that neuroscience has shown require a properly functioning body/brain.

Whatever a soul is, it does not appear to be the source of self awareness, personality, experience, or memory. Those things can all be manipulated (or turned off individually) by manipulating the brain in different ways. What else is there?
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Your questions holds the answer.

Do you believe science now has a 100% understanding of everything, and science can explain everything?

If you believe science already has reached its limit of understanding, then you have a closed mind.

I am very skeptical of everything, but I keep an open mind to learn more. Not only do I believe people have souls, I also believe souls are part of nature. I am not sure how far souls extend into nature? Some people believe trees and rocks have souls. I am skeptical on going that far, especially the rock part, but I believe dogs have souls.


Have you ever been with a person or dog when they died? The feeling you get at the moment it happens is not what you would expect, or what you see in movies. At least for me it has been much different than what I expected. There is a complete feeling of peacefulness. Like the person or dog was released from carrying a large heavy load, and now their soul can fly.
 
oldfisherman said:
Your questions holds the answer
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Well yeah it does. It's impossible for anyone to have any kind of mental grasp of what a soul actually is without referencing something physical. Same goes for anything at all metaphysical (or objectively moral). Proponents never actually conceptualize these things. It's all overtly non-cognitive, and in the case of soul that continues after physical death, essentially reduces to wishful thinking.

Do you believe science now has a 100% understanding of everything, and science can explain everything?
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Of course not. But if you want to be rational that isn't license to believe in whatever you want, particularly if your belief is in something with contrary evidence (previously described neuroscience).

I am very skeptical of everything, but I keep an open mind to learn more.
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I doubt I'm less skeptical of science and less open minded than you are. The scientific evidence that humans are the soulless product of evolution is pretty overwhelming, though. Like a spherical Earth at some point you have to take it seriously.

but I believe dogs have souls.
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How far down the animal ladder do you have to go to find something living without a soul? Do mice also have souls? Reptiles? Fish? Nematodes?

Have you ever been with a person or dog when they died? The feeling you get at the moment it happens is not what you would expect, or what you see in movies. At least for me it has been much different than what I expected. There is a complete feeling of peacefulness. Like the person or dog was released from carrying a large heavy load, and now their soul can fly.
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I'm not impressed by citing feelings as evidence. Humans are demonstrably prone to being misled by their emotions.
 
What I observe is that animals do have intelligence and consciousness, to a large degree. The more complex the species, the more refined these things are.

What separates us from most of the other animals is our awareness of self. We are aware that we are aware. We have the capacity to learn about arbitrary things unrelated to direct survival. We grasp the concept of tomorrow and time and planning for the future.

Some animals do hoard food, for example, for the winter months. This is evidence that their intelligence is a product of evolution and survival needs. Animals can be trained - they have some ability to learn.

It's obvious to me that our intelligence and consciousness are the result of evolution. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's also clear that damaged or malfunctioning biological facilities affects consciousness and intelligence.

I cannot justify a soul for the reasons crow has stated. The definition relies on our biology but somehow is distinct from it? Obvious questions arise, like what are the properties of the soul of a human born a vegetable? This person never develpos a personality that differentiates from others with similar defects.
 
crowTrobot said:
What do you think a soul is?
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You evaded the question. Another question is not an answer.
I suspect some people may not have a soul. I ask you if you knew whether you had one or not. Perhaps you don't know. I am certain you do not know the answer for any other person.
 
MarAzul said:
You evaded the question. Another question is not an answer.
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Not evading, making a point - the concept of a soul itself is too vague to be meaningful.

It should be obvious from my comments I don't think anything about humans survives after death.

I suspect some people may not have a soul.
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If you think humans function the same with or without a soul, what exactly is it?
 
MarAzul said:
No I think maybe some are without the soul, perhaps that would account for sensing a difference. So not the same at all.
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Interesting that you say this. I have often pondered that there are a finite number of souls. That makes it far easier to explain the evil in this world. My intellect tells me that what we are seeing in modern events has been foretold, but it is hard to believe that those that do such evil are truly human.
 
MarAzul

Just for you. Understand, I hate religion. But there is only one way for an after life that is positive. You are a numbers guy. Easy math. You dont have to be perfect. God works with the very broken. You know this, from Moses to David and so on and so on. It is an easy decision. Do you believe that Jesus died for all of our sins? It really is the most important thing you ever ponder. If the odds are 51% to 49%, what say you?.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
MarAzul

Just for you. Understand, I hate religion. But there is only one way for an after life that is positive. You are a numbers guy. Easy math. You dont have to be perfect. God works with the very broken. You know this, from Moses to David and so on and so on. It is an easy decision. Do you believe that Jesus died for all of our sins? It really is the most important thing you ever ponder. If the odds are 51% to 49%, what say you?.
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I can't force the issue, so I am just in the uncommitted column. I am comfortable proceeding on until someone slaps me up along side the head, with a I told you!
But then hell, it won't be the first time.
 
