As long as Nate is coach, Batum will never develop

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Not sure I understand what you're trying to say. He's been inconsistent as an international rookie and as a guy who was injured for most of his sophomore year? Maybe you should take a look at the career paths of similar international players who made the jump:

For example, -TP, Peja , or Dirk. And they all gained a sense of "consistency" only during their second and/or third years. But the one common factor they all shared was that their coaches and teams played in a system that was conducive to their success.

You brought up the whole argument about how he's overrated, and several others in this thead chimed in that he hasn't "stepped up" or has been "inconsistent at a time when the team is desperately looking for other players to step up." Whereas, the above gamelog I posted shows nearly the exact opposite outside of four anomalies.

Kingspoint said:
Never let facts get in the way of a good discussion.
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Sorry. I should have said 48, 38, 81. 50-40-80 was too distorting. :rolleyes2:
 
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Kingspoint said:
Never let facts get in the way of a good discussion.

As you stated very clearly, nobody's talents are taken advantage of in Nate's system other than Roy's. Roy's health and Nate's anal-retentive style drag the entire team down.

If Roy would just go away, Wesley Matthews, Rudy and Batum could all get more minutes, and the result would be a style of basketball that even Nate couldn't slow down to the molasses-pace that he (because he's a control freak) and Roy (because it's easier on his knees) prefer to play.

It's a very ugly situation that won't get any better until Roy is permanently gone. Only Pritchard would have the balls to get rid of him. Cho will just sit there and collect his checks, as he's been doing since he got here.
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So I take it Cho should buy him out and let his salary hit our cap for 15+ million a year for the next five years? I mean that's pretty much his only option unless Roy takes a medical retirement and that doesn't appear likely right now; if you're thinking that he's tradeable he's not ... in fact he might be one of the most untradeable contracts in the NBA given the balky situation with his knees and the size and length of his contract (to put things in perspective, Gilbert Arenas has a more tradeable contract right now).

Hell maybe you're right though, KP might have had the "balls" to waive him and let his deal rot on the balance sheet for years without even the possibility of trading him as an expiring contract in 4 1/2 years, he did a similar thing with Steve Francis.
 
yuyuza1 said:
Not sure I understand what you're trying to say. He's been inconsistent as an international rookie and as a guy who was injured for most of his sophomore year? Maybe you should take a look at the career paths of similar international players who made the jump:

For example, -TP, Peja , or Dirk. And they all gained a sense of "consistency" only during their second and/or third years. But the one common factor they all shared was that their coaches and teams played in a system that was conducive to their success.

You brought up the whole argument about how he's overrated, and several others in this thead chimed in that he hasn't "stepped up" or has been "inconsistent at a time when the team is desperately looking for other players to step up." Whereas, the above gamelog I posted shows nearly the exact opposite outside of four anomalies.


Sorry. I should have said 48, 38, 81. 50-40-80 was too distorting. :rolleyes2:
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I was agreeing with you.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Roy and Nate.
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It's a tough situation for TrailBlazer fans.

It sucks that there's going to be several more years before there's any light to the end of this tunnel.

These player will all be gone before Roy and his destructive minutes are gone: Joel, Marcus, Rudy, Andre...what we'll have left will be the Toronto Raptors...or worse.
 
Nikolokolus said:
So I take it Cho should buy him out and let his salary hit our cap for 15+ million a year for the next five years? I mean that's pretty much his only option unless Roy takes a medical retirement and that doesn't appear likely right now; if you're thinking that he's tradeable he's not ... in fact he might be one of the most untradeable contracts in the NBA given the balky situation with his knees and the size and length of his contract (to put things in perspective, Gilbert Arenas has a more tradeable contract right now).
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Sadly, that's it.
 
Roy doesn't need to "go away." He can work fine in a system that isn't completely based on forcefeeding him the ball and telling him to work one of one every time down. I'm sure he would actually appreciate the load off.
 
