Politics Another officer shooting/riot situation

[Sinobas]

I watched the video of the shooting. The Officers kept backing up, telling him to drop the knife. But they eventually shot him as he kept approaching.

So on one hand, I think there has to be a non-lethal way to deal with situations like this. A big cannister of pepper spray, a tazer, a tranquilizer...especially when you've got someone double teamed like that. It's almost like they didn't know what to do so they were like, "we'll shoot you so that'll be the end of that".

But on the other hand, being charged with a knife is a deadly situation. If you engage in that kind of behavior you can't really play the victim card. It's like some people don't even want to consider the situation from the officer's point of view. They make up stories about how evil cops are out to commit genocide against black men.

But oh wait, the person here was white.



http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/18/us/georgia-tech-student-killed/index.html

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Dude wasn't charging anyone. Hands were down, "knife" was not drawn, movements were slow. There was absolutely no threat to the officer's life.

I have no doubt that the officer operated within the constraints of his training and departmental policy, but that just tells me that said training/policy is crap.

 

[Sinobas]

He had that "multipurpose tool" in his hand. The officers were justified in assuming it was a knife. It's the same thing as if you've got a toy gun that looks real.

This guy was trying to get the officers to shoot him. And no, he wasn't charging at the time he was shot, but he was moving closer with a weapon in hand.

I agree with you that lethal force was not necessary in this case. But still, an officer doesn't know what kind of drugs someone is on, the guy was acting insane. Some drugs give people super human strength. So when you're being approached by someone like that the officer is justified in feeling endangered.

 

[Sinobas]

Now it's coming out, that Schultz himself called 911, and reported a guy with his description was carrying a knife and possibly a gun.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

He had that "multipurpose tool" in his hand. The officers were justified in assuming it was a knife. It's the same thing as if you've got a toy gun that looks real.

This guy was trying to get the officers to shoot him. And no, he wasn't charging at the time he was shot, but he was moving closer with a weapon in hand.

I agree with you that lethal force was not necessary in this case. But still, an officer doesn't know what kind of drugs someone is on, the guy was acting insane. Some drugs give people super human strength. So when you're being approached by someone like that the officer is justified in feeling endangered.

The multi-tool wasn't open (they showed the photo of it on the ground), no blade was extended, so there is no justification for assuming it's a knife. To use your analogy, it'd be more like seeing the outline of a toy gun in someone's pocket--even if they did believe it to be a real gun, there is nothing they could see that would demonstrate imminent threat. The "knife" is nothing more than a red herring. A ball-point pen or a car key would be more dangerous than what he was holding.

And yeah, the guy wanted to be shot, but with no legitimate brandished weapon, him moving closer should be irrelevant. And considering there were two cops, the theoretical possibility of a guy maybe being on drugs and maybe having super-human strength are not justification for a shooting a guy who was doing no more than walking.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Dude wasn't charging anyone. Hands were down, "knife" was not drawn, movements were slow. There was absolutely no threat to the officer's life.

I have no doubt that the officer operated within the constraints of his training and departmental policy, but that just tells me that said training/policy is crap.

Yeah. Looks unnecessary. The problem is what more would make it necessary. Jumping up and down in a more animated fashion? Swinging the Leatherman type tool?

Cops are being paid to do a job, not risk their life.

Tough situation. I can't say the cop should be charged but I can't say I'd encourage other cops to shoot in this situation.

 

[jonnyboy]

Did the police tell him to drop it?

 

[THE HCP]

As a Military Policeman in the Army, we were trained to shoot them in the knees. Wish civilian police would try doing this sometime.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Seems like at the very least the campus police should have to pay off his student loans.

 

[Denny Crane]

Completely needless shooting. They should have tazered the guy at most.

 

[MarAzul]

The poor dude was overly impressed with his ability to do good. A completely rational man does not put himself in harms way like this.

But here we have it again. Cops trained to enforce compliance with their commands. Big flaw in this is; It is irrational to expect rational behavior from a person acting irrationally.

Does anyone have any idea how to change this policy/training? We need a plan more effective than burning shit and dancing on police cars.

 

[MarAzul]

Different training is easy to come up with, since the guy is not immediately presenting a harm to anyone, shoot hiim with a camera and call in the guys in whites and take him with a net or
what ever.

It is the policy that is difficult, How to bring about that change. This stuff has been going down for years, and I fully expect we have more than few cops of the character type that live for the opportunity. Not most but enough that the policy must be changed.

 

[BrianFromWA]

As a Military Policeman in the Army, we were trained to shoot them in the knees. Wish civilian police would try doing this sometime.

Wow. Well, that's changed, at least in the Navy.
"Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to kill. Two to the chest, one to the head or hips." Used to be "then one to the head" but a moving smaller target is harder to hit than a pelvis, which will immediately fuck up someone's world and likely doesn't have armor on.
How did you train to hit a moving knee? No knock on you, but the average MP isn't close to good enough to hit that target.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Does anyone have any idea how to change this policy/training? We need a plan more effective than burning shit and dancing on police cars.

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/

 

[MarAzul]

Wow. Well, that's changed, at least in the Navy.

>>> In the Navy, we use to only get the baton to deal with our own.

"Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to kill.

Probably ought to keep it that way too. Ha! I remember the short training session for Shore Patrol duty, the old Chief said, referring to the Baton; Now remember, when you use this thing
you don't have to kill him! That same training will not work with a gun.

