Anfernee Simons is unbelievable

[illmatic99]

Let's think about it the other way. Has there ever been a team with two stars that could both get their own shot, create for others, and stretch the floor as well as Dame and Ant? I'd say no. You get two of the three with the Steph and Klay, and Klay's defense outweighs Ant's shot creation/distribution probably, but I think we can create something unique.

And to add, two guys who both have to be trapped 25-30 feet from the basket. It's a nice problem to have.

 

[wizenheimer]

I'm sorry for this moment of weakness because I am trying to just let things happen with our team and see what it becomes but can someone name me one great championship team who had their top two players that were even close to redundant? I mean, just find me one. Ant is not a solid defender and he is much better with the ball in his hands than he is off the ball on offense. He's small. I just don't know. We'll see how it looks at some point, I'm sure of that but I don't like how it feels like it's going to be.

you might need to define redundant. Thomas and Dumars were redundant in many ways. Jordan and Pippen were quite redundant. Giannis and Middleton have redundant skills. Kawhi and Siakam

obviously though we're mostly talking about elite talent with those pairings. Here's the thing though, Portland's two most talented players are Dame and Ant. Dame has elite talent, yet you and others want to trade him away for the hope, that somehow, someway, that will end up with Portland having two players around Dame's current talent level. And part of that is the apparent absolute conviction that Ant will be one of them, which is itself a giant leap of faith greater than any scenario with Dame

the Trade-Dame-To-Get-Better-Idea makes no sense to me and it never has. Over the next 2-4 years, I'm convinced the best chance Portland has to contend is with Dame, not without him. Blazers would not be a contender with Ant and Jaylen Brown or Ant and Simmons....and that boat has sailed anyway.

Portland is not going to get the godfather package for Dame some of you think. It just won't happen, at least not between now and the start of next season, and after that isn't likely either. What they would get is a purgatory package. Good enough to keep Portland locked into that zone of low-level draft picks and 5th-8th seeds

I remember, around 2015-16 when CJ won MIP and had just burst onto the scene, much like Ant now, a lot of voices were advocating trading Dame and building a team around CJ. Yes, that happened. How would that have worked out? How much contending would Portland have done in the last 6 years?

whatever template for a championship you can imagine, redundant skills or not, the one essential ingredient is elite talent. Portland has one. They have an elite #1. They need an elite #2. They aren't going to contend with a elite #2 and a #3

 

[handiman]

I remember, around 2015-16 when CJ won MIP and had just burst onto the scene, much like Ant now, a lot of voices were advocating trading Dame and building a team around CJ. Yes, that happened. How would that have worked out? How much contending would Portland have done in the last 6 years?

Certainly not any less than ended up happening.

 

[illmatic99]

Dame in 2022 is a much better player than he was in 2016, fwiw.

 

[boredinsalem]

And to add, two guys who both have to be trapped 25-30 feet from the basket. It's a nice problem to have.

Yeah, I think that it probably makes sense to go more toward a dribble-drive type of offense when both of them are in (like the Clippers used with both Kawhi and George), and look to pick n roll with Nurk (and Hart as a secondary playmaker) when either of them are out. It's one of the reasons I wouldn't mind Ant off the bench getting 30 mpg and closing games, but maybe that's not practical. I see all of these combos working well.

Lillard or Simons/Hart/Little/Nurkic - lots of pick n roll
Lillard/Simons/Little - With Lillard and Simons on the floor (and their ability to drive n kick) you don't really need any other ballhandling or guys that are great at setting picks so long as you have adequate spacing (I think we'd be looking for defenders/OK floor spacers that are great at switching). CJ could never provide that for us because he didn't get to the rim and, largely as a result, his playmaking was total shit. Would love to take a flyer on Mo Bamba with MLE as I think he could wreak havoc for 18 mpg behind Nurk with a defined role.

The big question is finding a 4 that would fit with both styles. Jerami Grant/John Collins are obvious choices (especially if Nurk improves shooting) that could be available. I like Justise Winslow in a limited role as well (as long as there is enough shooting on the floor).