Kingspoint said:
Sadly, that's it.
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In that case I'd rather hold on to him and at least get something out of him, even if it's only part-time, and then use his huge 17 million dollar expiring contract in 2015 as a trade asset, or see if he does need to medically retire which would wipe his salary off our of cap number.

Waiving him would be the worst of all options.
 
yuyuza1 said:
Roy doesn't need to "go away." He can work fine in a system that isn't completely based on forcefeeding him the ball and telling him to work one of one every time down. I'm sure he would actually appreciate the load off.
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seriously hes fine if he plays semi off the ball with his right time drives to the hoop. we just need a different offense where it isnt based on him. you know where players actually fucking move. I like nate but fuck he needs to switch it the hell up.... the only thing roy can hurt us on is fast breaks where hes leading the fast break (see NOLA game) or defense
 
There's what Roy "should do" for the team, and what Roy is "willing to do" for the team.

Used "effectively", he's the 8th man in an 8-man rotation. He can shoot and score, and that's it. He's not even a Guard, as he can't dribble any more (you saw him get picked repeatedly tonight, including when we were down by two with a minute to go, thus sealing the game). He can't run Offensively or Defensively.

All he can do is shoot the ball. He doesn't get foul calls any more. He's no longer considered a "Star" by referees.

This limits him to 10 minutes per game...spot start in an emergency if Matthews and Rudy are BOTH injured.

Will Roy play 10 minutes per game? Not a chance. He'd tear the team apart even more than he's already doing.

The season is already ruined because of him. His only option is to go away. Nate, Cho and he need to sit down and an ultimatum needs to be made, where Cho tells both Nate and Roy, "Your career is over here. We can't trade you. You can't play even 6th-man minutes. You need to be the 5th Guard on this team which is what your talent level matches. Johnson is the #4 because he backs up Andre. You can't hold Rudy or Wesley's jocks right now. Nothing against you, but, you're dragging down the team insisting on playing like there's nothing wrong with you. We've tried hiding it for 4 years now, but we've been destroyed the two playoff series we've been in, it's cost us a very good G.M. because of playing style philosophy's, we had a player who set the Rookie 3-pt record threaten to go back to Europe because our attempts to do everything we can for your knees has stifled his growth, and you continue to stifle the growth of other players around you. We probably would have drafted Durant if we hadn't been so worried about how many shots Durant would be taking from you. You're a Diva, Brandon...without the talent. Those days are gone. You either except the new role, or we're just going to put you on permanent I.R."

Yeah,...Roy will go for that.
 
Kingspoint said:
There's what Roy "should do" for the team, and what Roy is "willing to do" for the team.

Used "effectively", he's the 8th man in an 8-man rotation. He can shoot and score, and that's it. He's not even a Guard, as he can't dribble any more (you saw him get picked repeatedly tonight, including when we were down by two with a minute to go, thus sealing the game). He can't run Offensively or Defensively.

All he can do is shoot the ball. He doesn't get foul calls any more. He's no longer considered a "Star" by referees.

This limits him to 10 minutes per game...spot start in an emergency if Matthews and Rudy are BOTH injured.

Will Roy play 10 minutes per game? Not a chance. He'd tear the team apart even more than he's already doing.

The season is already ruined because of him. His only option is to go away. Nate, Cho and he need to sit down and an ultimatum needs to be made, where Cho tells both Nate and Roy, "Your career is over here. We can't trade you. You can't play even 6th-man minutes. You need to be the 5th Guard on this team which is what your talent level matches. Johnson is the #4 because he backs up Andre. You can't hold Rudy or Wesley's jocks right now. Nothing against you, but, you're dragging down the team insisting on playing like there's nothing wrong with you. We've tried hiding it for 4 years now, but we've been destroyed the two playoff series we've been in, it's cost us a very good G.M. because of playing style philosophy's, we had a player who set the Rookie 3-pt record threaten to go back to Europe because our attempts to do everything we can for your knees has stifled his growth, and you continue to stifle the growth of other players around you. We probably would have drafted Durant if we hadn't been so worried about how many shots Durant would be taking from you. You're a Diva, Brandon...without the talent. Those days are gone. You either except the new role, or we're just going to put you on permanent I.R."

