Religion Americans Skeptical Of God But Think Heaven Is Real, Somehow

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rasheedfan2005 said:
To me the most important part of faith was finding a line that separated God from religion. Ive never wanted anything to do with religion but have always believed there had to be an Intelligent creator of some sort.

For many years I considered myself agnostic for this reason, I knew there was a creator, because the big bang and macro evolutionary theory are horse shit and defy the laws of thermodynamics. Intelligent life requires Intelligent programming, it's simple algebra. I also reject organic life sprouting from a pool of inorganic soup.

I began reading the bible as a result of religion, and I learned who God really is. Coincidentally, the bible showed me that the preacher who had got me to pick the bible up, was himself, full of shit. Upon reading I felt the conviction and knew I had to make a decision, are the words in the book real, or bullshit? I decided to test them, and found them to hold true, so I began believing.

I still dont consider myself religious, but I know christ died for my sins and as a result he has chosen to include me in his after life. Why he chose me I don't know, because I have done nothing to deserve the gift, but I am grateful.
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Very well said.
 
Just playing devils advocate here to expand on your thoughts and theory. You said.


Denny Crane said:
What I observe is that animals do have intelligence and consciousness, to a large degree. The more complex the species, the more refined these things are.

What separates us from most of the other animals is our awareness of self. We are aware that we are aware. We have the capacity to learn about arbitrary things unrelated to direct survival. We grasp the concept of tomorrow and time and planning for the future.

Some animals do hoard food, for example, for the winter months. This is evidence that their intelligence is a product of evolution and survival needs. Animals can be trained - they have some ability to learn.

It's obvious to me that our intelligence and consciousness are the result of evolution. Nothing more, nothing less.

It's also clear that damaged or malfunctioning biological facilities affects consciousness and intelligence.

I cannot justify a soul for the reasons crow has stated. The definition relies on our biology but somehow is distinct from it? Obvious questions arise, like what are the properties of the soul of a human born a vegetable? This person never develpos a personality that differentiates from others with similar defects.
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If humans are the only species that truly grasps the concept of time and planning for the future, which shows our intelligence and consciousness is a product of evolution. Then why are we the only species that has a plan to cause our own extinction, as well as the only species that has ever built the means to eradicate every one of our own species?

The result of your evolution theory probably will end with humans as one of the youngest species ever to go extinct, but also the only species that caused its own extinction.

Wouldn’t our ability to self destruct indicate that there is something far beyond evolution within us? Something we do not see or understand yet? The forces of good and evil are in all humans, not just a few such as Hitler. Those forces will determine how long our species remains on earth. Maybe those forces are part of our soul?

The oldest living creature on earth is the sponge, which probably does not have a soul. Ants, jellyfish, sharks, shrimp, sturgeon, lampreys, and horseshoe crab are some of the other oldest living species on earth. I doubt any of them have souls. As far as I know, none of them ever had a plan or the means to self destruct their entire species. What makes humans better as a species than any of the oldest species because we can plan for the future? Especially since our ability to plan probably will result in our own extinction.


We are different from many other species, we have a soul. But it does not make us better than other species. The soul holds us responsible for our actions and plans, hopefully
 
crowTrobot said:
Yet you believe Christianity is specifically true and other religions are necessarily false.
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I can not speak for him. To me Religion is all bull shit. Religion is a set of rules and actions designed to make us worthy of ascending to heaven. The thing is that man is incapable of being perfect. Thus regardless of how wonderful we believe we are our actions will never attain that state.

Christianity is a belief that we are saved by grace, not our actions. All we have to do is accept the gift.
 
oldfisherman said:
If humans are the only species that truly grasps the concept of time and planning for the future, which shows our intelligence and consciousness is a product of evolution. Then why are we the only species that has a plan to cause our own extinction
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Our species doesn't have a plan to cause its own extinction. A few psychopathic individuals might.

The vast majority of humans are rooting for our species to survive, both instinctively and intellectually. There's obviously no intrinsic desire in us to cause our own self destruction.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
To me Religion is all bull shit. Religion is a set of rules and actions designed to make us worthy of ascending to heaven. The thing is that man is incapable of being perfect. Thus regardless of how wonderful we believe we are our actions will never attain that state.
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He was, and to a lesser extent you are, saying religion is bullshit then making statements that are derived from specific religious tenets.
 
crowTrobot said:
Our species doesn't have a plan to cause its own extinction. A few psychopathic individuals might.

The vast majority of humans are rooting for our species to survive, both instinctively and intellectually. There's obviously no intrinsic desire in us to cause our own self destruction.
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Many humans self destruct everyday, on many levels.
Some humans are only hurting themselves. Drug addiction is just one example.
Other humans cause destruction to family and friends.
The most powerful humans can cause damage to millions and billions of people.