If you think about the existence of a God you may first think of religion's depiction of God as an active God. I believe that this is why many people deny the existence of a God, because this is how they perceive God to be, and in such a perception you have to ask yourself "Why would god stand by and let this happen?".

With that question at the front of so many peoples minds it seems inevitable that with enough time the belief of an active God will disappear. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing either. On the contrary maybe if more people believed they were solely responsible for the future, our world could be a better place.
 
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MarAzul said:
You evaded the question. Another question is not an answer.
I suspect some people may not have a soul. I ask you if you knew whether you had one or not. Perhaps you don't know. I am certain you do not know the answer for any other person.
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I am curious to hear your answer to his question on what you believe a soul to be.

I believe our soul is our filter through which we are created. For instance if you go buy a bottle of bubbles and a few different wands. If we are the bubbles then the wands are our soul.

I don't think you can be brought into this existence without a soul. It would be like trying to fly without a ticket. However we're not bound by our soul, and are easily influenced by the world around us. In fact I believe most people are probably shaped more based off of their environment and what they have encountered in life than they are of their soul... Or maybe that is all wrong and we are completely made up of our soul and all outside factors shape it as we go through life.
 
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MarAzul said:
What's this? The devil done with you already?
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Well that ol' Devil bowed his head
Because he knew Trump had been beat
And he laid that golden dildo
Down on the ground at barfo's feet

barfo said, "Devil,just come on back
If you ever wanna try again
I done told you once you son of a bitch
I'm the best there's ever been"

barfo
 
Fonzthecpt1 said:
I am curious to hear your answer to his question on what you believe a soul to be.
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I think you are quite close to answering it yourself. Like I said, I am not sure we all have a soul, some sure live their lives as if it was never completely outfitted.
And then perhaps the soul need nurturing to become complete, so that leaves room for incompleteness.
But it does seem there is a sense of being, that is beyond the body and biology. My being that I first remember as a toddler, is the same guy it was twenty years later, and then the same guy is still here today. He asks different question, he seeks different things, and yet he is the same. His body is sure as hell different, but he is not. He could move right into another and be right at home.

I am with you on God, while I am sure we were created by god, I have no sense that he interferes with us daily or actually at all. Probably does not need to since most of us have the soul created by god to guide the biological creature at the higher level, conscience, morality, spiritually.
 
barfo said:
Well that ol' Devil bowed his head
Because he knew Trump had been beat
And he laid that golden dildo
Down on the ground at barfo's feet

barfo said, "Devil,just come on back
If you ever wanna try again
I done told you once you son of a bitch
I'm the best there's ever been"

barfo
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Well done!
 
MarAzul said:
I think you are quite close to answering it yourself. Like I said, I am not sure we all have a soul, some sure live their lives as if it was never completely outfitted.
And then perhaps the soul need nurturing to become complete, so that leaves room for incompleteness.
But it does seem there is a sense of being, that is beyond the body and biology. My being that I first remember as a toddler, is the same guy it was twenty years later, and then the same guy is still here today. He asks different question, he seeks different things, and yet he is the same. His body is sure as hell different, but he is not.

I am with you on God, while I am sure we were created by god, I have no sense that he interferes with us daily or actually at all. Probably does not need to since most of us have the soul created by god to guide the biological creature at the higher level, conscience, morality, spiritually.
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Could you give an example of somebody you would claim does not have a soul. Are you saying for instance Adolf Hitler did not have a soul because he was able to do all the inhumane things he did?
 
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Fonzthecpt1 said:
If you think about the existence of a God you may first think of religion's depiction of God as an active God. I believe that this is why many people deny the existence of a God, because this is how they perceive God to be, and in such a perception you have to ask yourself "Why would god stand by and let this happen?".

