I know some states have laws as to how soon after vacating landlords are required to give statements regarding how much of your deposit they plan on retaining and for what reason. Does that typically apply to notifying you of damages they intend to hold you accountable for? I paid a nonrefundable "redecorating fee" of $300 when I moved in, so I wasn't looking for a deposit to be returned. What I did get, however, was a statement claiming I owed about $1200 in damages 109 days after I vacated. I wrote them a letter when I got the bill objecting to different items as being normal wear and tear, pre-existing damages, and I have no idea what you're referring to. I got no response. Sent another letter about a month and a half after that with no response. Today I have a police officer show up at my door to serve me with a notice that they've taken me to small claims court in a city 5.5 hours away. Any suggestions?
Anyone have experience dealing with landlord/tenant disputes?
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EL PRESIDENTE
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Countersue for what? For the $300 decorating deposit?
We've been on the other side. Tennents trashed a rental property, left all their shit there, etc...had to clean it up. We sued in small claims but really never got the money even though we won.
same thing with one of my uncles....sued someone who fucked up his hardwood flooring.
If you have no documentation as to the "pre-existing" damages, you're probably fucked.
We've been on the other side. Tennents trashed a rental property, left all their shit there, etc...had to clean it up. We sued in small claims but really never got the money even though we won.
same thing with one of my uncles....sued someone who fucked up his hardwood flooring.
If you have no documentation as to the "pre-existing" damages, you're probably fucked.
I have documentation for the items I believe to be pre-existing, but they're claiming other damages as well. I've looked at counterclaiming, but like El Presidente said, for what? I don't think I can counter sue for my time away from work or the travel expenses to get back and forth to Spokane. I just have to fight this to avoid shelling out $1200 (now $1600). I have to eat the expenses of fighting it. That's the part that sucks the most.
EL PRESIDENTE
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What kind of documentation do you have?
When they sent you the $1200 bill, did they itemize the damages with dated estimates or dated photographs? Did you do a final walk through with them after you moved out?
In court I would push for dated estimates done IMMEDIATELY at the termination of your lease. If there was a lapse between or there is no documentation of the damage estimates directly after your lease expired, then push on that big-time and emphasize that any lapse in between, even if there was no occupancy of the unit is not your responsibility and anything could have happened in that timeframe. The burden is on them to prove that the damage existed immediately after you vacated.
It is strange you did not pay a deposit for damages upon moving in though. That's pretty standard, and truthfully, the painting and carpet, etc would have eaten that up pretty well. How much was your monthly rent?
When they sent you the $1200 bill, did they itemize the damages with dated estimates or dated photographs? Did you do a final walk through with them after you moved out?
In court I would push for dated estimates done IMMEDIATELY at the termination of your lease. If there was a lapse between or there is no documentation of the damage estimates directly after your lease expired, then push on that big-time and emphasize that any lapse in between, even if there was no occupancy of the unit is not your responsibility and anything could have happened in that timeframe. The burden is on them to prove that the damage existed immediately after you vacated.
It is strange you did not pay a deposit for damages upon moving in though. That's pretty standard, and truthfully, the painting and carpet, etc would have eaten that up pretty well. How much was your monthly rent?
EL PRESIDENTE
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the problem for you is the wording of your letter you sent back to them. never admit anything, even "normal wear and tear". You will need a copy of your original lease and look for the wording used in respect to the damages. You need to be prepared with documentation you can quickly give to the judge.
I have the carbon copy of the condition report when we moved in. We didn't do a move-out inspection because the manager claimed she couldn't do it when we moved out and we were moving from Spokane to Portland, so waiting the 3 days she wanted wasn't an option. The bill is itemized and dated, but no photos. The damages were added to my account more than 3 weeks after I moved out. But I didn't get the bill until 109 days after I moved out.
Rent was $700 a month.
EL PRESIDENTE
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Would waiting the 3 days be past the termination of your lease?
I would perhaps argue that she waived her right to the final inspection of your unit due to her unavailability and when your lease ended you were absolved of any liability, especially in light of damages and conditions being noted a full 3 weeks after you had ended the lease.
Try to get as much documentation of that if possible. How much time until the trial?
I would perhaps argue that she waived her right to the final inspection of your unit due to her unavailability and when your lease ended you were absolved of any liability, especially in light of damages and conditions being noted a full 3 weeks after you had ended the lease.
Try to get as much documentation of that if possible. How much time until the trial?
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Admitting to normal wear and tear was a secondary argument to the initial statement that they were claiming phantom damages. "Even if such a condition existed, it would have been normal wear and tear." I get what you're saying though. I've been collecting all my papers and going through photos of the apartment as close to the day we moved out as possible. I was pretty nieve and didn't take photos to document the condition of the apartment because we thought it looked pretty good. I didn't think they were going to try to screw us over since we had been good tenants for 3 years...
No. We moved out in the middle of the month, so technically we had the lease until the end of the month. The "damage" was documented on our bill more than 3 weeks after we vacated and over a week after the lease ended (6/9/11), but we weren't sent the bill until 9/2/11.
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maxiep
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I don't know Washington law, but in Oregon I'm required to return your security deposit with any damages subtracted in an itemized fashion. If I don't return your security deposit within 30 days, I'm liable for TWICE the security deposit plus something like $200.
Read through this link and find out your rights: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18
Read through this link and find out your rights: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18
EL PRESIDENTE
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EL PRESIDENTE
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ok, you might be screwed then.
Ha! Too much post editing. We keep getting portions of each other's posts. Optional mediation is Monday 1/2 and court is 1/11.