 

[KSF-ERIC]

I'm sorry for this moment of weakness because I am trying to just let things happen with our team and see what it becomes but can someone name me one great championship team who had their top two players that were even close to redundant? I mean, just find me one. Ant is not a solid defender and he is much better with the ball in his hands than he is off the ball on offense. He's small. I just don't know. We'll see how it looks at some point, I'm sure of that but I don't like how it feels like it's going to be.

The 2018 Rockets had Paul and Harden. They finished 65-17 and were up 3-2 over the Warriors when Paul got hurt.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

Don't know if this has already been posted. Anfernee wants to 100% stay in Portland:

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/265956/Anfernee-Simons-I-100-perc-Want-To-Stay-In-Portland

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

Don't know if this has already been posted. Anfernee wants to 100% stay in Portland:

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/265956/Anfernee-Simons-I-100-perc-Want-To-Stay-In-Portland

Did the article say that he wants $24 million a year? This is my prediction of what some other team will offer him. 4 years / $100 million. And when that deal ends, he’s only 26 years old! Blazers blew it by not extending him earlier.

 

[blazerkor]

you might need to define redundant. Thomas and Dumars were redundant in many ways. Jordan and Pippen were quite redundant. Giannis and Middleton have redundant skills. Kawhi and Siakam

obviously though we're mostly talking about elite talent with those pairings. Here's the thing though, Portland's two most talented players are Dame and Ant. Dame has elite talent, yet you and others want to trade him away for the hope, that somehow, someway, that will end up with Portland having two players around Dame's current talent level. And part of that is the apparent absolute conviction that Ant will be one of them, which is itself a giant leap of faith greater than any scenario with Dame

the Trade-Dame-To-Get-Better-Idea makes no sense to me and it never has. Over the next 2-4 years, I'm convinced the best chance Portland has to contend is with Dame, not without him. Blazers would not be a contender with Ant and Jaylen Brown or Ant and Simmons....and that boat has sailed anyway.

Portland is not going to get the godfather package for Dame some of you think. It just won't happen, at least not between now and the start of next season, and after that isn't likely either. What they would get is a purgatory package. Good enough to keep Portland locked into that zone of low-level draft picks and 5th-8th seeds

I remember, around 2015-16 when CJ won MIP and had just burst onto the scene, much like Ant now, a lot of voices were advocating trading Dame and building a team around CJ. Yes, that happened. How would that have worked out? How much contending would Portland have done in the last 6 years?

whatever template for a championship you can imagine, redundant skills or not, the one essential ingredient is elite talent. Portland has one. They have an elite #1. They need an elite #2. They aren't going to contend with a elite #2 and a #3

I don't want to trade Dame unless we end up with two incredibly gifted guys in the draft and then with those two, Ant, Nas, Hart, what we could get for Dame and some of the guys we have that have a long way to go... we might need to say that it's time for a youth rebuild. Right now my idea is to see if my suspicions are correct and due to Ant's contract situation, unless there was a sign and trade offer that knocked our socks off, these two would have until the trade deadline next season to show what they can or cannot do. At that point if this looks like the redundancies are going to be as limiting as they were with the Dame/CJ situation then I would actually want to move Ant for someone that is a better fit with Dame and the rest of the roster, not move Dame but that's now and things do change. We'll just have to see how it goes.

As for finding that redundant championship duo. Thomas and Dumars weren't both initiators of offense, despite Dumars's size he was a very similar player to Klay. Jordan and Pippen being redundant is funny, since Pippen was never a score first player and was a swiss army knife while Jordan was a stone cold assassin. Giannis and Middleton are completely different because Middleton is a shooter and perimeter defender while I guess you could say parts of anyone's game are redundant with Giannis's because he pretty much does everything but the dude is a big, while Middleton is a wing and Giannis is definitely not the outside shooter Middleton is. Kawhi and Siakam are the most similar of this group except for the fact that Kawhi was at the time a far better go to scorer, also Kawhi is naturally a perimeter player while Siakam has the versatility to play in the post as a big.

As far as the entry from @KSF-ERIC goes I don't know if you can get two elite guards that are more different than CP3 and Harden, while both can initiate an offense at an elite level Harden looks to score first and pass second while Paul is the exact opposite and Harden is a decent defender while Paul is elite. Also why in the hell are we even discussing CP3 and Harden? I didn't want excuses for why a tandem didn't win a championship let alone a conference final.