Since you like science, some scientists predict humans will be extinct within 100 years. Some scientists predict our own overpopulation will eventually lead to our extinction, due to the limit of how many people the earth can feed. There are many ways we can cause our own extinction.
 
Well........If your a Muslim in heaven that gets exactly 72 virgins (of unknown quality) why would you need a God?
 
crowTrobot said:
He was, and to a lesser extent you are, saying religion is bullshit then making statements that are derived from specific religious tenets.
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I thought I explained it a plainly as I could. I have a belief system, Religion distorts what I believe.
 
oldfisherman said:
Many humans self destruct everyday, on many levels.
Some humans are only hurting themselves. Drug addiction is just one example.
Other humans cause destruction to family and friends.
The most powerful humans can cause damage to millions and billions of people.
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There are many examples of both empathetic/altruistic behavior - and self destruction and apparent malevolence elsewhere in the animal kingdom. Homo sapiens are not special in that regard.

Since you like science, some scientists predict humans will be extinct within 100 years.
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I doubt any think we will as a species intentionally cause it to happen.

Some scientists predict our own overpopulation will eventually lead to our extinction, due to the limit of how many people the earth can feed.
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Also not unique to homo sapiens, and would obviously not be intentional.

There are many ways we can cause our own extinction.
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There are many factors that lead to extinction for any species. 99.9% of species that have ever existed are extinct.

The way homo sapiens ARE unique is we have reached the intellectual capacity where we might see it coming and be able to avoid it. That's obviously what most of us want. I don't know anyone that's rooting for it.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
I thought I explained it a plainly as I could. I have a belief system, Religion distorts what I believe.
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So you mean religions other than yours are bullshit.

However modified your belief system is clearly derived from a specific religion.
 
crowTrobot said:
So you mean religions other than yours are bullshit.

However modified your belief system is clearly derived from a specific religion.
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no, quite the opposite

many religions are a derivative of what I believe. A set of practices and rituals created by men, not the word of God

I understand, you dont get it. See, I enjoy a fellowship with God, but I never want to "get religion" . God frees us that so choose while religion enslaves
 
For those that do believe in Heaven:

What do you guys think happens when we die? Do we as our person actually go to another place, or do we go there in our minds?
 
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DaLincolnJones said:
no, quite the opposite

many religions are a derivative of what I believe. A set of practices and rituals created by men, not the word of God
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If you are defining religion just as ritual then I can see your point. But what you believe is clearly a modified version of Christianity, or at least something derived from it specifically, so in that sense you are adhering to a specific religion.
 
crowTrobot said:
If you are defining religion just as ritual then I can see your point. But what you believe is clearly a modified version of Christianity, or at least something derived from it specifically, so in that sense you are adhering to a specific religion.
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meh I dont want to have the history of religion conversation. To be succinct, again you have it backwards. Christianity is based upon the belief in Jesus, not the other way around. Religion is a derivative of the former.
 
oldfisherman said:
Just playing devils advocate here to expand on your thoughts and theory. You said.




If humans are the only species that truly grasps the concept of time and planning for the future, which shows our intelligence and consciousness is a product of evolution. Then why are we the only species that has a plan to cause our own extinction, as well as the only species that has ever built the means to eradicate every one of our own species?

The result of your evolution theory probably will end with humans as one of the youngest species ever to go extinct, but also the only species that caused its own extinction.

Wouldn’t our ability to self destruct indicate that there is something far beyond evolution within us? Something we do not see or understand yet? The forces of good and evil are in all humans, not just a few such as Hitler. Those forces will determine how long our species remains on earth. Maybe those forces are part of our soul?

The oldest living creature on earth is the sponge, which probably does not have a soul. Ants, jellyfish, sharks, shrimp, sturgeon, lampreys, and horseshoe crab are some of the other oldest living species on earth. I doubt any of them have souls. As far as I know, none of them ever had a plan or the means to self destruct their entire species. What makes humans better as a species than any of the oldest species because we can plan for the future? Especially since our ability to plan probably will result in our own extinction.


We are different from many other species, we have a soul. But it does not make us better than other species. The soul holds us responsible for our actions and plans, hopefully
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I didn't say we are the only species that grasps time or planning for the future. I even gave examples of animals that store food for the winter. How about apes that use tools, like sticks to dig ants out of a tree stump? Isn't that planning of a sort? ("If I use the tool, I can dig out the ants and eat!").

I don't think we're planning our own extinction. We have evolved to the point we can, but I am pretty sure other species have made themselves go extinct and that our objective is to avoid our own extinction.

Hitler? He's a product of bad brain chemistry and environment. Trivial explanation, but occam's razor rules.
 
