Should we worry about Toumani? (2 Viewers)

[riverman]

In the words of Terry Stotts....you want to be playing better in March than in November.

 

[wizenheimer]

Blazer fans do this. Anoint a guy as an incredible player way too soon. We saw it with fucking summer league Yang. Camara is a good defender (i guess). But that’s about it. He then became the cornerstone of the team and untouchable.

yeah, the overrating has been happening for at least a couple of decades. Overrating players because they were drafted by Portland or added while young; doing so because of some hot streaks, career games, and temporary solid play viewed thru a homerific lens. Hot streaks that weren't sustainable

Travis Outlaw (I was guilty of this)
Sebastian Telfaire
Martell Webster
Sergio Rodriguez
Channing Frye
James Jones
Rudy Fernandez
Jerryd Bayless
Dante Cunningham
JJ Hickson
Luke Babbitt
Meyers Leonard
TRob
Allan Crabbe
Mo Harkless
Noah Vonleh
Jake Layman
Zach Collins
Gary Trent Jr
Anfernee Simons
Jusuf Nurkic (remember 'Nurk Fever'?)
Nasir Little

with almost no exceptions these are players whose career arcs were visible by the middle of their 2nd years in the league; and these are players who could obviously never alter the trajectory of a team. Yet, at various times early in their careers there were fans projecting great things for them

Now, I'm not sure if the first 148 games of Camara's career are more predictive of his future than the last 19 game. If I had to guess I'd lean toward the larger sample size. Obviously Camara is struggling this season, but shooting issues probably shouldn't impact his defense, but it seems to have

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

yeah, the overrating has been happening for at least a couple of decades. Overrating players because they were drafted by Portland or added while young; doing so because of some hot streaks, career games, and temporary solid play viewed thru a homerific lens. Hot streaks that weren't sustainable

Travis Outlaw (I was guilty of this)
Sebastian Telfaire
Martell Webster
Sergio Rodriguez
Channing Frye
James Jones
Rudy Fernandez
Jerryd Bayless
Dante Cunningham
JJ Hickson
Luke Babbitt
Meyers Leonard
TRob
Allan Crabbe
Mo Harkless
Noah Vonleh
Jake Layman
Zach Collins
Gary Trent Jr
Anfernee Simons
Jusuf Nurkic (remember 'Nurk Fever'?)
Nasir Little

with almost no exceptions these are players whose career arcs were visible by the middle of their 2nd years in the league; and these are players who could obviously never alter the trajectory of a team. Yet, at various times early in their careers there were fans projecting great things for them

Now, I'm not sure if the first 148 games of Camara's career are more predictive of his future than the last 19 game. If I had to guess I'd lean toward the larger sample size. Obviously Camara is struggling this season, but shooting issues probably shouldn't impact his defense, but it seems to have

Jarrett Jack!
Armon Johnson!
Qyntel Woods
Elliot Williams
Nolan Smith

"LET THE CAKE BAKE"

Jabari Walker is one guy that got unwarranted hate around these parts. I never got that. He was what he was. He is a fine 10th-12th man that can play with energy. Which is actually a decent pick in the late 2nd round. I like Jabari and hope he continues to carve out a nice career.

 

[Chris Craig]

yeah, the overrating has been happening for at least a couple of decades. Overrating players because they were drafted by Portland or added while young; doing so because of some hot streaks, career games, and temporary solid play viewed thru a homerific lens. Hot streaks that weren't sustainable

Travis Outlaw (I was guilty of this)
Sebastian Telfaire
Martell Webster
Sergio Rodriguez
Channing Frye
James Jones
Rudy Fernandez
Jerryd Bayless
Dante Cunningham
JJ Hickson
Luke Babbitt
Meyers Leonard
TRob
Allan Crabbe
Mo Harkless
Noah Vonleh
Jake Layman
Zach Collins
Gary Trent Jr
Anfernee Simons
Jusuf Nurkic (remember 'Nurk Fever'?)
Nasir Little

with almost no exceptions these are players whose career arcs were visible by the middle of their 2nd years in the league; and these are players who could obviously never alter the trajectory of a team. Yet, at various times early in their careers there were fans projecting great things for them

Now, I'm not sure if the first 148 games of Camara's career are more predictive of his future than the last 19 game. If I had to guess I'd lean toward the larger sample size. Obviously Camara is struggling this season, but shooting issues probably shouldn't impact his defense, but it seems to have

The Blazers post 90's draft history is pretty terrible other than Dame. That list is fucking depressing and it doesn't even include the worst of it. Guys like Sergei Monia, Ha Seung Jin, Joel Freeland, Victor Claver...etc etc

 

[PCmor7]

We also drafted Aldridge, Roy, Batum ... Oden was a miss because of his injuries and it looks worse because of how Durant turned out, but no one in the Blazers' position was picking anyone other than Oden, who, when he was healthy, was as advertised.

