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Orion Bailey

Orion Bailey

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I suppose this would be tech...
I know there are a few digital audio savants around here @BlazerCaravan ...

Ive been working on a couple of newer pieces of equipment I have picked up to help progress and modernize my band's sound.

I picked up the Roland JD-XA



and the Roland SPD-SX



I have two different recording programs I use for instrument tracks for these items.
I have Studio One 3 Artist and Pro Tools 12.
Studio One is Presonus and should have a more seamless approach to the mixing using my board...
However I am not fond ofthe layout at all compared to PT which I can create different tabs for mixing vs editing, and allows me to keep track of things better.

The board I run is the Presonus StudioLive Series 3



What i'm trying to do is find a format that can syncronize the synth with the trigger pad, so I can use the Synth as a trigger for some uploaded samples (they synth is not a sampler, only has a sequencer)
If I can do this, then it keeps the operations in my hands and not the drummer for certain things.

A friend of mind mentions Ableton live as he uses it to sync up the lighting of his shows to coincide with the music, but when I checked it out, it looked like a really mathy, griddy layout.

Im still a novice to alot of the digital aspects of music and am not sure where to dig to find out if there is even something like this.
The Roland and Presonus forums, don't really dive into this much and the few topics Ive found that are related, don't have the same exact equipment I am using.

If anyone knows what I am talking about and has any ideas/suggestions, I would love the help.
Ive posted this on a few musical forums I use for reference as well, but thought Id give you guys a shot, since this place also gets a ton of traffic.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
SlyPokerDog Sex?!?

Who is this Roland and what have you been telling him about me?
Click to expand...


LMAO. I missed that.
Ill write some animal tune for you on it.
What does animal sex sound like again?

I'm stumped. Ive been working on it/researching it most of the day and haven't come up with anything clear that seems like it will work, but its all about searching the right keywords. Ugh.
 
wait.

Just to be clear. I have NOT been researching anmial sex sounds most of the day!!!!!

Ive been researching the fricken OP.

Had to clear that up before I get misunderstood again, hahaha.
It really reads bad. shit haha
 
BlazerCaravan said:
I think the trick will be to use the MIDI OUT on the synth/board and the MIDI IN on the SX:

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/articles/roland-spd-sx-assigning-midi-note-numbers-pads/

Basically the SX can trigger its sounds when it receives a MIDI note but you have to assign it (the directions are above).

Sweet hardware! Wish I had the budget for them!
Click to expand...

I know it will seem, odd, but I want to go the opposite direction. I want to load up a sample in the SX and trigger it through the XA if possible.
The problem is I cant upload generic sounds into the XA, like gunshots and sirens and stuff. But I can load those into the SX trigger pad.
I want to then sync the trigger pad to the XA, so I dont have to use the SX trigger pad for certain sounds.
My reasoning for this is this.

Certain songs, the drummer will use the trigger pad on certain things, like the siren and gunshots, and so the trigger pad will need to be near him.
But we also want to upload certain piano parts that we dont want him to trigger, we want me to trigger with the SX. I have two synths, so I want to be able to trigger one sound at the exact same time I start playing the other synth, but we don't want to have to go through the click track sequencer in the XA, because then that will inhibit our freedom for the whole song.

Ive been trying to work with the subgroups of my mixer to see if I could assign some sort of path that way, but no luck and I get confused easily with this stuff.
 
Orion Bailey said:
I know it will seem, odd, but I want to go the opposite direction. I want to load up a sample in the SX and trigger it through the XA if possible.
The problem is I cant upload generic sounds into the XA, like gunshots and sirens and stuff. But I can load those into the SX trigger pad.
I want to then sync the trigger pad to the XA, so I dont have to use the SX trigger pad for certain sounds.
My reasoning for this is this.

Certain songs, the drummer will use the trigger pad on certain things, like the siren and gunshots, and so the trigger pad will need to be near him.
But we also want to upload certain piano parts that we dont want him to trigger, we want me to trigger with the SX. I have two synths, so I want to be able to trigger one sound at the exact same time I start playing the other synth, but we don't want to have to go through the click track sequencer in the XA, because then that will inhibit our freedom for the whole song.

Ive been trying to work with the subgroups of my mixer to see if I could assign some sort of path that way, but no luck and I get confused easily with this stuff.
Click to expand...

I know what you're asking for and I thought I was giving you directions to do that. Midi out from the XA, into the SX. You just need to assign a note to the pads so that the SX knows what note to look for FROM the XA to trigger the pad. Pick the lowest notes on the XA so they're out of the way. This is how Jordan Rudess did it in the late 90's with his keyboard setup.
 
MIDI is a ridiculously slow communication protocol. If you get enough instruments on the MIDI bus, you will notice a lot of lag - delays when a note should sound and when it does sound.

