Awfully quiet about the snubs in here...

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Natebishop3 said:
Statistically, Dame is still up there with the best of the game. I'm never going to accept the All-Star game, a supposed weekend for the fans, as a way of patting guys on the back for winning games. That's not the spirit of the event.

If your argument starts out, "well that guy is better, but this guy's team won more games," then I feel like you understand the point of individual achievements.
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I get that but there are other factors other than just the numbers in black and white. In my opinion 21ppg @ the slowest pace in the NBA + being the driving force behind the best defensive team in the NBA(Gordon Hayward) is better than dame's resume as an example. Even though comparable numbers are being put up by maybe 30+ guys right now but Hayward deserves it more. It's about the individual but if youre putting up gaudy stats like dame is and youre team gets blown out every other night youre just not going to get any love around the league and that's just the way it goes. We want to call it politics or being in a small market but it's not, its a measure of success and the goal is to win the games.

Dame's stats ring hollow without wins.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Isn't this why we track overall stats though? Shouldn't it be the cumulative play of the entire first half of the season and not just "recently?"

Nobody has averaged what Dame is averaging and missed out. Nobody. Not ever. How can it not be a snub if he's putting up numbers that have always been selected to the team?
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There are 2 sides of the game in basketball. The terrible D can't be ignored.
 
chzbrgr said:
I get that but there are other factors other than just the numbers in black and white. In my opinion 21ppg @ the slowest pace in the NBA + being the driving force behind the best defensive team in the NBA(Gordon Hayward) is better than dame's resume as an example. Even though comparable numbers are being put up by maybe 30+ guys right now but Hayward deserves it more. It's about the individual but if youre putting up gaudy stats like dame is and youre team gets blown out every other night youre just not going to get any love around the league and that's just the way it goes. We want to call it politics or being in a small market but it's not, its a measure of success and the goal is to win the games.

Dame's stats ring hollow without wins.
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So last year, when we were overachieving and we made the second round of the playoffs... that wasn't good enough and he didn't make it.

This year, when we're underachieving, it's his fault and he didn't make it.

It's hard to take any of this seriously when the goal posts keep moving. Our roster is fundamentally broken. A bunch of dudes got paid, most of them are severely under-performing. Dame and CJ are the only dudes actually earning their paycheck right now. That's not Dame's fault.
 
I think the team record has to be a factor. Very good players on bad teams deserve to be an all star, because like you all say it is not necessarily their fault their team has a bad record. But very good players, who are on better deeper teams, also deserve to be on the team. Likewise it is not their fault they don't get as many shots as players who are on worse teams. Shouldn't the team performance/stats be as important as the individual performances/stats?

So for me...there is no question Dame and CJ deserved to be all stars....but so does Westbrook, Klay Thompson and Gordon Hayward (For the first time) It's a numbers game and they have to limit the number of players on the squad.
 
Natebishop3 said:
So last year, when we were overachieving and we made the second round of the playoffs... that wasn't good enough and he didn't make it.

This year, when we're underachieving, it's his fault and he didn't make it.

It's hard to take any of this seriously when the goal posts keep moving. Our roster is fundamentally broken. A bunch of dudes got paid, most of them are severely under-performing. Dame and CJ are the only dudes actually earning their paycheck right now. That's not Dame's fault.
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Last year was a UUUUGE snub there is really no debating it he was 2nd-team all NBA! That decision was terrible and only made by the fans i should add! I was pissed for weeks after last year and then dame went out and put the league on notice(which was f-ing awesome). I would be VERY surprised if he went out and did the same thing this year however.

Dame is the leader and fair or not when things are off the rails he gets the blame just like when things are good he gets all the credit. And by the way second team all NBA to the back to back MVP is about as high an honor as you can receive in that situation.
 
