Awfully quiet about the snubs in here...

[BlazerWookee]

Thing is, the narrative is not true.

In 2010, there was a west guard who was left off the all-star team despite averages of 26, 5.6, and 4.3 at the time, primarily because he was a terrible defender on a sub .500 team. Further, despite three injury replacements, he still was left off, even being beaten out by the Denver-edition of Chauncey Billups. His scoring average dipped to 25.5 before the season was over, thus him not coming up in these statistical queries, but his first half performance that year matched Dame's this season.

We've seen this player's name brought up many times in relation to our squad, so it's not shocking that he comes up again. As a player, and as an all-star snub, whom does Dame appear to most closely approximate?

None other than Monta Ellis.

Yeah, but Ellis is kind of a dildo.

 

[Natebishop3]

Sure, but the people that vote are human and Dame has not been playing at an all star level lately. That's bound to influence their voting.

He's also playing at a time when the PG position is the deepest it's ever been. Dame wasn't the only PG that got snubbed. CP3 didn't make it and neither did Mike Conley. Both play for teams with much better records. Both are averaging more APG and shooting significantly better from 3-point range than Dame (.401 for Conley, .395 for Paul to .341 for Dame), and most importantly, both are light years better defensively than Dame. And, neither one of them made it either.

BNM

Paul is hurt. I have to think that played a part.

Conley's numbers are..... boring. He's just not that great at any one thing. He's a solid scorer. A solid passer. A solid defender. But he's not really exceptional at anything. Look at his stats.

18.6 ppg
6.2 assists
3.8 rebounds

He's shooting 43% from the field. He's a very solid starter, but an All-Star?

 

[Natebishop3]

I guess we have finally reached that part of the cycle.

Acquire player---------------->Love player---------------->Shit on player (we're here)------------------> Trade player or player leaves.

 

[Minstrel]

Paul is hurt. I have to think that played a part.

Conley's numbers are..... boring. He's just not that great at any one thing. He's a solid scorer. A solid passer. A solid defender. But he's not really exceptional at anything. Look at his stats.

18.6 ppg
6.2 assists
3.8 rebounds

He's shooting 43% from the field. He's a very solid starter, but an All-Star?

Okay, but once you start discussing excitement rather than overall value, you're moving towards "voting for who you'd like to see rather than who's best."

How does Conley's defense boost those numbers you quoted? Also, while his field goal percentage is low, his TS% (which accounts for free throws and three-pointers) is .571. Pretty close to Lillard's .581. Lillard is the better scorer (better efficiency over more shots) but Conley's no slouch and also brings strong defense.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Whether or not you feel like Dame needs the rest, I'm a little surprised nobody is talking about it.

Wasn't really snubbed.

 

[Natebishop3]

Okay, but once you start discussing excitement rather than overall value, you're moving towards "voting for who you'd like to see rather than who's best."

How does Conley's defense boost those numbers you quoted? Also, while his field goal percentage is low, his TS% (which accounts for free throws and three-pointers) is .571. Pretty close to Lillard's .581. Lillard is the better scorer (better efficiency over more shots) but Conley's no slouch and also brings strong defense.

You disregarded my point that he's not really exceptional at anything. Lillard has proven to be one of the best scorers in the league over the last two years. What is Conley one of the best at? I mean..... if it's defense that's great, but being a defensive stopper has never really been enough to warrant an All-Star spot for a guard.

 

[Haakzilla]

...does that mean he wants Dame DOLLA to perform at the All-Star game?!

 

[BonesJones]

Factoids like that aren't that compelling, in my opinion. Someone has to have "the best offensive stats out of all players not making the All Star team." If Lillard had made it, it would be the next person on the list. Would that guy (whomever he is) then be a snub? If that guy made an All Star team, then the next guy would be. And on and on.

I'm not talking about this year, I'm talking about EVER...

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Regarding all-time all-star snubs, I don't think anyone matches Kareem in '78. Missed the first month of the season, but still was putting up 30/13 over 2 months by the time the ASG came about. (NBA champions) Walton and Lucas got in, but Kareem didn't.

Only all-star game he missed in his entire career.

 

[Minstrel]

I'm not talking about this year, I'm talking about EVER...