If you have a pitch wheel on that keyboard, using it will generate a ton of MIDI traffic, slowing things down even more.

MIDI is serial communications at 31.25kbits/sec. Broadband is at least 25mbit, or about 1000x faster. Ethernet is 40x faster than that (gig ethernet).

I'm really surprised they still use it.
 
I used to do compositions with a Korg M1...Cool Edit Pro, Cakewalk, some outboard gear...simple setup...my warning to anyone going into electronic production is to not overdue it....just because you can fill every track with percussion or synth pads....it's easy to muddy up tracks in the end. Eventually I got away from it...spent too much time editing and toying with knobs instead of playing organic instruments....I'm now back on the analog track...getting ready to record a dozen songs I've yet to get on tape....it's fascinating the possibilities, though and I did play around with more symphonic compositions with the digital stuff....now my gear is much simpler.....I never understood why someone would spend a fortune on synths and hours tweaking sounds to make a keyboard sound like a harmonica when a harmonica is about 5 bucks. I get interesting keyboard sounds running my keyboard through my guitar stomp boxes...Boss Bass Flangers are great for making Hammond B3 organs sound big....if not for computer digital recording I think I'd never have needed glasses....literally spent thousands of hours editing in front of a giant old monitor.....headphones didn't help my hearing either after a stretch.....take a break from the console every 45 minutes is recommended
 
Last edited:
Orion Bailey said:
I cant upload generic sounds into the XA
Click to expand...
you probably will end up buying sound cards for the XA and not loading them from another unit...midi will allow you to use either as a controller but probably just play the sounds in parallel...at least now synths talk to each other....when I started out Yamaha didn't talk to Roland or Korg.....now that's straightened out.
 
Denny Crane said:
MIDI is a ridiculously slow communication protocol. If you get enough instruments on the MIDI bus, you will notice a lot of lag - delays when a note should sound and when it does sound.

If you have a pitch wheel on that keyboard, using it will generate a ton of MIDI traffic, slowing things down even more.

MIDI is serial communications at 31.25kbits/sec. Broadband is at least 25mbit, or about 1000x faster. Ethernet is 40x faster than that (gig ethernet).

I'm really surprised they still use it.
Click to expand...

MIDI is fine, because the data being sent is minuscule. Yes Ethernet is faster but when a key press is msybe two bytes of data (key, velocity), what does it matter?
 
BlazerCaravan said:
MIDI is fine, because the data being sent is minuscule. Yes Ethernet is faster but when a key press is msybe two bytes of data (key, velocity), what does it matter?
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how miniscule. From the time you send data to the time it's received, even 3 bytes, is absolutely noticeable.

Over ethernet, I get < 1ms ping times. Over midi, those times are maybe 10ms, on an unloaded MIDI bus. If your message has to wait for a previous one to be sent, that delay is 20ms. It adds up.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/ele...on/415877-midi-latency-ever-noticeable-3.html

MIDI is serial - If you send lots of bytes on 1:1:1 they will be smeared. The Midi standard even prioritises notes by channel if I recall.

The issue is sending note and clock data, CCs and NRPNs all at once as mentioned above.

No matter how slight your jitter (which logically can never be absolutely 0) or low your latency - once it hits the midi cable bandwidth kicks in.
 
Denny Crane said:
It doesn't matter how miniscule. From the time you send data to the time it's received, even 3 bytes, is absolutely noticeable.

Over ethernet, I get < 1ms ping times. Over midi, those times are maybe 10ms, on an unloaded MIDI bus. If your message has to wait for a previous one to be sent, that delay is 20ms. It adds up.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/ele...on/415877-midi-latency-ever-noticeable-3.html

MIDI is serial - If you send lots of bytes on 1:1:1 they will be smeared. The Midi standard even prioritises notes by channel if I recall.

The issue is sending note and clock data, CCs and NRPNs all at once as mentioned above.

No matter how slight your jitter (which logically can never be absolutely 0) or low your latency - once it hits the midi cable bandwidth kicks in.
Click to expand...
most recording software has quantize function and because of those glitches however small...the programs line up the info as intended....they can make me play piano much better than I actually can for example....instead of performance...you enter the info..for midi purposes it doesn't need to be flawless but it's way faster now then it was in the 80s...that's for sure
 
3RA1N1AC said:
I just got the korg volca kick analog bass drum synth thingy. Super fun, booooooming bass on the PA. 24x18" subs don't hurt.
Click to expand...

Oh no... why... why did you have to post that? Now we're going to get a Dennyramble why a digital bass drum synth thingy is better than an analog bass drum synth thingy.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
If analog was rad Apple would make an analog computer.

- Denny Crane
Click to expand...

7QAPzbN.jpg
 
Meh, I kinda hate using the computer live, I'm all about analog drum machines and analog synths with acoustic instruments and looping. I have a boss rc300. Twisting knobs. Yeah I know.

