Around the NBA - October 2017 (3 Viewers)

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Should there be a difference in consequence if its a teammate vs a player on another team as well?
 
Chris Craig said:
So if two players fight. One instigates the fight, throws a punch, and does little damage. The other player retaliates, throws a punch and does extreme damage to the other players face, that requires hospitalization, surgery, and months off the court. Both players should be suspended the sane amount of games? Recieve the same punishment? Doesn't seem equitable.
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I think you did an excellent job of breaking down exactly what I was saying. And after reading it......I absolutely agree with myself.
Hell I might even go as far as saying the guy who instigated the fight in the first place, and "threw the first punch" be penalized more EVEN if he suffered more damages.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
I think you did an excellent job of breaking down exactly what I was saying. And after reading it......I absolutely agree with myself.
Hell I might even go as far as saying the guy who instigated the fight in the first place, and "threw the first punch" be penalized more EVEN if he suffered more damages.
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Thats why I asked what the nba sees as being worse, the instigation\ initiation of a fight or retaliation. I been discussing this with the Mrs. and I do think instigation should be highly considered.
 
So considerations after a fight:

  • Who instigated the fight?
  • Intention( does the player retaliating have the same intention as the player who instigated/initiated the fight?)
  • Damage?
  • Amount of time injured player is out because of injury?
  • Equitable consequences?
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Why can't I change the narrative? I am simply asking a question based if thing were just a little different. I defended Mirotic last night when someone said he had it coming by charging him twice. I felt that the reason he charged him twice was important.

I have moved on from Portis, now I am the asking a question on what should happen if things were slightly different. The consensus seems to be that the penalty should be handed out differently based on who kicks who's ass. And I am not sure I agree.
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Because your narrative isn't true. You said Portis threw the first punch when really that was the only punch thrown (an unsuspected punch) and it knocked Mirotic out and broke bones in his face.

That's a far cry from being in a fight and someone else throwing the first punch.

No... He SNUCK Mirotic like a lil' BITCH.

Saying he "threw the first punch" implies that Mirotic simply can't fight and got dropped.

This was not the case.
 
dviss1 said:
Because your narrative isn't true. You said Portis threw the first punch when really that was the only punch thrown (an unsuspected punch) and it knocked Mirotic out and broke bones in his face.

That's a far cry from being in a fight and someone else throwing the first punch.

No... He SNUCK Mirotic like a lil' BITCH.

Saying he "threw the first punch" implies that Mirotic simply can't fight and got dropped.

This was not the case.
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http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21064604/chicago-bulls-forward-bobby-portis-suspended-eight-games

"Paxson said it would be inaccurate to characterize Portis' punch as a "sucker punch."

But I agree there was no excuse for what Portis did. It looks like it was simply aggressive basketball from both sides when Portis escalated it. Even if Lopez said:

"Veteran center Robin Lopez made it clear that the rest of the Bulls' players felt there was blame on both sides of the altercation."
 
DEN @ UTA should be interesting. All offense, no defense, vs. a great defensive team that would have trouble scoring 100 points in a Sunday night rec league. UTA is one of the few teams in the league that could struggle to score against DEN, but that has nothing to do with DEN. On the other end, UTA has the defenders to shutdown DEN's high powered offense. Quite the contrast in styles.

These teams met four times last season. The home team won every time and none of the games were very close. But, the Jazz have lost leading scorer Gordon Hayward and replaced starting PG George Hill with Ricky Rubio and DEN has added 4-time Eastern Conference All Star* Paul Millsap.

* All current and recent Eastern Conference All Stars not named LeBron James deserve an asterisk.

BNM
 
Pinwheel1 said:
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/21064604/chicago-bulls-forward-bobby-portis-suspended-eight-games

"Paxson said it would be inaccurate to characterize Portis' punch as a "sucker punch."

But I agree there was no excuse for what Portis did. It looks like it was simply aggressive basketball from both sides when Portis escalated it. Even if Lopez said:

"Veteran center Robin Lopez made it clear that the rest of the Bulls' players felt there was blame on both sides of the altercation."
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Fair enough. I see the people who reported as such have changed their tune.
 