I meant ever too. Someone has to have the "best offensive stats of a non-All Star ever." It doesn't automatically make that person a snub.

 

[Minstrel]

You disregarded my point that he's not really exceptional at anything. Lillard has proven to be one of the best scorers in the league over the last two years. What is Conley one of the best at? I mean..... if it's defense that's great, but being a defensive stopper has never really been enough to warrant an All-Star spot for a guard.

That's all wrapped up in how sexy a pick a player is. I don't know what the cut-off for "exceptional" is, but even if Conley isn't exceptional at any single thing (except, perhaps, defense) he can still have more total value than a player who is exceptional at one thing, but extremely deficient at something else.

This is akin to an observation Bill James made about the Hall of Fame (in baseball), which is that a player who was quietly strong across the board is generally a lot less likely to make the Hall of Fame relative to a player who wasn't good at everything, and even terrible at some things, but was great at one thing. Specialists get more credit than generalists, even if the generalist was more valuable overall.

 

[Minstrel]

Regarding all-time all-star snubs, I don't think anyone matches Kareem in '78. Missed the first month of the season, but still was putting up 30/13 over 2 months by the time the ASG came about. (NBA champions) Walton and Lucas got in, but Kareem didn't.

Only all-star game he missed in his entire career.

No wonder Kareem fled to LA, so he could compete with the glamor market that is Portland.

 

[Strenuus]

I guess we have finally reached that part of the cycle.

Acquire player---------------->Love player---------------->Shit on player (we're here)------------------> Trade player or player leaves.

Who said we were at the latter stages of that?

And lately, has his play not warranted at least some critique?

It's okay, he's still a great player.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

No wonder Kareem fled to LA, so he could compete with the glamor market that is Portland.

You know, if that hadn't been his third year as a Laker, that would have been a perfect explanation.

 

[Minstrel]

You know, if that hadn't been his third year as a Laker, that would have been a perfect explanation.

Okay. No wonder he changed his name. Better?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Okay. No wonder he changed his name. Better?

You teenagers and your ignorance of history...

GET OFF MY LAWN!!

 

[Natebishop3]

Who said we were at the latter stages of that?

And lately, has his play not warranted at least some critique?

It's okay, he's still a great player.

Because no player will ever live up to the expectations that this fanbase sets for them. Not Brandon Roy. Not LaMarcus Aldridge. Not Rasheed Wallace. Can't we just be happy to have a really good player at a position where we used to have Nolan Smith?

 

[Strenuus]

Because no player will ever live up to the expectations that this fanbase sets for them. Not Brandon Roy. Not LaMarcus Aldridge. Not Rasheed Wallace. Can't we just be happy to have a really good player at a position where we used to have Nolan Smith?

Brandon Roy did live up to it.

It was his knees that didn't.

 

[Minstrel]

You teenagers and your ignorance of history...

GET OFF MY LAWN!!

My alternate answer was going be: I wasn't talking about his college career...

 

[Minstrel]

Because no player will ever live up to the expectations that this fanbase sets for them. Not Brandon Roy. Not LaMarcus Aldridge. Not Rasheed Wallace. Can't we just be happy to have a really good player at a position where we used to have Nolan Smith?

I really liked Roy, Aldridge and Sheed. I really like Lillard.

"Really like" isn't the same as thinking that Lillard is Moses Malone reborn.

 

[Natebishop3]

Brandon Roy did live up to it.

It was his knees that didn't.

Roy had his faults, and there was certainly some controversy surrounding who he wanted to play point guard between Miller and Blake. There are still people who hold some bad feelings about how he left. I'm pretty sure Quick has talked about how Brandon changed with stardom.

 

[Trackjack]

Sure, but the people that vote are human and Dame has not been playing at an all star level lately. That's bound to influence their voting.

He's also playing at a time when the PG position is the deepest it's ever been. Dame wasn't the only PG that got snubbed. CP3 didn't make it and neither did Mike Conley. Both play for teams with much better records. Both are averaging more APG and shooting significantly better from 3-point range than Dame (.401 for Conley, .395 for Paul to .341 for Dame), and most importantly, both are light years better defensively than Dame. And, neither one of them made it either.