With that question at the front of so many peoples minds it seems inevitable that with enough time the belief of an active God will disappear. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing either. On the contrary maybe if more people believed they were solely responsible for the future, our world could be a better place.
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What God wants God gets God help us all
What God wants God gets
The kid in the corner looked at the priest
And fingered his pale blue Japanese guitar
The priest said
God wants goodness
God wants light
God wants mayhem
God wants a clean fight
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
It's only dogma
The alien prophet cried
The beetle and the springbok
Took the bible from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the lesson in his book
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants peace
God wants war
God wants famine
God wants chain stories
What God wants God gets
God wants sedition
God wants sex
God wants freedom
God wants semtex
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
I'm only joking
The alien comic cried
The jackass and hyena
Took the feather from its book
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the joke down his book
What God wants God gets
God wants boarders
God wants crack
God wants rainfall
God wants wetbacks
What God wants God gets
God wants voodoo
God wants shrines
God wants law
God wants organised crime
God wants crusade
God wants jihad
God wants good
God wants bad
What God wants God gets
 
Fonzthecpt1 said:
Could you give an example of somebody you would claim does not have a soul. Are you saying for instance Adolf Hitler did not have a soul because he was able to do all the inhumane things he did?
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No, I don't think I know anymore about Hitler than you do. We can only see him through what ever history allows us, that surely is no portal into a mans soul. Perhaps his book(s) would help but I was never able to suffer through his Mine Camp.

I get the impression occasionally just talking with people that seem to be nothing more than the biological being with no continuity in self through time, only what you see and hear now. Then there are others, that go out of there way to make it clear they have and are stiffing and overtly ignoring the soul, not allowing it to be nurtured. As if to communicate there is nothing more that what you see now as if there is a prize to be awarded to the most convincing by the judge they denies exist. I think the evil acts done occasionally are only part of the effort to be convincing.

Ha! Sort of laughable in a way, since none could possible ever point to a reward for being most convincing. Certainly not Hitler.
 
MarAzul said:
I get the impression occasionally just talking with people that seem to be nothing more than the biological being with no continuity in self through time, only what you see and hear now.
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What specifically is it that you think is temporally continuous in some humans but not in others? (a vague impression you have that some people are "real" and others are biological automatons isn't evidence for anything.)
 
Fonzthecpt1 said:
I believe our soul is our filter through which we are created. For instance if you go buy a bottle of bubbles and a few different wands. If we are the bubbles then the wands are our soul.

I don't think you can be brought into this existence without a soul. It would be like trying to fly without a ticket. However we're not bound by our soul, and are easily influenced by the world around us. In fact I believe most people are probably shaped more based off of their environment and what they have encountered in life than they are of their soul...
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If a soul is just a template you could just as easily substitute the word genetics for the word soul in the above and it would be just as meaningful. And there is actual objective evidence that genetics exists.

Or maybe that is all wrong and we are completely made up of our soul and all outside factors shape it as we go through life.
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Then you're back to the problem of who we are being easily manipulated by altering the brain or body chemistry.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
Interesting that you say this. I have often pondered that there are a finite number of souls. That makes it far easier to explain the evil in this world.
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The definition of evil is subjective, and by any definition postulating that some people are real and others are automatons explains nothing.
 
crowTrobot said:
a vague impression
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Well you give the impression Crow. I ask you if you have a soul. You gave no answer. So that and your questions now, "What specifically is it..." reinforces the impression.
I suspect there is no bridge here.
 
To me the most important part of faith was finding a line that separated God from religion. Ive never wanted anything to do with religion but have always believed there had to be an Intelligent creator of some sort.

For many years I considered myself agnostic for this reason, I knew there was a creator, because the big bang and macro evolutionary theory are horse shit and defy the laws of thermodynamics. Intelligent life requires Intelligent programming, it's simple algebra. I also reject organic life sprouting from a pool of inorganic soup.

I began reading the bible as a result of religion, and I learned who God really is. Coincidentally, the bible showed me that the preacher who had got me to pick the bible up, was himself, full of shit. Upon reading I felt the conviction and knew I had to make a decision, are the words in the book real, or bullshit? I decided to test them, and found them to hold true, so I began believing.

I still dont consider myself religious, but I know christ died for my sins and as a result he has chosen to include me in his after life. Why he chose me I don't know, because I have done nothing to deserve the gift, but I am grateful.
 
MarAzul said:
Well you give the impression Crow. I ask you if you have a soul. You gave no answer. So that and your questions now, "What specifically is it..." reinforces the impression.
I suspect there is no bridge here.
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Well then if a soul is something that makes you eschew logic and critical analysis of objective evidence in favor of vague subjective impressions I'm OK without one.

My point was you have no concept of what a soul actually is other than a word. You're just using the term as a purely semantic vehicle to facilitate your own ego driven wishful thinking.
 
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