Rhal said:
Its definitely a snub, the only way its not is if you say its because of our record but then that negates Cousins and winning has not mattered that much the last 7 or so year when it comes to the ASG. You add in the fact Lillard is the only player in the last 30 years to avg 26 4 and 5 to not make the AS game and yes it is most definitely not just a snub but one bigger then last year.
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I'm not focusing on records at all. But random stat combinations like 26/4/5 aren't meaningful either. It leaves out issues like scoring efficiency, pace or defense. 26 PPG is definitely an impressive scoring average, but we should be beyond the point of judging a player's value by their raw points per game.

I think Lillard is All Star caliber, but a "snub" implies that he's a slam dunk All Star who got passed over and I don't think he is at all, completely ignoring team record. There were other All Star caliber players too and Lillard lost out to them. That's not a snub to me.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
I think the team record has to be a factor. Very good players on bad teams deserve to be an all star, because like you all say it is not necessarily their fault their team has a bad record. But very good players, who are on better deeper teams, also deserve to be on the team. Likewise it is not their fault they don't get as many shots as players who are on worse teams. Shouldn't the team performance/stats be as important as the individual performances/stats?

So for me...there is no question Dame and CJ deserved to be all stars....but so does Westbrook, Klay Thompson and Gordon Hayward (For the first time) It's a numbers game and they have to limit the number of players on the squad.
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I just think it's interesting because Klay Thompson played like absolute trash at the beginning of the season, but he improved as the season wore on and he made the team.

Dame played like a god at the beginning of the season, but he's currently in a slump and he didn't make the team.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Isn't this why we track overall stats though? Shouldn't it be the cumulative play of the entire first half of the season and not just "recently?"

Nobody has averaged what Dame is averaging and missed out. Nobody. Not ever. How can it not be a snub if he's putting up numbers that have always been selected to the team?
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Sure, but the people that vote are human and Dame has not been playing at an all star level lately. That's bound to influence their voting.

He's also playing at a time when the PG position is the deepest it's ever been. Dame wasn't the only PG that got snubbed. CP3 didn't make it and neither did Mike Conley. Both play for teams with much better records. Both are averaging more APG and shooting significantly better from 3-point range than Dame (.401 for Conley, .395 for Paul to .341 for Dame), and most importantly, both are light years better defensively than Dame. And, neither one of them made it either.

BNM
 
chzbrgr said:
still a better defender than dame by a factor of 10
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I'm going to disagree. Harden has been an absolute ghost on defense for his entire career. Hilariously bad on defense. Dame gets a lot of shit for his defense, but he wasn't THAT bad until recently.
 
1 - Snub?
2 - Care about a meaningless game / award?
3 - Not only meaningless, but unwatchable.
 
We should hold our own All Star Game for Dame.

I'll be Lebron on the EC team!
 
Natebishop3 said:
I'm going to disagree. Harden has been an absolute ghost on defense for his entire career. Hilariously bad on defense. Dame gets a lot of shit for his defense, but he wasn't THAT bad until recently.
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Yes he was; but by size and strength alone Harden is miles ahead of _ame (when he wants to be) _ame doesnt even have good defense he could play if he wanted to. That to me is the difference.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I just think it's interesting because Klay Thompson played like absolute trash at the beginning of the season, but he improved as the season wore on and he made the team.

Dame played like a god at the beginning of the season, but he's currently in a slump and he didn't make the team.
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By your own standard, if we consider performance to date, Klay is shooting .396 3FG% and .526 2FG% vs. Dame at .341 3FG% and .506 2FG% for the season. Dame is averaging 5 more PPG, but he's the #1 option on his team and Klay is the #3 option on his team. Klay is more efficient, plays defense and his team is 39-7.

BNM
 
Natebishop3 said:
I'm going to disagree. Harden has been an absolute ghost on defense for his entire career. Hilariously bad on defense. Dame gets a lot of shit for his defense, but he wasn't THAT bad until recently.
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But it is bad; very, very bad.

Harden scores 3 more PPG, hands out twice as many assists (leads the entire league, Dame's not even in the top 20) and averages twice as many rebounds. And his team is 34-15.

Yeah, I hate Harden, but the facts speak for themselves.