Yeah,...Roy will go for that.
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I don't even know where to start ...
 
Roy did fine; New Jersey double teamed him most of the game; he does need to pass out a little quicker and his teammates need to make open shots.
 
Kingspoint said:
There's what Roy "should do" for the team, and what Roy is "willing to do" for the team.

Used "effectively", he's the 8th man in an 8-man rotation. He can shoot and score, and that's it. He's not even a Guard, as he can't dribble any more (you saw him get picked repeatedly tonight, including when we were down by two with a minute to go, thus sealing the game). He can't run Offensively or Defensively.

All he can do is shoot the ball. He doesn't get foul calls any more. He's no longer considered a "Star" by referees.

This limits him to 10 minutes per game...spot start in an emergency if Matthews and Rudy are BOTH injured.

Will Roy play 10 minutes per game? Not a chance. He'd tear the team apart even more than he's already doing.

The season is already ruined because of him. His only option is to go away. Nate, Cho and he need to sit down and an ultimatum needs to be made, where Cho tells both Nate and Roy, "Your career is over here. We can't trade you. You can't play even 6th-man minutes. You need to be the 5th Guard on this team which is what your talent level matches. Johnson is the #4 because he backs up Andre. You can't hold Rudy or Wesley's jocks right now. Nothing against you, but, you're dragging down the team insisting on playing like there's nothing wrong with you. We've tried hiding it for 4 years now, but we've been destroyed the two playoff series we've been in, it's cost us a very good G.M. because of playing style philosophy's, we had a player who set the Rookie 3-pt record threaten to go back to Europe because our attempts to do everything we can for your knees has stifled his growth, and you continue to stifle the growth of other players around you. We probably would have drafted Durant if we hadn't been so worried about how many shots Durant would be taking from you. You're a Diva, Brandon...without the talent. Those days are gone. You either except the new role, or we're just going to put you on permanent I.R."

Yeah,...Roy will go for that.
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Denny................ THIS POST IS BAN WORTHY!
 
hasoos said:
I call bullshit. Batum needs to step up and deliver, and the reason he is sitting is because he has been stinking it up. Even if a player is having a bad night offensively, they should still collect effort statistics. Batum has basically been a big doughnut on the floor the last few games. He isn't showing up in the effort column. He is losing his defensive assignments at the 3point line. He isn't rebounding. He is passing up good shots for bad one's. For a guy who talks about having the potential of Scottie Pippen, he sure hasn't figured out the one thing that set Scottie apart from the rest. His motor.
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Repped. Nate isn't holding Nic back. Nic has been playing like shit. 5 pts, 0 rebs vs Hornets. Uninspiring first half vs Nets. OF COURSE, he started Wesley Matthews in the second half. MATTHEWS WAS MAKING SHOTS and he was playing well off of Roy. I'm with NateBishop. Batum is the most overrated player in Blazers history.
 
By the way, how have Bayless and Sergio developed since leaving Nate?
 
HCP said:
Denny................ THIS POST IS BAN WORTHY!
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Kingspoint is refreshing. We already have different posters who hate Rudy, Andre, Babbitt, Aldridge, Oden, Marks, the trainer, the training staff, the doctor, the coach, the GM, the previous GM, the owner....Sergio, Bayless, Outlaw, Webster...and finally we have some balance...someone who hates Roy. There will be more.

We need lucky applicants for the positions of Cunningham, Armon, Przybilla, Camby, and this new E-guy who's injured. Also each individual assistant coach and the guy who guards the parking lot in the round red hat with the gold tassel.
 
jlprk said:
Fixed.
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Zach is only doing what he's been doing his entire career. He's been putting up All-Star numbers since he was in Portland. The only difference is that he finally got the nod while in Memphis. Nate has nothing to do with it.
 