And speaking on defense, every single player mentioned above is levels above either of our guys on that end of the floor, in fact with the exception of Harden (who was in the tandem that didn't meet the singular criteria I was asking for) they're all extremely elite defenders... none of these players have redundancy of weakness like our two guys seem to and have had at this point. Again maybe they'll make me look like a fool and I hope they will. I don't at all mind being wrong when me being wrong means our team is better.

 

[wizenheimer]

I don't want to trade Dame .

great..then let's trade Simons

 

[blazerkor]

great..then let's trade Simons

Yeah, that's the idea as far as I'm concerned right now. If someone were to blow us away (and I guess they'd also have to do the same for Ant and his reps) with a sign and trade offer that got us back equal value for Ant with a player or players that make sense with Chauncey and Dame then that wouldn't be bad. More likely if Dame and Ant can't coexist like I'm assuming then you trade Ant for a better fit at the deadline.

 

[wizenheimer]

Yeah, that's the idea as far as I'm concerned right now. If someone were to blow us away (and I guess they'd also have to do the same for Ant and his reps) with a sign and trade offer that got us back equal value for Ant with a player or players that make sense with Chauncey and Dame then that wouldn't be bad. More likely if Dame and Ant can't coexist like I'm assuming then you trade Ant for a better fit at the deadline.

unless Portland totally shits the bed next season, I think next year's trade deadline is too arbitrary. Blazers gave Dame/CJ 7 seasons; they should give Dame/Ant at least 1 season including a shot at the playoffs

besides that, going in the 2023 off-season, Simons won't be BYC anymore so if the option is to trade him instead of Dame, it will be much easier

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

Yeah, that's the idea as far as I'm concerned right now. If someone were to blow us away (and I guess they'd also have to do the same for Ant and his reps) with a sign and trade offer that got us back equal value for Ant with a player or players that make sense with Chauncey and Dame then that wouldn't be bad. More likely if Dame and Ant can't coexist like I'm assuming then you trade Ant for a better fit at the deadline.

Ant is the future; Dame should be traded for a haul not seen before. It’s business is all. Let’s see if a team wants to blow us away with a package for Dame!

 

[TBpup]

Ant is the future; Dame should be traded for a haul not seen before. It’s business is all. Let’s see if a team wants to blow us away with a package for Dame!

If James Harden gets you Ben Simmons, Seth Curry, Andre Drummond and 2 1st round Draft picks, what would Dame bring back? That is quite a haul the Nets got bigger.

 

[wizenheimer]

Ant is the future; Dame should be traded for a haul not seen before. It’s business is all. Let’s see if a team wants to blow us away with a package for Dame!

Powell and RoCo were traded for a haul not seen before; so was CJ

 

[blazerkor]

unless Portland totally shits the bed next season, I think next year's trade deadline is too arbitrary. Blazers gave Dame/CJ 7 seasons; they should give Dame/Ant at least 1 season including a shot at the playoffs

besides that, going in the 2023 off-season, Simons won't be BYC anymore so if the option is to trade him instead of Dame, it will be much easier

Almost every season we gave Dame/CJ was a huge mistake... and now you want to make the same mistake? I think we've seen what it looks like when pieces fit together after this trade deadline. It doesn't take a year plus to figure out if pieces fit. So we need to figure out if Dame and Ant can work together and then make the right move as soon as possible.

 

[wizenheimer]

If James Harden gets you Ben Simmons, Seth Curry, Andre Drummond and 2 1st round Draft picks, what would Dame bring back? That is quite a haul the Nets got bigger.

"quite a haul"...really? Doesn't look that great to me

* to start with the two picks are a 23rd or 24th pick this year, and a protected 1st in 2027/28

* Drummond is a C playing for a vet minimum. Lots of those available. He's no prize at all

Dame/Ant/Hart is a much better guard rotation than Ant/Curry/Hart

so essentially you've downgraded your backcourt in order to trade Dame for Simmons and a pair of inconsequential 1st's

 

[wizenheimer]

It doesn't take a year plus to figure out if pieces fit.

if Dame doesn't play this season, there won't be a "year plus", it would only be 4 months till the deadline

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

Powell and RoCo were traded for a haul not seen before; so was CJ

i may alone in this assessment, but we easily won BOTH trades! Not even close. We FINALLY moved CJ (non AllStar) and his bloated contract, an injury-prone Nance and got back a player in Hart.