Chris Craig said:
Seems like its closer to the Kermit Washington\Tomjanovitch incident in terms of severity. Though they weren't teammates.
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Haha! Rudy T can't fight! I don't classify this as a sucker punch. He could've defended himself.

 
dviss1 said:
Haha! Rudy T can't fight! I don't classify this as a sucker punch. He could've defended himself.

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He almost died. His brain fluids were leaking into his mouth...thats how hard he got hit.
 
Chris Craig said:
He almost died. His brain fluids were leaking into his mouth...thats how hard he got hit.
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No, look at the video closely. The back of his head hit's the ground really hard. He immediately grabs the back of his head.
See, he was knocked out after the initial blow but the full weight of his head hitting the ground is what did that.
 
Chris Craig said:
He almost died. His brain fluids were leaking into his mouth...thats how hard he got hit.
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The Punch : Tomjanovich and Washington Both Still Feel the Pain From That Terrible Moment
January 28, 1985

He saw nothing and felt nothing. He lost consciousness when the punch shattered the left side of his face. When he opened his eyes a few minutes later, he had to ask someone what had happened.

As Rudy Tomjanovich was being helped off the court, he realized his nose was broken. The pain wasn't severe yet, but he knew he would not be able to play any more that night, and he was angry. His shots were starting to fall, and he was mad because he couldn't be there for the rest of the game.

It wasn't until the doctors began attending to him in the emergency room that Tomjanovich realized he had more than a broken nose. The anger melted away and fear flooded through him when he was told he might not survive.

On the night of Dec. 9, 1977, the Houston Rocket forward had suffered a fractured skull, broken jaw, broken nose, other facial injuries and leakage of spinal fluid when he was struck by the fist of Laker forward Kermit Washington.

When the swelling subsided, surgery was performed to reconstruct his face. Tomjanovich eventually recovered and played for three more seasons before he retired in 1981.

Washington, after being fined $10,000 and suspended 60 days by the National Basketball Assn., also resumed his career and became an all-star. A back injury forced his retirement in 1982.

Both men have tried to put behind them what happened that night at the Forum more than seven years ago. But the legacy of The Punch remains a part of their lives, just as it serves as a reminder to current players of what can happen in a fit of rage.

"As tragic and unfortunate as it was, it gave meaning to the phrases we utter about the ability of our athletes to do great harm to each other," NBA Commissioner David Stern said.

"You can't discuss violence in any sport without thinking about what happened between Rudy and Kermit. It crystallized and focused and forever emblazoned on the consciousness of all athletes what can happen."

The fight--frightening both for its ferocity and the suddenness with which it happened--erupted in the opening minute of the second half of a game won by the Rockets, 116-105.

After a missed shot by the Lakers, Houston's Kevin Kunnert got into a jostling match with Washington as the players ran upcourt.

"He was holding my shorts and I was just trying to knock his hand away," Kunnert said in a recent interview.

According to published reports, it appeared that Kunnert elbowed Washington and struck him with two grazing punches.

Then came a flurry of blows from Washington before Laker center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar moved in and pinned Kunnert's arms. Another punch, and Kunnert slumped to the floor with cuts under the right eye.

It was then that Tomjanovich, who had been standing near the free-throw line at the other end of the court, got involved. Attempting to help his teammate, Tomjanovich was the recipient of a blow that sent him reeling backward, flailing his arms and striking the back of his head on the floor.
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Kunnert, who is now retired, feels some bitterness over his role in the fight.

"I didn't start it," he said. "Kermit has had a smear campaign against me, but I didn't do anything. I resent it being pinned on me. I don't feel guilty."

There are several ironic twists associated with the altercation. Tomjanovich and Washington are both sensitive, thoughtful men who might have been friends had they been teammates. Both were tutored by Pete Newell, the former college coach, NBA executive and part-time instructor who runs a summer camp for young NBA players. And both are back in basketball, on similar paths that could lead to head-coaching jobs.

Tomjanovich, 36, is an assistant coach with heavy scouting responsibilities for his old team, the Houston Rockets. He still suffers sinus headaches as an after-effect of The Punch, and says he is out of shape because of his extensive traveling. But he still loves to sneak into a gym, have a kid feed him the ball and shoot those rainbow 20-footers that were his specialty.

