Anyone know why Muslims hate being photographed?

[MarAzul]

You're confusing me with someone else. I've done both.

Oh, it isn't apparent in your "poor down trodden soles" speech that discounts religion having any bearing.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Brown people, what's their deal anyway

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Oh, it isn't apparent in your "poor down trodden soles" speech that discounts religion having any bearing.

Religion certainly does have a bearing. It's what we've been discussing this entire time. My goal with that post was to give some other ideas about what goes on in that part of the world. All the while, you're displaying animosity towards the presentation of additional factors to a situation you want to boil down to stereotype.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Religion certainly does have a bearing. It's what we've been discussing this entire time. My goal with that post was to give some other ideas about what goes on in that part of the world. All the while, you're displaying animosity towards the presentation of additional factors to a situation you want to boil down to stereotype.

while that may be the case, you seem to keep persisting on a sunshine and bunny rabbits approach. You derive your opinions through academia while some of us develop our opinions through those that have served in that shit hole area and fought against some of the very people that we were trying to help. Those who have lived along side the people you find so honorable have as a people proven to be otherwise by western standards.

You keep believing what you want, hell, 51 percent of the population does....enjoy your delusion

 

[maxiep]

You didn't used to be such a condescending dickhole.

Just explaining my change in attitude.

I'll rephrase. Given the dominating economic policies of the west, it's difficult for many people around the world to hold the opinion that America simply wants people to live in peace and prosperity.

Ah, yes. In my day, that bullshit theory was called "The Devil's Theory of Imperialism". Oil-rich countries in the Middle East seem to me to have done pretty well under those so-called "dominating economic policies of the West". And the ones that embraced more socialistic/nationalistic policies (i.e. Baathist or Nasserist) have suffered mightily. Allowing people to live free to make their own choices while respecting basic human rights is hardly imperialistic. And please don't talk to me about our support for dictators in the past. The transitioning to democracy we created in Iraq and Afghanistan--while imperfect--are hardly the policies we pursued with the Shah or the House of Saud.

Wow. And you're accusing me of being in an ivory tower? This reeks of bitter old man who the world is leaving behind, clinging to your alma mater where the "real" intellectuals were. So much wank.

Not at all. I was just mocking your embrace of your particular ivory tower. It's not an environment to which I haven't been exposed. There are all sorts of ivory towers out there; some taller and better built than others.

Just so long it's the conclusion you have also come to, because you are morally superior and I am not a "real" intellectual. Just so we've got this straight.

Sigh. So sad. I was just saying that I am making a judgment about a religion that treats half their population as second-class citizens. So, if we choose to use your term, I guess my outlook on gender equality does make me morally superior. And you were the one who ran for the cover of being an "intellectual" rather than having a real debate. I was simply offering a gentle reminder that others can hold different views and still not be knuckle-draggers. Don't be pissed at me that my bullshit academic credentials are superior to your bullshit academic credentials.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

while that may be the case, you seem to keep persisting on a sunshine and bunny rabbits approach. You derive your opinions through academia while some of us develop our opinions through those that have served in that shit hole area and fought against some of the very people that we were trying to help. Those who have lived along side the people you find so honorable have as a people proven to be otherwise by western standards.

You keep believing what you want, hell, 51 percent of the population does....enjoy your delusion

I'm trying to get people to think about the problems in MENA outside of the very limited scope of terrorism and/or Islamic radicalism. That's all I'm doing. And you say I'm focusing on "sunshine and bunny rabbits" and MarAzul calls it a "poor down trodden soles" speech. Get a grip, guys.

My background is in academia. I've lived in the Middle East, I've lived in North Africa. I've seen the problems, I've talked to the people. No, I haven't been to war. Why is it that you're forming your opinions solely from a combat perspective is beyond me. All I'm asking is that you at least acknowledge that there are other points of view on this matter than terrorism and/or radicalism and/or war.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Just explaining my change in attitude.

You explained nothing. You just made some vague statement that you revised your opinions based on your experiences and jeez you should really try it some time.

Ah, yes. In my day, that bullshit theory was called "The Devil's Theory of Imperialism". Oil-rich countries in the Middle East seem to me to have done pretty well under those so-called "dominating economic policies of the West". And the ones that embraced more socialistic/nationalistic policies (i.e. Baathist or Nasserist) have suffered mightily. Allowing people to live free to make their own choices while respecting basic human rights is hardly imperialistic. And please don't talk to me about our support for dictators in the past. The transitioning to democracy we created in Iraq and Afghanistan--while imperfect--are hardly the policies we pursued with the Shah or the House of Saud.