BNM

CP3 is hurt

 

[Trackjack]

The all star game it like the WWE it a show that it. I rather our players get the rest and heal up than go to something that is a joke of basketball. There no defense it just high lite reel. Matter fact I don't even watch the game.

 

[Blazers Roy]

It pains me to say, but i don't think Lillard deserved it this year.
He's not a good defender, he didn't play particularly smart at times and CJ looked like the better player for the last few weeks now.

Maybe he can use it as constructive criticism which help him get better.

 

[Strenuus]

Roy had his faults, and there was certainly some controversy surrounding who he wanted to play point guard between Miller and Blake. There are still people who hold some bad feelings about how he left. I'm pretty sure Quick has talked about how Brandon changed with stardom.

But we're talking about how he was when he was here.

And he was fucking great.

 

[Strenuus]

It pains me to say, but i don't think Lillard deserved it this year.
He's not a good defender, he didn't play particularly smart at times and CJ looked liked the better player for the last few weeks now.

Maybe he can use it as constructive criticism which help him get better.

It's the truth.

 

[BonesJones]

I meant ever too. Someone has to have the "best offensive stats of a non-All Star ever." It doesn't automatically make that person a snub.

With that logic, then it's impossible for anyone to get snubbed.

If Westbrook didn't make it, you could also say "well, someone has to have the best offensive stats of a non-All star ever"...

 

[Minstrel]

With that logic, then it's impossible for anyone to get snubbed.

If Westbrook didn't make it, you could also say "well, someone has to have the best offensive stats of a non-All star ever"...

I wasn't saying that you can't be snubbed if you had the best stats ever for a non-All Star. I was saying it doesn't automatically make you a snub.

Overall value is what determines whether a player is a snub, not a factoid about "best stats ever" or "only player ever to reach 26/4/5 exactly" for a non-All Star. Westbrook has provided a ton more value this season than Lillard, so yes, if he didn't make the All Star game, he'd be a snub. Not because he'd have "the best stats ever for a non-All Star" but because he provides way too much value for there to be any argument against his inclusion.

In my opinion, Lillard doesn't reach that no-doubt level of production once you include his defense. I think Lillard had a solid argument for being an All Star, but so did the players chosen over him. He plays a deep position, he has a huge weakness and his offense, while great, isn't overwhelming enough to overcome that (as it is for, say, James Harden). In my opinion.

 

[BonesJones]

I wasn't saying that you can't be snubbed if you had the best stats ever for a non-All Star. I was saying it doesn't automatically make you a snub.

Overall value is what determines whether a player is a snub, not a factoid about "best stats ever" or "only player ever to reach 26/4/5 exactly" for a non-All Star. Westbrook has provided a ton more value this season than Lillard, so yes, if he didn't make the All Star game, he'd be a snub. Not because he'd have "the best stats ever for a non-All Star" but because he provides way too much value for there to be any argument against his inclusion.

In my opinion, Lillard doesn't reach that no-doubt level of production once you include his defense. I think Lillard had a solid argument for being an All Star, but so did the players chosen over him. He plays a deep position, he has a huge weakness and his offense, while great, isn't overwhelming enough to overcome that (as it is for, say, James Harden). In my opinion.

If you're the best out of all the players to not make the all-star team, then you have to be considered a snub. Otherwise, the other players can't be considered snubs either because they were having worse seasons.

26ppg and 6 assists isn't overwhelming? OK. Lillard has one below average (For his standards) stretch in his career and all of a sudden his 26ppg isn't "overwhelming" anymore. James Harden has an insanely high usage rate. Lillard doesn't have as high of a usage rate. The difference isn't as much as it suggests.

Hayward, Green, Jordan, and Thompson were all guys that SHOULDN'T have been picked over Lillard but were because of their team success (which I think is bullshit to select a guy based off his team).

 

[Minstrel]

If you're the best out of all the players to not make the all-star team, then you have to be considered a snub.

Only if you're clearly better than guys who made it. He wasn't unarguably the best, though, nor was he clearly better than players who made the team. He was in the argument with guys like Hayward, Jordan, Thompson, Gobert, etc. It wouldn't have been wrong for him to make it, nor is it wrong for him not to make it.

Defense does matter to value. It's not like Lillard is even an average defender. He's a way below average defender, so that leeches away some of the positive value he brings with his offense.