Fonzthecpt1 said:
For those that do believe in Heaven:

What do you guys think happens when we die? Do we as our person actually go to another place, or do we go there in our minds?
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Actually I don't think the mission is to go to Heaven. The more immediate need is to avoid Hell here during your alloted time. Perhaps there is another state for the soul to progress after the biology
here ceases to function. Seems a terrific waste if not, not even logical. Heaven is only a name, we know nothing of the state of being, but I am sure it will only accommodate the soul, no biology.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
Christianity is based upon the belief in Jesus
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Phrasing it that way doesn't change anything. The Bible is derived from Christianity and your belief is derived from your interpretation of the Bible. It's all one big wad of religion. You're just choosing to use oddball semantics.
 
Easter is based upon the belief in the Easter Bunny.

:crazy:
 
I thought I might try a little more to explain what is meant by the Soul since some seem so intent on discounting the concept. But I really can't. The meaning in other religions is about the same as I have already stated as my understanding.

Soul is defined in the English language and I think it is so for Christians.

"The immaterial part of a person; the actuating cause of an individual life"

Buddhist

Do not have a word for Soul, but there is an idea of the concept.
In "as an unchanging personal principle that continues in time infinitely."

Hinduism
Has the word Ātman (Sanskrit)
Meaning inner self, the true self beyond the biological, the essence of the individual.

I think I came quite close in describing the idea in the prior post, Covering most peoples understanding.
" I am not sure we all have a soul, some sure live their lives as if it was never completely outfitted.
And then perhaps the soul need nurturing to become complete, so that leaves room for incompleteness.
But it does seem there is a sense of being, that is beyond the body and biology. My being that I first remember as a toddler, is the same guy it was twenty years later, and then the same guy is still here today. He asks different question, he seeks different things, and yet he is the same. His body is sure as hell different, but he is not. He could move right into another and be right at home.

I am with you on God, while I am sure we were created by god, I have no sense that he interferes with us daily or actually at all. Probably does not need to since most of us have the soul created by god to guide the biological creature at the higher level, conscience, morality, spiritually."

If a person can't understand any of this, then there probably isn't any other Specific way to communicate the idea, indeed there are probably those that never feel the presents of the the soul so words do not work well in describing that which they do not have.
 
crowTrobot said:
No it's correct. If you define Christianity as belief in Jesus then the Bible is the result of that belief, both as individual books and later as what was deemed worthy of the Canon.
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Well I am not a Christian but I do know the books Old Testament is lifted from the Jewish Torah. Then the New Testament are for the most part written by the Disciples of Jesus.
The first Ecumenical Council defined the Cannon, the books to include in the Bible. And so the teachings of Jesus became Christianity for a period. It no longer exists in unity only as
a plethora of different churches. Even so, nothing in the old testament must be accepted to be a Christian. At best it is collection of stories that reflect the history leading to Jesus as
seen by the Jews.
 
MarAzul said:
I thought I might try a little more to explain what is meant by the Soul since some seem so intent on discounting the concept. But I really can't.
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Because you aren't actually conceptualizing anything.

If a person can't understand any of this, then there probably isn't any other Specific way to communicate the idea, indeed there are probably those that never feel the presents of the soul so words do not work well in describing that which they do not have.
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This is pretty standard religious/cult double speak. The experience always seems to be conveniently impossible to describe to someone who hasn't had it.
 
MarAzul said:
Soul is defined in the English language and I think it is so for Christians.

"The immaterial part of a person; the actuating cause of an individual life"
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So then we have to conclude that the Virgin Mary had no soul.

Was it because she was a virgin? Or some other reason?

barfo
 
MarAzul said:
. Even so, nothing in the old testament must be accepted to be a Christian. At best it is collection of stories that reflect the history leading to Jesus as
seen by the Jews.
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Naw, Mar. The entire book is needed to have a complete understanding. Yeah, the game changed when Jesus died for our sins. This created a new covenant with mankind.
 
crowTrobot said:
Yet you believe Christianity is specifically true and other religions are necessarily false.
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Many people say that, but they dont take the time to consider the difference between true, biblical christianity, and religion. I hate all religion, especially the brand that calls itself christianity but wants nothing to do with the real message and likes to twist the words to take advantage of emotionally damaged people. I can see why jesus flipped over the merchants tables, one of a standard atheists favorite examples of jesus "sinning." Though the apologist in me says anger is not a sin, there is righteous anger. It should make you mad when someone suicide bombs a market with innocent people for example. It's wrong.

Its not that I believe my "religion" is right and others are wrong. It's that I believe all religion is wrong.

Study other religions, including the modern versions of christianity, you will find they all require you DO something. From jihad to enter paradise, to meditating on nothingness until you reach nirvana, all religion says DO. Reading the bible however, you learn Christ fulfilled the DO for you, and therefore your religion is DONE. There is no need for religion, and that was ultimately why I chose to believe. I can dig freebies, I cant get on board with passing offering plates, protesting gays, singing shitty songs, flopping on the floor, tax exempt building projects, and tax exempt paid preachers however.
 
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