I wasn't referring to war, I was referring to the dominating economic policies of the West. Ask the farmers in India who have been forced off their land due to policies written by the IMF and the World Bank if we want them to live in happiness and prosperity.

And yes, oil rich nations have done great. They've played the game perfectly. They have capital to spare and their people are healthy and-- oh wait, no, they are run on slave labor. But that's okay, we'll still do business.

Not at all. I was just mocking your embrace of your particular ivory tower. It's not an environment to which I haven't been exposed. There are all sorts of ivory towers out there; some taller and better built than others.

Oh, I didn't realize I was lionizing the school I went to when other people's informed opinions aren't the same as mine. No wait, you did that.

My ivory tower is a mud pile. I went to PSU for shits sake.

Sigh. So sad. I was just saying that I am making a judgment about a religion that treats half their population as second-class citizens. So, if we choose to use your term, I guess my outlook on gender equality does make me morally superior.

I thought we were talking about terrorism?

And you were the one who ran for the cover of being an "intellectual" rather than having a real debate. I was simply offering a gentle reminder that others can hold different views and still not be knuckle-draggers. Don't be pissed at me that my bullshit academic credentials are superior to your bullshit academic credentials.

Where did I hide behind my education? All I did was pointed out that at least I have an education on these topics. I'm all for debate. I never called anyone stupid for not thinking the way I do. All I'm trying to do here is get people to go a little deeper.

 

[riverman]

Who forgot to check credentials here anyway? One thing is for sure, where politics and religion are the same power base, fanatics get an easy toehold on the masses. (nobody is getting a peek at my credentials!)

 

[oldguy]

You simply have a flaw in your logic. A is a terrorist. B supports A. B supports terrorism. Not true.

Edit: A offers free food. B is hungry.

I'll give a degree of truth to that point, with Hamas and the Palestinians. That's somewhat offset by the celebrations we see in the streets after some Hamas assholes sets of a bomb in Israel and then sets one off to kill the emergency responders.

But, are you making a case that Al-Qaeda is feeding tens of millions of people in Indonesia? The survey I linked shows the 50% of Indonesian Muslims support OBL "to do the right thing regarding world matters." I'm not thinking that pertains to support because OBL is feeding millions of Indonesians.

So, you still saying there are only a handful of Muslims that support terrorism? Why does that seem to be a hard question for you? You made the claim, I made my case against it. Do you still believe your claim?

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

How about this, each year, whoever kills the most civilians is the new terrorist. I think we come out looking bad, but it seems like a fair metric, no?

Are we talking killing civilians after spending billions on weapons and tactics that avoid killing them, while we're fight against fighters that hide behind those civilians by using them as sheilds? Or are we refering to targeting women and children for gruelsome, painful death to make a political statement? Or, do you think that is the same thing?

Go Blazers

 

[MarAzul]

I wasn't referring to war, I was referring to the dominating economic policies of the West. Ask the farmers in India who have been forced off their land due to policies written by the IMF and the World Bank if we want them to live in happiness and prosperity.

And yes, oil rich nations have done great. They've played the game perfectly. They have capital to spare and their people are healthy and-- oh wait, no, they are run on slave labor. But that's okay, we'll still do business.

I thought we were talking about terrorism? .

Yes, we were attempting to speak about terrorism. It has been difficult to get you to do so,
but here is another chance.

Please explain what ever justification you have for how the plight the farmers in India and the IMF have combined to cause the Muslim Jihadist to attack us using their terrorist tactics.

Then, what is it you think we should be doing to prevent slave labor in the Islamic world that will
pacify the Jihadist if we would only do the deed?

 

[Denny Crane]

I'll give a degree of truth to that point, with Hamas and the Palestinians. That's somewhat offset by the celebrations we see in the streets after some Hamas assholes sets of a bomb in Israel and then sets one off to kill the emergency responders.

But, are you making a case that Al-Qaeda is feeding tens of millions of people in Indonesia? The survey I linked shows the 50% of Indonesian Muslims support OBL "to do the right thing regarding world matters." I'm not thinking that pertains to support because OBL is feeding millions of Indonesians.

So, you still saying there are only a handful of Muslims that support terrorism? Why does that seem to be a hard question for you? You made the claim, I made my case against it. Do you still believe your claim?