And I’ll RoCo was a free agent and quite honestly, I prefer Winslow over what Powell was offering us. And Ingles will be a Blazer next year! Maybe we move Bledsoe and other filler and go after a 6-10 Power Forward monster - an Enforcer type to add some beast to Chauncey’s defense!

I like the Watford extension as well.

 

[blazerkor]

i may alone in this assessment, but we easily won BOTH trades! Not even close. We FINALLY moved CJ (non AllStar) and his bloated contract, an injury-prone Nance and got back a player in Hart.

And I’ll RoCo was a free agent and quite honestly, I prefer Winslow over what Powell was offering us. And Ingles will be a Blazer next year! Maybe we move Bledsoe and other filler and go after a 6-10 Power Forward monster - an Enforcer type to add some beast to Chauncey’s defense!

I like the Watford extension as well.

The CJ/Larry trade was a gamble, if the pick conveys for this draft then we got close to fair value in it. Hart is a good pick up and if that pick lands between 5-12... that will be fine.

Right now RoCo is helping the Clippers get wins and he's not just some expiring contract he's a player that the Clippers who don't give a fuck about luxury tax have bird rights to and they'll probably re-sign him at a lower salary than he is making this year but not a salary they could have given him if they didn't have his bird rights and RoCo wasn't the piece that I think they were most excited about.

They got Norm, Norm's contract might be long but every year of it is team friendly for what he brings. He'll likely get a ton of minutes for them next season and makes them closer to a contender than they were before the trade. Norm is the best player in that trade and RoCo is the second best.

Justise is a nice glue guy and who knows if Keon will be any good but they traded a rookie that was barely getting any time at all mostly because a guy they drafted behind him was outperforming him and a guy they were giving 13 minutes a game to for a guy they are giving 20 minutes a game to right now and a guy who they have said is a big part of their future when he gets healthy. They didn't have any cap flexibility next season to begin with so they didn't give up anything even though we got some. So they get two guys who can get big minutes on a contender and we didn't.

The fact is we solidly lost the Clippers trade... objectively. There's just no way to know if we could have gotten closer to the deal being fair by picking up a conditional future first or something like that because Cronin pulled the trigger on the deal 9 days before the deadline. So maybe a deal with the same players involved could have been a good one if we would have held out for more draft assets or maybe and most likely we could have just got more for those two guys from other teams. There's a reason good GMs push these deals to the last minute to try and squeeze everything they can out of them.

You aren't alone though in thinking that the trades were good, there are a few of you in here that refuse to acknowledge for some reason that we gave up far more than we took back. That's not to say that Cronin can't build a great team out of what he left himself with (flexibility, possibly an extra lottery pick and a couple of good role players on good contracts for the roles they play). It's just that he should have got more from the Clippers... it's that simple. It was his first trade and he blew it and I guarantee you that the Clippers front office knew that they fleeced a brand new GM.

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

The CJ/Larry trade was a gamble, if the pick conveys for this draft then we got close to fair value in it. Hart is a good pick up and if that pick lands between 5-12... that will be fine.

Right now RoCo is helping the Clippers get wins and he's not just some expiring contract he's a player that the Clippers who don't give a fuck about luxury tax have bird rights to and they'll probably re-sign him at a lower salary than he is making this year but not a salary they could have given him if they didn't have his bird rights and RoCo wasn't the piece that I think they were most excited about.

They got Norm, Norm's contract might be long but every year of it is team friendly for what he brings. He'll likely get a ton of minutes for them next season and makes them closer to a contender than they were before the trade. Norm is the best player in that trade and RoCo is the second best.

Justise is a nice glue guy and who knows if Keon will be any good but they traded a rookie that was barely getting any time at all mostly because a guy they drafted behind him was outperforming him and a guy they were giving 13 minutes a game to for a guy they are giving 20 minutes a game to right now and a guy who they have said is a big part of their future when he gets healthy. They didn't have any cap flexibility next season to begin with so they didn't give up anything even though we got some. So they get two guys who can get big minutes on a contender and we didn't.