I don't know who was overrating some of these other guys that were mentioned. I guess a few fans might have thought Nolan Smith and Jake Layman would be great, but it had to be a pretty isolated minority. There's a difference between seeing that a player might have value to the rotation or thinking we got good value and they might overperform their draft position and being happy with that and actually thinking they were all-star level or close to it. Basically, we mentioned just about everyone the Blazers drafted, and that includes late first rounders and second rounders.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

We also drafted Aldridge, Roy, Batum ... Oden was a miss because of his injuries and it looks worse because of how Durant turned out, but no one in the Blazers' position was picking anyone other than Oden, who, when he was healthy, was as advertised.

I don't know who was overrating some of these other guys that were mentioned. I guess a few fans might have thought Nolan Smith and Jake Layman would be great, but it had to be a pretty isolated minority. There's a difference between seeing that a player might have value to the rotation or thinking we got good value and they might overperform their draft position and being happy with that and actually thinking they were all-star level or close to it. Basically, we mentioned just about everyone the Blazers drafted, and that includes late first rounders and second rounders.

I don't remember if you posted on basketballboards.net, and it appears your account has been here since 2014. It was insufferable. Lots of chest bumping how amazing our moves were and how we pritchslapped everyone.

 

[Chris Craig]

We also drafted Aldridge, Roy, Batum ... Oden was a miss because of his injuries and it looks worse because of how Durant turned out, but no one in the Blazers' position was picking anyone other than Oden, who, when he was healthy, was as advertised.

I don't know who was overrating some of these other guys that were mentioned. I guess a few fans might have thought Nolan Smith and Jake Layman would be great, but it had to be a pretty isolated minority. There's a difference between seeing that a player might have value to the rotation or thinking we got good value and they might overperform their draft position and being happy with that and actually thinking they were all-star level or close to it. Basically, we mentioned just about everyone the Blazers drafted, and that includes late first rounders and second rounders.

We traded for Aldridge, Roy, and Batum. Oden was never healthy, not really. It's been out there that the Blazers knew his knees were shot and still drafted him.

 

[blazerkor]

I really like Tou. A problem that I see throughout the team is shot selection. There is no fucking way Toumani Camara should be taking step back and side step three point shots.

Again it's not just him. At some point Shaedon might have those shots in his bag so I can give him time but only taking one or two fo them a game. The rest of these very mid three point shooters like Tou need to just take the open set jumpers that they can hit 37% of. No more of the shit that really only The Beard and Luka are going to be good with.

 

[PCmor7]

I don't remember if you posted on basketballboards.net, and it appears your account has been here since 2014. It was insufferable. Lots of chest bumping how amazing our moves were and how we pritchslapped everyone.

I was at Oregon Live until I got trolled incessantly by a couple of posters who said I was someone else using a fake account and the mods not doing anything about it. I've been a Blazers fan since the Sidney Wicks days.

I remember the Prtich-slapping stuff, but I think it was just fans having fun and pretty warranted with how he played the draft and managed to get Roy and Aldridge the same year with the wheeling and dealing. After what the fanbase had been through, I didn't blame a few of them getting excited about what the team was doing, and I guess I just don't expect everyone to be perfectly reserved, logically and informed on every player and prospect. But I also don't remember some huge contingent of Blazer fans thinking Armon Johnson was going to be an all-star. Excited that he or any player we acquired could help the team succeed? Sure? Why not? Why not be optimistic? Every team's message board pro or college is like that. I didn't notice anything from Blazers fans that was over-the-top different from anywhere else. Why not be excited when you're bringing someone new in that they could help make the team good or be the missing piece that puts them over the top? If you can't at least be a little excited about a draft pick or acquisition, that seems to be a pretty sad fandom ... it'd make me even wonder if supporting a team was someone I'd want to do with my time, because being dour and overanalyzing everything just doesn't seem particularly healthy.

 

[PCmor7]

We traded for Aldridge, Roy, and Batum. Oden was never healthy, not really. It's been out there that the Blazers knew his knees were shot and still drafted him.

That's pedantic, Chris. We traded for the picks but the people making the choices were the Blazers. You know that's how the draft works. We knew they were going to be Blazers on draft night.

To act like the Blazers "knew" Oden's "knees were shot and still drafted him" is just silly. What possible reason would a team have to draft a player they knew would barely ever play? I'm sure they knew there was risk, but so did everyone else that was working the draft for an NBA team and not one of them thought the risk about Oden's knees was so concerning that they would have drafted anyone else first. No one whose job was on the line for making that pick was going to pick anyone other than Oden, not even Durant.