RoyToy said:
Fact: Batum is tied 3rd with miller for FGA/G.
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Additional fact: Batum averages more FGA/36 than Miller (12.7 to 11.8). Chalk this up as yet another example of the S2 consensus flying directly in the face of the actual statistics.
 
BGrantFan said:
Randolph had his best statistical season with Nate coaching him in 2006-07.

23.6 ppg
10.1 rpg
22.8 PER (19.6 career average, All-Star season PER of 21.2 with Memphis in 2009-10)

Try again...
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Haha, I guess I was wrong too then. I didn't think Nate made a difference either way, but I'm sure playing with Rudy Gay, OJ Mayo, and Conley hasn't really helped Zach's stats.
 
BGrantFan said:
Randolph had his best statistical season with Nate coaching him in 2006-07.

23.6 ppg
10.1 rpg
22.8 PER (19.6 career average, All-Star season PER of 21.2 with Memphis in 2009-10)

Try again...
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06-07 Portland: win share 5.7, 32 wins
09-10 Memphis: win share 9.7, 40 wins

Win share is from Basketball-Reference.

In case you wiseguy "Try again" I'll hold a couple of other stats in reserve.
 
Wow you people sure talk a lot about Zbo. The guy has the most hollow stat line I have ever seen. He may put down a double double, but when it comes to making the little things happen to make a team win more, forget it. It's probably good for him nobody keeps track of how many times he doesn't run back on defense. Or how he doesn't rebound on the defensive end of the court. Or how he can't defend other PF to save his life. Or how many times he spends jawing with the ref while the guy he is supposed to guard is dunking on the other end. He might lead the league in that category if they tracked it.
 
jlprk said:
06-07 Portland: win share 5.7, 32 wins
09-10 Memphis: win share 9.7, 40 wins

Win share is from Basketball-Reference.

In case you wiseguy "Try again" I'll hold a couple of other stats in reserve.
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Wins shares are team dependent to some degree. You said that Zach developed after leaving Nate. His individual statistics belie that opinion. That he was on a better team has nothing to do with his individual "All-Star" statistics. His WS, Ortg, and Drtg didn't get him to the All-Star game.

Your mindless little one-liners don't work on the S2 Blazer board. People don't just let them pass here.
 
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According to Chad Ford teams are lining up for Nic and mentioned that teams say Batum would flourish elsewhere as he is made for an up-tempo system.

How I loathe Nate's ISO-heavy, slow it up system.
 
jlprk said:
06-07 Portland: win share 5.7, 32 wins
09-10 Memphis: win share 9.7, 40 wins

Win share is from Basketball-Reference.

In case you wiseguy "Try again" I'll hold a couple of other stats in reserve.
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Winshare by itself is accumulative, so - having played 81 games vs. 68 in Portland definitely tilts the favor in his Memphis year over his Portland year.

It is interesting to see that his WS/48 is higher in MEM as well, but here you run into the interesting aspect of the WS calculation where the possessions used is factored, and the fact is that Zach was the de-facto #1 option in Portland, where his usage% was much higher than in Memphis - this gives him a higher WS/48 - despite the fact that his individual contributions, as measured by PER were not as good.

I think that ZBo had pretty productive years both last year in MEM and under Nate - but his role was different - in one he was the #1 option, in the other he was #2, #3 or #4. So, my opinion is that ZBo was probably a better individual player under Nate and a better team player in MEM, but given the situation in Portland where he had rookie Roy, rookie LMA and a bunch of not so good players - it is not hard to understand why his usage was different between these years.
 
BGrantFan said:
Randolph had his best statistical season with Nate coaching him in 2006-07.

23.6 ppg
10.1 rpg
22.8 PER (19.6 career average, All-Star season PER of 21.2 with Memphis in 2009-10)

Try again...
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...and you always say that Love is just a stat collecter on a bad team....
 
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