The fact is we solidly lost the Clippers trade... objectively. There's just no way to know if we could have gotten closer to the deal being fair by picking up a conditional future first or something like that because Cronin pulled the trigger on the deal 9 days before the deadline. So maybe a deal with the same players involved could have been a good one if we would have held out for more draft assets or maybe and most likely we could have just got more for those two guys from other teams. There's a reason good GMs push these deals to the last minute to try and squeeze everything they can out of them.

You aren't alone though in thinking that the trades were good, there are a few of you in here that refuse to acknowledge for some reason that we gave up far more than we took back. That's not to say that Cronin can't build a great team out of what he left himself with (flexibility, possibly an extra lottery pick and a couple of good role players on good contracts for the roles they play). It's just that he should have got more from the Clippers... it's that simple. It was his first trade and he blew it and I guarantee you that the Clippers front office knew that they fleeced a brand new GM.

No, we got rid of RoCo (no cap hold) and we moved Powell because he doesn’t fit; freeing up
Space for us to re-sign Nurkic and Ant.

Come on gang, Powell and RoCo are NOT great players - so we moved on and we now can build around Dame/Ant/Nurkic

 

[blazerkor]

No, we got rid of RoCo (no cap hold) and we moved Powell because he doesn’t fit; freeing up
Space for us to re-sign Nurkic and Ant.

Come on gang, Powell and RoCo are NOT great players - so we moved on and we now can build around Dame/Ant/Nurkic

I don't know about Nurk because he's not restricted but with Dame here he seemed like a pretty good bet for re-signing, Simons is a RFA and we had their bird rights plus Dame is locked up for two more seasons. So regardless of if Powell and RoCo are GREAT players or if they fit our system or personnel they are valuable players in this league and we didn't need to free up shit, our asshole ownership group might have said that they didn't want to pay tax but even when cutting salary you don't have to give a valuable player on an expiring contract and a valuable player on a very team friendly contract away for far less valuable players and nothing else in return. It's also important to remember when talking about all of the money we freed up for Ant and Nurk that the huge amount of cap space we freed up for next season in this Clippers deal was 6M... that's it. CJ's contract was a bad one but we managed to get Hart and either a lottery first this year or a future first for him, which isn't great but it's not the highway robbery that the Clippers pulled on us.

 

[sheed30]

Yeah, that's the idea as far as I'm concerned right now. If someone were to blow us away (and I guess they'd also have to do the same for Ant and his reps) with a sign and trade offer that got us back equal value for Ant with a player or players that make sense with Chauncey and Dame then that wouldn't be bad. More likely if Dame and Ant can't coexist like I'm assuming then you trade Ant for a better fit at the deadline.

Lmao, thanks for the laughs

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Yeah, that's the idea as far as I'm concerned right now. If someone were to blow us away (and I guess they'd also have to do the same for Ant and his reps) with a sign and trade offer that got us back equal value for Ant with a player or players that make sense with Chauncey and Dame then that wouldn't be bad. More likely if Dame and Ant can't coexist like I'm assuming then you trade Ant for a better fit at the deadline.

umm I’m at a lost for words, no way in hell do you trade your future star (preface that by saying sure maybe for a guy like Tatum but that ain’t happening) so you have your now Dame and your future in Simons. This is best case scenario every team dreams of as one superstar ages you have a new one to build around, you don’t trade him period!

 

[SlyPokerCat]

umm I’m at a lost for words, no way in hell do you trade your future star (preface that by saying sure maybe for a guy like Tatum but that ain’t happening) so you have your now Dame and your future in Simons. This is best case scenario every team dreams of as one superstar ages you have a new one to build around, you don’t trade him period!

Then move your now to help your future if they don't end up being a good fit.

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

I don't know about Nurk because he's not restricted but with Dame here he seemed like a pretty good bet for re-signing, Simons is a RFA and we had their bird rights plus Dame is locked up for two more seasons. So regardless of if Powell and RoCo are GREAT players or if they fit our system or personnel they are valuable players in this league and we didn't need to free up shit, our asshole ownership group might have said that they didn't want to pay tax but even when cutting salary you don't have to give a valuable player on an expiring contract and a valuable player on a very team friendly contract away for far less valuable players and nothing else in return. It's also important to remember when talking about all of the money we freed up for Ant and Nurk that the huge amount of cap space we freed up for next season in this Clippers deal was 6M... that's it. CJ's contract was a bad one but we managed to get Hart and either a lottery first this year or a future first for him, which isn't great but it's not the highway robbery that the Clippers pulled on us.