EL PRESIDENTE
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are the landlords douchebags? do they lose their temper easily or are they pretty by the book?
Yeah, I know how it works if there's a security deposit (WA requires itemized notice within 14 days of vacating), but El Presidente is correct, there is no security deposit here. It's a nonrefundable "redecorating fee" that I paid. So I'm not trying to get anything back from the landlord, I'm just trying to avoid paying ridiculous damages on top of a nonrefundable fee that should be covering the crap they're charging me for.
magnifier661
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Man I am so glad I don't rent or landlord anymore. It was such a headache on both fronts
the management company is huge. They literally own something like 30 or 40% of the rental property in Spokane. I've not spoken to anyone at the management company, but the apartment complex manager seems alright. My wife had more interaction with her than I did. I talked to the previous manager a bit before he was fired, but doesn't help much here.
Both my wife and I long for that day. Don't see it happening too soon though...
EL PRESIDENTE
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oh, you're getting sued by a big management company? that sucks.
I think if you show up and argue, you can probably get half of it forgiven if you're good enough in front of the judge. they're probably buddy-buddy with the mediators, I'd probably avoid that.
I think if you show up and argue, you can probably get half of it forgiven if you're good enough in front of the judge. they're probably buddy-buddy with the mediators, I'd probably avoid that.
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curious, what are the damages and how much for each? is it a long list? what are the major ones?
magnifier661
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Im really sorry... I hope you get there soon
This is what they have listed as they listed it (I added the parenthetical information as my own commentary):
Repair carpet throughout stains and burns - $555 (2 clean non-smoking adults living there for 3 years and I cleaned the carpets about a year before vacating.
-Avista (Electricity) 5/18/11 - 5/31/11 - $13.72 (Apparently we racked up that much of a bill after having vacated on 5/16/11 and owe for the electricity they use to clean up the place.)
-Repair vinyl floor entry (8 in scratch) - $75 (listed in move-in condition report)
-Repair kitchen countertop chipped - $75 (Scratches listed on move-in condition report, but I don't recall any chips)
-Drywall repair excessive nail/screws - $100 (About 48 total holes 15 of which were from putting up curtain rods)
-Replace closet door 4 nails and scratched - $55 (Don't know what they're talking about here. Never put nails in any door)
-Replace damaged door bathroom wht plastic - $55 (Might be referring to a robe hook that was there when we moved in, but I don't know.)
-Processing Fee - PCR at possession - $228.75 (25% fee tacked on to whatever bill they decide we owe.)
TOTAL - 1,157.47: DUE 9/30/11
Strangely, the small claims court notice we got says we owe $1600 not $1,157.47 and that became due on 9/15/11 and not 9/30/11 and that we owe that amount for our Avista utilities, but no other items are listed like property damages.
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EL PRESIDENTE
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probably court costs and process server estimation and employee time to go down there, which they probably can't get but they'll try.
the charges don't seem excessive to me and I think you'll have a hard time arguing to get them written off, you MAY be able to get them reduced. They probably installed new carpet on your dime.
in all honesty, you may have an easier time offering them money to drop it, maybe half, but it'll probably end up being 75%. It'll save you the trouble of going there and paying what you'll eventually be paying. the big problem is you didn't have a move-out inspection so you can't dispute anything unless its listed on your move in inspection list.
the charges don't seem excessive to me and I think you'll have a hard time arguing to get them written off, you MAY be able to get them reduced. They probably installed new carpet on your dime.
in all honesty, you may have an easier time offering them money to drop it, maybe half, but it'll probably end up being 75%. It'll save you the trouble of going there and paying what you'll eventually be paying. the big problem is you didn't have a move-out inspection so you can't dispute anything unless its listed on your move in inspection list.
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magnifier661
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Did you make the stains and burns? Did you specify stains or burns on the carpet on the initial walk through? If you have them on the initial, then say those are the same stains and burns that were on the initial walk through. If they don't have a signed "walk through" stating new ones, then they can't charge you for it.
Also look at this...
Another thing you can do is call carpet cleaning companies in that area and get quotes on the carpet. If they charged 555, yet you got quotes of 150-200, then the judge may reduce that bill. But I wouldn't bring that up until you know that the judge will not accept the first argument that those stains and burns were already there.
magnifier661
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Here is another link Residential landlord-tenant act
You need these actual statutes in court. Gotta look them up and have them ready. Because some judges won't even admit that law unless you actually say that law on record.
You need these actual statutes in court. Gotta look them up and have them ready. Because some judges won't even admit that law unless you actually say that law on record.
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The carpet did not require replacement, it barely required cleaning except for the high traffic areas. Plus, the bill stated that it was repaired and not replaced. I get what you're saying though. Cut my losses even though the damages are bogus. I think I'm too stubborn for that. At this point, I think I'd rather battle it out in small claims court (no attorney's fees) then try to settle for anything close to half that amount. 25% of it is just a dumb processing fee! Who knows. Maybe I'll get more data and get less emotional about it and suck it up and take the screw job.
Thanks, Mags. I've looked at all the stuff you've linked to so far. I've been at this for a little bit now.
I looked up stuff when I got the bill in September and have been looking up stuff since the Sheriff came at around 1 pm yesterday (Wednesday). When I sent my response to the bill in September I cited a few RCW sections. I guess they weren't impressed...
EL PRESIDENTE
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Yeah. I'd probably fight it too, but its a lot of time and expense to travel back there, lodging, food, etc. I'd find every minor violation and report them to the housing authority. Also, smear them online, every rent.com review board, submit unique complaints about this entire process after its settled, start blogs, etc.
Also, do a google search on the property management company and see if there are other similar instances of similar problems.
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