Go Blazers

You're making a strawman argument now. I think there may be a hundred thousand, or even two hundred, who could become radicalized under the right circumstances. Again, out of 1.7B.

The actual number of actively violent Muslims are few.

And you're still making a huge leap in your logic regarding OBL. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He was the enemy of their enemy.

 

[MarAzul]

You're making a strawman argument now. I think there may be a hundred thousand, or even two hundred, who could become radicalized under the right circumstances. Again, out of 1.7B.

The actual number of actively violent Muslims are few.

And you're still making a huge leap in your logic regarding OBL. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He was the enemy of their enemy.

I would expect the number you use wouldn't even account for the Pirates around the South China Sea or the coast of East Africa. Muslims for the most and a miserable lot of degenerates they are.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Does anyone know if Muslims taste like chicken? We could kill all of them, cook them and then feed them to starving Christian Africans. Then people who are afraid of Muslims could feel good about killing them.

 

[MarAzul]

Does anyone know if Muslims taste like chicken? We could kill all of them, cook them and then feed them to starving Christian Africans. Then people who are afraid of Muslims could feel good about killing them.

Shoot, I don't think the taste matters in your scenario.

 

[riverman]

I would expect the number you use wouldn't even account for the Pirates around the South China Sea or the coast of East Africa. Muslims for the most and a miserable lot of degenerates they are.

I agree with Denny on this one. Stereotyping Muslims first of all is never going to work because people born into geographical areas may seem to be religious by their birthright but it's like talking about Buddhists, the young go through the motions to appease grandma and grandpa but don't really believe the dogma. Mercenaries are not part of this conversation, they don't practice piracy because of Jihad, they want money. Big difference. In some places if you're young you can't express dissention in any fashion without losing your life. Kind of limits the options you know? Bottom line is that fundamentalist terrorism from militant groups is horrible and against everything we know as civil and right. It exists as do the Nazi party in this country and the KKK. In my two decades working overseas I've met many young people from all over the globe and found a lot of great young people out there breaking away from their roots and most say this will go away when the elders die off. Iran has a huge majority of the population under 30 years of age and they fly to Dubai to drink and dance and feel a part of the modern world. They, like many of these young people, have limited choices at home. We really don't so until you walk in their shoes, it's good to have some peripheral vision.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Shoot, I don't think the taste matters in your scenario.

Taste is the key component. No one likes to serve bad tasting meals. How will you feel better about yourself killing Muslims if you don't feel you're serving the most tasty thing possible?

 

[Denny Crane]

I agree with Denny on this one. Stereotyping Muslims first of all is never going to work because people born into geographical areas may seem to be religious by their birthright but it's like talking about Buddhists, the young go through the motions to appease grandma and grandpa but don't really believe the dogma. Mercenaries are not part of this conversation, they don't practice piracy because of Jihad, they want money. Big difference. In some places if you're young you can't express dissention in any fashion without losing your life. Kind of limits the options you know? Bottom line is that fundamentalist terrorism from militant groups is horrible and against everything we know as civil and right. It exists as do the Nazi party in this country and the KKK. In my two decades working overseas I've met many young people from all over the globe and found a lot of great young people out there breaking away from their roots and most say this will go away when the elders die off. Iran has a huge majority of the population under 30 years of age and they fly to Dubai to drink and dance and feel a part of the modern world. They, like many of these young people, have limited choices at home. We really don't so until you walk in their shoes, it's good to have some peripheral vision.

Better nuke Dubai before they nuke us!

 

[MarAzul]

Taste is the key component. No one likes to serve bad tasting meals. How will you feel better about yourself killing Muslims if you don't feel you're serving the most tasty thing possible?

I recall a good many years ago, a few Fleet Marines and myself managed to relieve this group folks on Banggi Island (between Palawan and Borneo) of a hostage they were holding. They wanted a little more money for the Kafir than we were offering but we managed to get it done anyway.
I think Kafir means something like Infidel. But you know, I never took the time to wonder how they would taste, it felt pretty good to bring the fella out of there. Pirates I believe, likely still in that business according to the reports I hear off the cruising net.

 

[oldguy]

You're making a strawman argument now. I think there may be a hundred thousand, or even two hundred, who could become radicalized under the right circumstances. Again, out of 1.7B.

The actual number of actively violent Muslims are few.

And you're still making a huge leap in your logic regarding OBL. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. He was the enemy of their enemy.

Ok, how about trying this from another direction?