 

[BrianFromWA]

In the Navy, we use to only get the baton to deal with our own.

Post-9/11, force protection rules changed. Basically, everyone on board needs to qualify with a firearm and there are multiple armed watchstanders.

Probably ought to keep it that way too. Ha! I remember the short training session for Shore Patrol duty, the old Chief said, referring to the Baton; Now remember, when you use this thing
you don't have to kill him! That same training will not work with a gun.

 

[MarAzul]

https://www.joincampaignzero.org/

You posted that yesterday. It is still horse shit. This crap has been going on far longer than Trump

"
President Trump's administration plans to use the power of the federal government to escalate police violence and incarceration in our communities."

 

[MarAzul]

Basically, everyone on board needs to qualify with a firearm and there are multiple armed watchstanders.

Not quite the same idea though. Back in the old days, we have armed watch standers at times, But that is different than Shore Patrol keep order among your guys in ports. Specifically not caring anything but a baton. I can't say the baton in not a lethal weapon, but it can be used that way and training was such to encourage that use. I'd never suggest that use of a fire arm.

I guess I differentiate between Security watch standers and Policing your people to keep them civil. Two different missions.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I'm sure we could invent a net cannon to subdue suicidal people with. Probably already have them.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

that is different than Shore Patrón...

Is that a special Coast Guard tequila?

 

[THE HCP]

Wow. Well, that's changed, at least in the Navy.
"Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to kill. Two to the chest, one to the head or hips." Used to be "then one to the head" but a moving smaller target is harder to hit than a pelvis, which will immediately fuck up someone's world and likely doesn't have armor on.
How did you train to hit a moving knee? No knock on you, but the average MP isn't close to good enough to hit that target.

Wasn't the official training of course. Just what senior guys would tell us newbies. I never drew my weapon, glad I never had to. Used that stick a couple times to protect my partners, but that was it.

 

[MarAzul]

Is that a special Coast Guard tequila?

No, just another fuckup.

 

[Natebishop3]

There's a lot of stuff available about the danger of someone with an edged weapon within 21 feet. The last video is actually really good.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

There's a lot of stuff available about the danger of someone with an edged weapon within 21 feet. The last video is actually really good.

Thank you for these. They were certainly enlightening.

 

[Sinobas]

The multi-tool wasn't open (they showed the photo of it on the ground), no blade was extended, so there is no justification for assuming it's a knife. To use your analogy, it'd be more like seeing the outline of a toy gun in someone's pocket--even if they did believe it to be a real gun, there is nothing they could see that would demonstrate imminent threat. The "knife" is nothing more than a red herring. A ball-point pen or a car key would be more dangerous than what he was holding.

And yeah, the guy wanted to be shot, but with no legitimate brandished weapon, him moving closer should be irrelevant. And considering there were two cops, the theoretical possibility of a guy maybe being on drugs and maybe having super-human strength are not justification for a shooting a guy who was doing no more than walking.

There are fly knifes that look like an closed "multi-purpose tool". An he wasn't holding it out for them to examing in good lighting.

If you don't drop your weapon, even if you're just pretending it's a weapon, it'll be viewed by the officer as signaling hostile intent, as will continuing to approach an officer with that weapon in hand when they tell you to stop. Scout was intentionally trying to get them to shoot him.

I wouldn't expect an officer to not react in self defense, just in case their assailant is bluffing. They can't afford to take that gamble. Would you if it were your own skin on the line?

In this case, the officer that shot him could have continued to back up though, just like the officer did in the middle of the frame. I heard a report that they did not have tasers....so maybe they were not armed with pepper spray either, but having no non-lethal options is a problem.

 

[Sinobas]

There's a lot of stuff available about the danger of someone with an edged weapon within 21 feet. The last video is actually really good.

Yes, this is true, of course, it is a bit of a different ball game if the officer already has their gun trained on him.

But many people in general, underestimate the danger of a knife. In movies, and in self defense classes for that matter, people make long awkward swiping motions with a knife which are easy to dodge.

This is what a real knife attack is like:

 

[Sinobas]

Another thing law enforcement has to keep in mind is that their rounds are not necessarily going to stop someone dead in their tracks. That's the way it works in the movies, you shoot someone and the crumple to the ground and die, but if someone is whacked out and charging at them they can deliver some life threatening blows even after being shot in certain places.

I mean...the message that gets lost in these incidents, is don't fuck with the police. If they believe you are armed, and they are telling you to stop or whatever, just fucking do what they say. Don't mess around.

 

[Chris Craig]

Seems like at the very least the campus police should have to pay off his student loans.

Hes dead, his loans die with him

 

[Chris Craig]

Yes, this is true, of course, it is a bit of a different ball game if the officer already has their gun trained on him.

But many people in general, underestimate the power of a knife. In movies, and in self defense classes for that matter, people make long awkward swiping motions with a knife which are easy to dodge.

This is what a real knife attack is like:

Depending on whose weilding a knifeand the elememt of surprise it can be just as dangerous as a gun. See the guys who got stabbed to death by the crazy guy on the max

That said, this guy was several feet away, and his blade wasn't drawn. If the cop saw it, there was no elemement of surprise and if he were properly trained he could could have easily sidestepped a coming swipe, disarmed, and disabled the suspect. Too, the guy called in saying he was suicidal. These university security guards aren't trained for such confrontations. Probably more panicking going on then thinking

 

[Denny Crane]

No doubt the good outcome is the guy lived.

Any other outcome is bad police work. In this case.