we’ll have to agree to disagree but the value around the league for Powell, RoCo, Nance and yes, CJ was not “homer high” - so “highway robbery” as you call it is very subjective. By getting rid of the above contracts and replacing with much less salary and a nice trade exception has tangible value (there is no subjectivity about it) and we will be able to resign Nurkic (my guess he’ll get $17 mil a year) and Simons (I’m going to predict a 4 year / $100 mil deal) which would have never worked with CJ, Powell, Nance and a have any hope at re-signing RoCo on top of that. The key, of course, will be this Summer’s ability to sign a major free agent. I’m going to bet that we will NOT and Bledsoe and Ingles just might stay Blazers next year. Still beats the bench talent we’ve had under Olshey’s reign!

 

[1 Eye Jack]

Then move your now to help your future if they don't end up being a good fit.

don’t disagree but definitely think we owe it to Dame to give it a shot this year if it looks like it won’t work then move on. You stab a loyal superstar in back like Dame and it will give this franchise a black eye they may never get rid of

 

[blazerkor]

we’ll have to agree to disagree but the value around the league for Powell, RoCo, Nance and yes, CJ was not “homer high” - so “highway robbery” as you call it is very subjective. By getting rid of the above contracts and replacing with much less salary and a nice trade exception has tangible value (there is no subjectivity about it) and we will be able to resign Nurkic (my guess he’ll get $17 mil a year) and Simons (I’m going to predict a 4 year / $100 mil deal) which would have never worked with CJ, Powell, Nance and a have any hope at re-signing RoCo on top of that. The key, of course, will be this Summer’s ability to sign a major free agent. I’m going to bet that we will NOT and Bledsoe and Ingles just might stay Blazers next year. Still beats the bench talent we’ve had under Olshey’s reign!

All of the value you pointed out was in the CJ trade. That's where we got the TPE, that's where we got far more potential cap room for next season and that's where we freed up so called room for Ant. If Bledsoe isn't playing now, he's never playing in Portland and if he does we lost cap space in that trade... like 7M. We only freed up 6M if we don't pick up the option on Bledsoe's deal. There are so many reasons why the Clippers deal was so bad... they just aren't showing because Norm broke his foot a couple of games after he got to LA but it will show next year because you have to separate the two deals.

We got Justise, Keon and either tied up 7M more for next season and keep Bledsoe who has been underwhelming for quite some time or we freed up 6M if we don't pick up Bledsoe's option, oh and a 2025 second rounder. That's what we got for two big time contributors in Norm and RoCo. They were contributing to our team and have contributed on every team they've been on... RoCo is definitely contributing in LA right now.

 

[STOMP]

Nurkic was also a top player on the team. He was doing so well they decided to give him a vacation. Nassir Little was also having a big impact at the time he was injured. I think it's too early to say Simons will be the second best player next season, even if he is the second leading scorer.

Nurk is a huuuuuge defensive liability verses many teams/lineups & Nassir has never had a stretch approaching the level of production that AS has. We're projecting whats best for the team here & it's not too early to look at the information we do have, not that it matters. We're just fans talking, those in charge will do what they do based on their framing of priorities regardless of what you and I think should be done.

STOMP

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

All of the value you pointed out was in the CJ trade. That's where we got the TPE, that's where we got far more potential cap room for next season and that's where we freed up so called room for Ant. If Bledsoe isn't playing now, he's never playing in Portland and if he does we lost cap space in that trade... like 7M. We only freed up 6M if we don't pick up the option on Bledsoe's deal. There are so many reasons why the Clippers deal was so bad... they just aren't showing because Norm broke his foot a couple of games after he got to LA but it will show next year because you have to separate the two deals.

We got Justise, Keon and either tied up 7M more for next season and keep Bledsoe who has been underwhelming for quite some time or we freed up 6M if we don't pick up Bledsoe's option, oh and a 2025 second rounder. That's what we got for two big time contributors in Norm and RoCo. They were contributing to our team and have contributed on every team they've been on... RoCo is definitely contributing in LA right now.

I think I spent a great deal in why trading away Norm and RoCo was just great!