To suggest someone whose livelihood was potentially on the line was picking a player they knew probably never would be able to contribute is implausible. If you're going to rail that fans were excited to draft Nolan Smith without warrant, using the idea that a team picked a player broken beyond repair with the first pick when there was a probable all-star on the board, too, or even a chance to trade the pick seems just as warrantless.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

I was at Oregon Live until I got trolled incessantly by a couple of posters who said I was someone else using a fake account and the mods not doing anything about it. I've been a Blazers fan since the Sidney Wicks days.

I remember the Prtich-slapping stuff, but I think it was just fans having fun and pretty warranted with how he played the draft and managed to get Roy and Aldridge the same year with the wheeling and dealing. After what the fanbase had been through, I didn't blame a few of them getting excited about what the team was doing, and I guess I just don't expect everyone to be perfectly reserved, logically and informed on every player and prospect. But I also don't remember some huge contingent of Blazer fans thinking Armon Johnson was going to be an all-star. Excited that he or any player we acquired could help the team succeed? Sure? Why not? Why not be optimistic? Every team's message board pro or college is like that. I didn't notice anything from Blazers fans that was over-the-top different from anywhere else. Why not be excited when you're bringing someone new in that they could help make the team good or be the missing piece that puts them over the top? If you can't at least be a little excited about a draft pick or acquisition, that seems to be a pretty sad fandom ... it'd make me even wonder if supporting a team was someone I'd want to do with my time, because being dour and overanalyzing everything just doesn't seem particularly healthy.

Of course people will be excited over new and young players.

Its the overvaluing and unwillingness to be open to moving them for logical upgrades that was annoying.

Part of the game should be using peak level talent to explore upgrades.

When we had guys like Sergio, Rudy, Bayless etc. There were people that said "let the cake bake" over and over and over without being able to accept or acknowledge any other path being available to becoming a winning franchise.

 

[PCmor7]

Of course people will be excited over new and young players.

Its the overvaluing and unwillingness to be open to moving them for logical upgrades that was annoying.

Part of the game should be using peak level talent to explore upgrades.

When we had guys like Sergio, Rudy, Bayless etc. There were people that said "let the cake bake" over and over and over without being able to accept or acknowledge any other path being available to becoming a winning franchise.

What fan base doesn't do this? I might see your point if we were professionals doing this for a living sitting in a conference room arguing over the better player or better direction, but close to 100% of this board doesn't fit that.

I still disagree that there was a majority of Blazer fans or even a significant amount that thought Jake Layman or Viktor Khryapa or players like them were vital pieces that were overrated. Layman, for instance, fit a need on the roster and had his moments, and, as a second round pick, that's pretty good, because most second rounders don't even do that. Khryapa, IIRC, was a consensus first-round prospect before the Blazers selected him.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems a weird flex to me to bust on some Blazer fans for acting like, you know, fans, and then using hindsight to show they need to be either better informed or more reserved in liking their players and their team.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

What fan base doesn't do this? I might see your point if we were professionals doing this for a living sitting in a conference room arguing over the better player or better direction, but close to 100% of this board doesn't fit that.

I still disagree that there was a majority of Blazer fans or even a significant amount that thought Jake Layman or Viktor Khryapa or players like them were vital pieces that were overrated. Layman, for instance, fit a need on the roster and had his moments, and, as a second round pick, that's pretty good, because most second rounders don't even do that. Khryapa, IIRC, was a consensus first-round prospect before the Blazers selected him.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems a weird flex to me to bust on some Blazer fans for acting like, you know, fans, and then using hindsight to show they need to be either better informed or more reserved in liking their players and their team.

Its not a flex lol. It is how the board was, especially during those times.

Fans can do whatever they want. I'm not trying to dictate what fans do. It just was annoying. Are you dictating that it can't be annoying?

No matter if fans overvalue or undervalue our players, they can do so. And fans of the same team can be annoyed no matter what side you are on.

I've seen fans get ran out of here for being too pessimistic and not overly optimistic. And vice versa.

 

[kjironman1]

I kind of think people forget he draws the toughest player to guard every single game the team plays.

 

[wizenheimer]

I kind of think people forget he draws the toughest player to guard every single game the team plays.

that's been the case since he was elevated to starter in his rookie season. That's how he made the all-Defense 2nd team last year. He won't make it this season at this rate

 

[GoZers]

We also drafted Aldridge, Roy, Batum ... Oden was a miss because of his injuries and it looks worse because of how Durant turned out, but no one in the Blazers' position was picking anyone other than Oden, who, when he was healthy, was as advertised.