When he was contacted by a reporter, he said it had been years since he had given a long interview, and he preferred it that way. However, he talked freely and openly for more than an hour.

"'Whenever I see a replay of what happened, I almost feel like it's not me I'm watching," Tomjanovich said. "I don't have nightmares. It was a stumbling block in life, but I endured it, and maybe I'm better for it.

"I don't know, it's hard for me to grade my life. I know that I got through it (the incident) without being angry at the world--or at Kermit."

The agonies of his recovery were matched in a different, but equally demanding way, by the stress Washington felt as he tried to put his life back together.

Washington, 33, who is now an assistant coach at Stanford, felt abandoned in the aftermath of The Punch. Shortly after he was reinstated by the NBA, he was traded to Boston, where he knew no one. Loneliness, heckling and threats accompanied him for the rest of the 1977-78 season, and into the future.
 
I am not sure if I have ever seen this particular angle before, where it shows how much time Kermit actually had to react.....before swinging. I always thought he only saw Rudy out of the corner of his eye and swung thinking he was being attacked. This shows a different story. He didn't need to punch him. Very unfortunate for both players.
 
Boob-No-More said:
DEN @ UTA should be interesting. All offense, no defense, vs. a great defensive team that would have trouble scoring 100 points in a Sunday night rec league. UTA is one of the few teams in the league that could struggle to score against DEN, but that has nothing to do with DEN. On the other end, UTA has the defenders to shutdown DEN's high powered offense. Quite the contrast in styles.

These teams met four times last season. The home team won every time and none of the games were very close. But, the Jazz have lost leading scorer Gordon Hayward and replaced starting PG George Hill with Ricky Rubio and DEN has added 4-time Eastern Conference All Star* Paul Millsap.

* All current and recent Eastern Conference All Stars not named LeBron James deserve an asterisk.

BNM
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Minus the obvious, Jazz/Nuggets is the game of the night for me.

I think Utah's offense is going to surprise people, meaning it wont be bottom 7 bad.

Quin Snyder, a Rubio+Gobert pnr duo plus enough shooting from Hood, Ingles, JJ and possibly Mitchell is enough to be slightly below average. And if Favors really is healthy, they'll be one of the better offensive rebounding teams in the league.
 
JDC said:
Minus the obvious, Jazz/Nuggets is the game of the night for me.

I think Utah's offense is going to surprise people, meaning it wont be bottom 7 bad.

Quin Snyder, a Rubio+Gobert pnr duo plus enough shooting from Hood, Ingles, JJ and possibly Mitchell is enough to be slightly below average. And if Favors really is healthy, they'll be one of the better offensive rebounding teams in the league.
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UTA struggled to scroe 100 points last season and lost their two highest scorers (Hayward at 21.9 ppg and Hill at 15.9 ppg). No one else on their roster averaged more than 14 PPG last season. Tuat's a lot of scoring to replace for a team that already struggled to score.

I like Joe Ingles, he's a surprisingly good defender and lights out 3-point shooter (.441 3FG%), but he only averaged 7.1 ppg in 24 MPG last season. He's not going to replace Hayward's scoring and Rubio isn't going to replace Hill's scoring or 3-point shooting.

Their defense will keep them in most games, but the question is will they be able to score enough to win many of those games. MIN was absolutely horrible in close games with Rubio playing in the 4th quarter. He's such a bad shooter and so reluctant to take a shot with the game on the line, you simply can't play him. Opposing defenses simply sag way off him and deny the passing lanes, taking away his one strength.

With no Hayward and no Hill, I expect the Jazz to lose a lot of close games.

BNM
 
dviss1 said:
Don't change the narrative.

Your point is moot because Portis threw the ONLY punch. And it was a sucker punch.
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You keep using the phrase "suck punch" - either that does not mean what you think it means,
or your sources are different than the ones that came out initially.
 
Boob-No-More said:
UTA struggled to scroe 100 points last season and lost their two highest scorers (Hayward at 21.9 ppg and Hill at 15.9 ppg). No one else on their roster averaged more than 14 PPG last season. Tuat's a lot of scoring to replace for a team that already struggled to score.