BNM
 
Minstrel said:
I'm not focusing on records at all. But random stat combinations like 26/4/5 aren't meaningful either. It leaves out issues like scoring efficiency, pace or defense. 26 PPG is definitely an impressive scoring average, but we should be beyond the point of judging a player's value by their raw points per game.

I think Lillard is All Star caliber, but a "snub" implies that he's a slam dunk All Star who got passed over and I don't think he is at all, completely ignoring team record. There were other All Star caliber players too and Lillard lost out to them. That's not a snub to me.
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LMFAO.

Sorry, but if you're putting up the next offensive stats out of any player to ever not make the all-star game, then you're a snub. Plain and simple.
 
BonesJones said:
Sorry, but if you're putting up the next offensive stats out of any player to ever not make the all-star game, then you're a snub. Plain and simple.
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Factoids like that aren't that compelling, in my opinion. Someone has to have "the best offensive stats out of all players not making the All Star team." If Lillard had made it, it would be the next person on the list. Would that guy (whomever he is) then be a snub? If that guy made an All Star team, then the next guy would be. And on and on.

I prefer to look at the entirety of a player's value in determining if he's a snub. Based on his overall offensive and defensive value, I think he's among a group of players who are All Star caliber but not no-doubt All Stars. Lillard could have been selected of that group, and that would have been great. I don't think it's an injustice that he wasn't.
 
"Hey, you did really good work on that report 6 months ago. But these reports lately you've been giving me have not been up to that. Ah, what the hell, we'll let you in to the office all stars for that thing you did 6 months ago."

It's what you've done for me lately. People remember that more than what you did months ago. It's a society thing.

Dame has hit untold amount of great shots in his career already. But .9 is a distant (albeit amazing) memory when lately he's been bad.

Trade Dame threads weren't happening when he was putting up 30 a game... hitting clutch shots. It's when he started to regress lately. Its not a coincidence with that... or that he didn't get an AS nod.

It's not a snub. Not even close. Cumulative does not mean consistently.
 
chzbrgr said:
still a better defender than dame by a factor of 10
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"Hello, credibility? This is chzbrgr. Yeah, you know, from RipCityTwo.com. Go fuck yourself, I never want to see you again. I have a restraining order."
 
Lillard has made two all NBA team. This could be his 3rd. It represents his accomplishments for the whole season, not half the season. How many make it for All NBA? 15? While the All star team has 24....

I would argue the All NBA team is much more prestigious and you can spend the week in Hawaii instead.
 
Pinwheel1 said:
Lillard has made two all NBA team. This could be his 3rd. It represents his accomplishments for the whole season, not half the season. How many make it for All NBA? 15? While the All star team has 24....

I would argue the All NBA team is much more prestigious and you can spend the week in Hawaii instead.
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I agree. All-NBA is league-wide. It's like the difference between All-Pro and Pro Bowl in the NFL--All-Pro is more prestigious.

People really just need to look at the All Star game as a fun exhibition game, rather than as serious analysis and evaluation. In fact, I wish the NBA hadn't muddied the waters by adding a players' and coaches' vote for the starters. I'd rather the starters (and, in fact, the whole roster) were chosen by fans. That makes it elegant and clear--this isn't to honor the best players by deep statistical analysis. This is to honor players that people want to see play. Period.

Look to All-NBA for "serious awards."
 
BonesJones said:
LMFAO.

Sorry, but if you're putting up the best offensive stats out of any player to ever not make the all-star game, then you're a snub. Plain and simple.
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Thing is, the narrative is not true.

In 2010, there was a west guard who was left off the all-star team despite averages of 26, 5.6, and 4.3 at the time while leading the league in mpg, primarily because he was a terrible defender on a sub .500 team. Further, despite three injury replacements, he still was left off, even being beaten out by the Denver-edition of Chauncey Billups. His scoring average dipped to 25.5 before the season was over, thus him not coming up in these statistical queries, but his first half performance that year matched Dame's this season.

We've seen this player's name brought up many times in relation to our squad, so it's not shocking that he comes up again. As a player, and as an all-star snub, whom does Dame appear to most closely approximate?

None other than Monta Ellis.
 
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