For sequencing it's all about the computer though.
 
BlazerCaravan said:
I know what you're asking for and I thought I was giving you directions to do that. Midi out from the XA, into the SX. You just need to assign a note to the pads so that the SX knows what note to look for FROM the XA to trigger the pad. Pick the lowest notes on the XA so they're out of the way. This is how Jordan Rudess did it in the late 90's with his keyboard setup.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I read it wrong.
Midi always confuses me.
hmmm, im about to settle down and tinker some more. Ill see what I can get going via midi, but I had issues just getting PT12 to recognize the XA when trying to create a midi track. It only recognized as an instrument track.
 
Denny Crane said:
MIDI is a ridiculously slow communication protocol. If you get enough instruments on the MIDI bus, you will notice a lot of lag - delays when a note should sound and when it does sound.

If you have a pitch wheel on that keyboard, using it will generate a ton of MIDI traffic, slowing things down even more.

MIDI is serial communications at 31.25kbits/sec. Broadband is at least 25mbit, or about 1000x faster. Ethernet is 40x faster than that (gig ethernet).

I'm really surprised they still use it.
Click to expand...

So how would one transfer via Ethernet with these devices though?

riverman said:
Met Homer for a couple of beers last week at his golf tournament....great guy...impressive history in the music world...hope to get up to Portland in the years to come and bug all you musicians up there!
Click to expand...

Met him a couple times. I think you saw the vid of him on drums? I think I posted that right?

riverman said:
you probably will end up buying sound cards for the XA and not loading them from another unit...midi will allow you to use either as a controller but probably just play the sounds in parallel...at least now synths talk to each other....when I started out Yamaha didn't talk to Roland or Korg.....now that's straightened out.
Click to expand...
Nah, you just install them via USB and an app. ALmost all digital stuff is like that now.





riverman said:
most recording software has quantize function and because of those glitches however small...the programs line up the info as intended....they can make me play piano much better than I actually can for example....instead of performance...you enter the info..for midi purposes it doesn't need to be flawless but it's way faster now then it was in the 80s...that's for sure
Click to expand...

Yep.

3RA1N1AC said:
Meh, I kinda hate using the computer live, I'm all about analog drum machines and analog synths with acoustic instruments and looping. I have a boss rc300. Twisting knobs. Yeah I know.

For sequencing it's all about the computer though.
Click to expand...

Me too. I just want to play music. The more digital sequencing ans laptop requirements, can lead to more troubleshooting and delays due to malfunctioning equipment.
I'm not sure of all the options, but after some research and advice, the items I have should be fairly laptop free.

Maybe it comes down to getting a second trigger pad for me on stage, so I don't have to try to route the one the drummer will be using to the XA at all.
Then everything is going to the PA as analog signals ( via DI boxes). Or maybe is just trying to create a like sound within the XA that is close enough to the sound I want to upload into the trigger pad for me to try to trigger with the XA.

There should be road maps for this shit. lol.
 
Orion Bailey said:
Nah, you just install them via USB and an app. ALmost all digital stuff is like that now.
Click to expand...
yeah....I'm way out of the loop when it comes to this stuff now....I only know for something to sound the way I want it to....I need a really expensive microphone......I've used old SM58 ir SM 57s for all my home recordings.not really studio mikes...in the studios I've worked in the microphones were like baseball bats....you could record tapping on a beer can and it would come through a mix...engineering is an art I've never mastered...never gotten a real bass to record the way I want it to sound in most of my demos....Marcus Miller or Paul McCartney sounding..
 
riverman said:
yeah....I'm way out of the loop when it comes to this stuff now....I only know for something to sound the way I want it to....I need a really expensive microphone......I've used old SM58 ir SM 57s for all my home recordings.not really studio mikes...in the studios I've worked in the microphones were like baseball bats....you could record tapping on a beer can and it would come through a mix...engineering is an art I've never mastered...never gotten a real bass to record the way I want it to sound in most of my demos....Marcus Miller or Paul McCartney sounding..
Click to expand...

There is some really funky stuff going on when recording bass.
Case in point. I have many musicians over for jams that play my equipment, aside from my band.
One time we had two different bass players show up and both had their own basses. I record the bass direct via the xlr out in the back of the AMPeg VST. no levels or settings where changed.
Both bass players sounded great live in the room while jamming as far as I remember and thought that night.
However the recordings are completely different. One is much thinner and notes die out quicker. The other is much fuller, fulling the whole spectrum up and notes last forever.

The only thing I could think of is that they had much different pickup sounds, so the raw sound going to the recorder was much different, but the live sound differences were minimalized by going through the compression and EQ, making them both sound good live.

Its a lifetime of Lernt as Bigwhiney bitch would say. lol.
 
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