I like Joe Ingles, he's a surprisingly good defender and lights out 3-point shooter (.441 3FG%), but he only averaged 7.1 ppg in 24 MPG last season. He's not going to replace Hayward's scoring and Rubio isn't going to replace Hill's scoring or 3-point shooting.

Their defense will keep them in most games, but the question is will they be able to score enough to win many of those games. MIN was absolutely horrible in close games with Rubio playing in the 4th quarter. He's such a bad shooter and so reluctant to take a shot with the game on the line, you simply can't play him. Opposing defenses simply sag way off him and deny the passing lanes, taking away his one strength.

With no Hayward and no Hill, I expect the Jazz to lose a lot of close games.

BNM
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It's bounce back years from Hood and Favors plus more games from Rubio vs what Hill gave them last year that will help make up the Hayward's loss. I also think Rubio helps elevate Gobert and Favors despite his shooting struggles.

I understand that's projecting a lot to go right for them, but I just have a good feeling about that group coming together and Quinn getting the most out of their talent.
 
dviss1 said:
No, look at the video closely. The back of his head hit's the ground really hard. He immediately grabs the back of his head.
See, he was knocked out after the initial blow but the full weight of his head hitting the ground is what did that.
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It was still a result of the hit, but yeah good catch. Back when I played in High School hit my head pretty hard once taking a charge. I set my feet outside the line and the opposing player, twice my size bowled me down. I fell backwards and banged my head. Had a terrible concussion. I should have probably gone to the hospital. But, what pissed me off was after I got up I find that the ref called me for a blocking foul. I was like hell no.
 
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JDC said:
It's bounce back years from Hood and Favors plus more games from Rubio vs what Hill gave them last year that will help make up the Hayward's loss. I also think Rubio helps elevate Gobert and Favors despite his shooting struggles.

I understand that's projecting a lot to go right for them, but I just have a good feeling about that group coming together and Quinn getting the most out of their talent.
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It will be interesting to see how Rubio fairs under Snyder. Rubio seems best suited to a fast paced offense, where Snyder is the new Nate McMillan in terms of offensive pace. Doesn't seem like a good fit to me, but we'll just have to wait and see.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
UTA struggled to scroe 100 points last season and lost their two highest scorers (Hayward at 21.9 ppg and Hill at 15.9 ppg). No one else on their roster averaged more than 14 PPG last season. Tuat's a lot of scoring to replace for a team that already struggled to score.
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And yet they managed it fine in preseason.

Rudy Gobert is going to challenge for MVP, I'm going to go out on a limb and claim.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
And yet they managed it fine in preseason.

Rudy Gobert is going to challenge for MVP, I'm going to go out on a limb and claim.
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That's bold, but I like it. I don't think Utah wins enough games, but I could definitely see him being in the conversation if they surprise with 50ish wins.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
And yet they managed it fine in preseason.

Rudy Gobert is going to challenge for MVP, I'm going to go out on a limb and claim.
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LOL, right. They had an even easier preseason schedule than the Blazers. They played Sidney, Maccabi, PHO, LAL and PHO. Not exactly a lot of defensive juggernauts.

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
LOL, right. They had an even easier preseason schedule than the Blazers. They played Sidney, Maccabi, PHO, LAL and PHO. Not exactly a lot of defensive juggernauts.

BNM
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So they went 5-0
 
Denny Crane said:
After the injury, he was in his 30s, and still a really good player.
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No.

He hurt his ankle during his final year in Detroit. He was 27 years old. His last year in Detroit he averaged 25.8 ppg, 5.2 assists, 6.6 rebounds, and 1.4 steals. He played in 74 games that year.

The following FOUR YEARS in Orlando he played in 4 games, 14 games, 29 games, and 0 games in 2003-2004.

At that point he was 32, and from there he went on to play respectable seasons, but he was never a star player again. He never even got remotely closed to what he was. He averaged 19.7 ppg in 2004-2005 at 32 years old, but that was by far his best season after the injury, and most of his other seasons were closer to 15 ppg or less.

Not even remotely the same player.
 
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