Dalia Mogahed and John Esposito co-authored the book "Who Speaks for Islam" which grew out of a survey conducted by the Gallup polling agency and released in 2008. The authors (This is the guy you are quoting) claim only 7 percent of the world's Muslims are "political radicals" who believe the 9/11 attacks were completely justified.

Yet another 29.6 percent think the 9/11 attacks were partially or in some way justified. This takes the total world-wide percentage of Muslims who think the mass-slaughter of innocent non-Muslim (and some Muslim) civilians on 9/11 was either completely, partially or some way justified, up to 36.6 percent, or almost 4 out of every 10 Muslim.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Terrorism

Could you check my math on even the low number from the guy YOU quote? Like, would you agree that 7% of 1,700,000,000 = A WHOLE FRICK'N LOT OF RADICALS.

Using the larger number of 36% of 1.7B is....a lot more than a couple hundred thousand.

Go Blazers

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Are we talking killing civilians after spending billions on weapons and tactics that avoid killing them, while we're fight against fighters that hide behind those civilians by using them as sheilds? Or are we refering to targeting women and children for gruelsome, painful death to make a political statement? Or, do you think that is the same thing?

Go Blazers

a civilian is a civilian, whether we "didn't really want to kill them" is irrelevant to their grieving families I would adsume.

If al Qaeda "accidentally" killed 100000 civilians while trying to take over our country, that would be fine?

 

[oldguy]

a civilian is a civilian, whether we "didn't really want to kill them" is irrelevant to their grieving families I would adsume.

If al Qaeda "accidentally" killed 100000 civilians while trying to take over our country, that would be fine?

So, the same.

Go Blazers

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I don't understand your answer

 

[Denny Crane]

Ok, how about trying this from another direction?


http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muslim_Statistics_-_Terrorism

Could you check my math on even the low number from the guy YOU quote? Like, would you agree that 7% of 1,700,000,000 = A WHOLE FRICK'N LOT OF RADICALS.

Using the larger number of 36% of 1.7B is....a lot more than a couple hundred thousand.

Go Blazers

When should we launch the nukes?

 

[Denny Crane]

Well, what do you know?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/03/poll-muslims-atheists-most-likely-to-reject-violence/

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Yes, we were attempting to speak about terrorism. It has been difficult to get you to do so,
but here is another chance.

I'm pretty sure this thread was about why Muslims "hate being photographed," and then got derailed into terrorism as all threads about Islam or the Middle East do. Single minded much?

Please explain what ever justification you have for how the plight the farmers in India and the IMF have combined to cause the Muslim Jihadist to attack us using their terrorist tactics.

That comment I made wasn't about Muslim terrorism. Go back and read what the comment was in response to.

Then, what is it you think we should be doing to prevent slave labor in the Islamic world that will
pacify the Jihadist if we would only do the deed?

Radicals, jihadists and terrorists don't care about the slave labor in the Gulf because the slaves are from east Asia and are not Muslim. We can't prevent slave labor in the Gulf.

Again, that comment wasn't in response to Muslim terrorism.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Does anyone know if Muslims taste like chicken? We could kill all of them, cook them and then feed them to starving Christian Africans. Then people who are afraid of Muslims could feel good about killing them.

Wouldn't it be ironic if they tasted like bacon?

 

[maxiep]

Who forgot to check credentials here anyway? One thing is for sure, where politics and religion are the same power base, fanatics get an easy toehold on the masses. (nobody is getting a peek at my credentials!)

He was the one who ran for his ivory tower and used it as pedestal. I was simply reminding him that most of us in here have ivory towers on which we can stand.

 

[maxiep]

Well, what do you know?

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/03/poll-muslims-atheists-most-likely-to-reject-violence/

And yet, Islam is the only major religion where it's common to preach hatred for other religions and other peoples, and where people who blow themselves up are called "martyrs" by mainline "leaders" of their religion. You never hear a Pope embrace the terrorist methods of the IRA.

Part of the problem with Islam is that it's more than a religion. We're used to religion being separate from the state. Even in Israel, Judaism is somewhat separate from the functioning of the state. Islam combines the two, using the Qur'an and any number of hadith collections as the basis for Sharia. The Torah or the Bible is used as more of a moral guide, rather than laws of the state.

But getting back to the root post, I would imagine that being photographed my have something to do with the Islamic tradition of not allowing drawing, because only God can create form or shape.

 

[maxiep]

Wouldn't it be ironic if they tasted like bacon?

Not to me. Pigs don't eat other pigs. How do pigs get to taste like bacon?