I don't know who was overrating some of these other guys that were mentioned. I guess a few fans might have thought Nolan Smith and Jake Layman would be great, but it had to be a pretty isolated minority. There's a difference between seeing that a player might have value to the rotation or thinking we got good value and they might overperform their draft position and being happy with that and actually thinking they were all-star level or close to it. Basically, we mentioned just about everyone the Blazers drafted, and that includes late first rounders and second rounders.

Ha I remember Layman had a good stretch for a week or so and you would have thought we had the next Bird

 

[kjironman1]

that's been the case since he was elevated to starter in his rookie season. That's how he made the all-Defense 2nd team last year. He won't make it this season at this rate

Can’t say you are wrong but the season is young still. He’s playing hard and is making a bunch of good plays against the very best players.
Not sure we should give up on him yet.

 

[wizenheimer]

Can’t say you are wrong but the season is young still. He’s playing hard and is making a bunch of good plays against the very best players.
Not sure we should give up on him yet.

I'm not saying give up on him. He's obviously struggling on both ends of the court so far, but he can certainly turn that around. He's way out of sync for some reason. Now, it is possible he got a bit overrated, but he was really good on defense over his first 2 seasons and has been bad this season. I'm more inclined to trust the much larger sample size, but there are reasons for concern

 

[PCmor7]

Its not a flex lol. It is how the board was, especially during those times.

Fans can do whatever they want. I'm not trying to dictate what fans do. It just was annoying. Are you dictating that it can't be annoying?

No matter if fans overvalue or undervalue our players, they can do so. And fans of the same team can be annoyed no matter what side you are on.

I've seen fans get ran out of here for being too pessimistic and not overly optimistic. And vice versa.

I agree it can be annoying, if we let it be. We only control ourselves. I just think we're on a forum where fans show their enthusiasm in whatever manner they so choose, it's kind of shooting the bell cow to dampen their enthusiasm about a player's potential, whether they're on a hot streak or just got drafted.

What triggered my response in the beginning is two mods basically listing every player that suited up for the Blazers this century that hasn't turned into a star and acting like there was some major wave of homeristic optimism that they were going to be stars at some point. There wasn't for almost all those guys. And a lot of those guys were solid role players for the team.

But it's pretty easy to say so and so wasn't a star 10-20 years later and remember a couple of fans that thought or hoped he'd become a really good player for us and then it becomes the legend that the entire board lost their minds over the potential.

And, again, if there was any fanbase out there that didn't act the same way, then I think the criticism would be justified. I've just been doing these message boards for a bunch of teams with fans of those teams and often fans of their rivals for about 30 years now, and this has always been how its been.

 

[PCmor7]

Ha I remember Layman had a good stretch for a week or so and you would have thought we had the next Bird

He had a stretch in his third year that lasted about six weeks where he scored double figures in 13 of 19 games when the Blazers went 12-7. Three of the times he didn't score at least 10 during that stretch were in the first five games.

His effective FG% that season was 57.9%, the first of three straight years he was 52.0% or better.

This is what I mean about people misremembering players as worse than they were and misremembering the fan's being excited for someone as more off-base than it really was.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

I agree it can be annoying, if we let it be. We only control ourselves. I just think we're on a forum where fans show their enthusiasm in whatever manner they so choose, it's kind of shooting the bell cow to dampen their enthusiasm about a player's potential, whether they're on a hot streak or just got drafted.

What triggered my response in the beginning is two mods basically listing every player that suited up for the Blazers this century that hasn't turned into a star and acting like there was some major wave of homeristic optimism that they were going to be stars at some point. There wasn't for almost all those guys. And a lot of those guys were solid role players for the team.

But it's pretty easy to say so and so wasn't a star 10-20 years later and remember a couple of fans that thought or hoped he'd become a really good player for us and then it becomes the legend that the entire board lost their minds over the potential.

And, again, if there was any fanbase out there that didn't act the same way, then I think the criticism would be justified. I've just been doing these message boards for a bunch of teams with fans of those teams and often fans of their rivals for about 30 years now, and this has always been how its been.

So if posters aren't optimistic, is that annoying too? I think we all can agree we see posters getting called out for being more pessimistic.

Nobody is saying Fans can't be optimistic. All we were saying was that fans held players as untouchable at times without reason. Which is true. Fans can look at Fandom differently and thats OK. I can sit here and think of all the ways I want to improve the team because I don't care about individual players as much as I care about the team. And some fans can sit there and say they don't care if we win as long as we have their favorite player.

This is a forum bro. I've been around with many of these people decades. I've seen it all and it was especially bad during the Roy, Aldridge, Sergio, Rudy, Bayless era.

I'm not sure what being a mod has to do with anything. I'm a fan just like the rest of you and can have my own opinions.