Baffled and Confounded by the "Hickson Situation"

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Fun thread to post this; me debating Canzano on twitter:

JC: Kenneth Faried ... why can't Portland get guys like that?

TB: Hickson is a lot like "that." Just sayin

TB: But, point taken re: Nolan Smith bust

TB: Check this out http://bkref.com/tiny/M1QSW

JC: Take a look at Hickson's +/- ... dismal.

TB: So they're not alike at all? DEN as a team +3.8ppg. POR -2.9. Not fair to use +/-.

JC: You take Hickson. I'll take Faried. It's not close.

JC: Faried doing this on a deep team that will be the No. 4 seed in the West. Hickson doing it on the thinnest team in the West.

TB: Not saying Hickson is better. Just rebutting that we don't have "anyone like" KF. Same MPG so I don't get your depth point

JC: It was a joke. As in, why can't Portland get guys like that... when they passed on him.

TB: Got the joke, responded in kind ("Just sayin"). Even tipped my hat to the Nolan dig.

Just some good old fashioned devil's advocate, holding our columnists accountable for their tweets. Of course Faried > Hickson is a no-brainer; I was just highlighting their "similarity." We've gone at it a few times in the past. Gotta hand it to him, he never backs down.
 
Jaynes spoke on that saying "every draft you have a guy that you regret passing on"

He's missing the point -- Faried was as OBVIOUS as OBVIOUS gets at that spot.
 
Holy shit I just caught up on the last seven pages of this thread. Some of you guys are crazy. Stats are fun but Aldridge is arguably the best PF in the game and everyone in the league (coaches, scouts, writers, etc.) knows it. The haters on this board seem to have some kind of over-critical anti-homerism; bizarre. There are no "perfect" players other than LeBron and Durant. Aldridge doesn't even make "max" money! Dude is underpaid.

THIS IS A HICKSON THREAD.
 
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Here is a great tweet from John Hollinger on HIckson right after we acquired him last season off waivers

Good news: Can play 5 and score. Bad news: There's a better chance of water flowing uphill than of him curing Portland's defensive problems
Click to expand...
 
TowelBoy said:
Holy shit I just caught up on the last seven pages of this thread. Some of you guys are crazy. Stats are fun but Aldridge is arguably the best PF in the game and everyone in the league (coaches, scouts, writers, etc.) knows it. The haters on this board seem to have some kind of over-critical anti-homerism; bizarre. There are no "perfect" players other than LeBron and Durant. Aldridge doesn't even make "max" money! Dude is underpaid.

THIS IS A HICKSON THREAD.
Click to expand...
Aldridge is not even close. He has the physical skills to be the best PF in the game, but he lacks the assertiveness/agression necessary to accomplish that.

I would take Duncan, Griffen, Love, David West, and Z-Bo (Memphis version) ahead of Aldridge right now. There are several guys that I think he is on "par" with too. The frustrating part for me, is Aldridge COULD be a dominant player if he had it between the ears.

Since there has been a lot of debate between Aldridge & Hickson, I am going to chart both the Memphis and San Antonio games coming up for Hickson & Aldridge for comparision sake. I am going to be looking at missed defensive rebounds, missed defensive rotations, shooting percentage allowed, and items that don't typically directly show up in the box score. I am truely currious how much better LMA is than Hickson.....
 
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I made a terrible mistake last night. The first six minutes of the game I focused on watching Hickson's "defense". Might as well call it his "unicorn". It's just as real. Just non-existent, repeadedly hanging his teammates out to get scored on because of his lack of attention or bad decision or blown coverage or blown rotation or you name it. Just pitiful. I'd rather play Meyers Leonard and have Hickson come off the bench.
 
tester551 said:
Aldridge is not even close. He has the physical skills to be the best PF in the game, but he lacks the assertiveness/agression necessary to accomplish that.

I would take Duncan, Griffen, Love, David West, and Z-Bo (Memphis version) ahead of Aldridge right now. There are several guys that I think he is on "par" with too. The frustrating part for me, is Aldridge COULD be a dominant player if he had it between the ears.
Click to expand...

You can argue the players you listed are better (argue, not that I'll accept) - but to say he's not even close is ridiculous. The fact that you would take David West over LMA says all I need to know about your judgment of Aldridge (i.e. it's totally wrong). David West?! :biglaugh:
 
TowelBoy said:
It was a comically stupid draft pick.
Click to expand...
We passed on Faried as part of the Felton trade. At the time, it looked like a good idea because Felton fit better (on paper) next to Brandon. If Brandon retires in June instead of December, that trade never happens and Andre Miller is still sporting pinwheels.
 
BBert said:
I made a terrible mistake last night. The first six minutes of the game I focused on watching Hickson's "defense". Might as well call it his "unicorn". It's just as real. Just non-existent, repeadedly hanging his teammates out to get scored on because of his lack of attention or bad decision or blown coverage or blown rotation or you name it. Just pitiful. I'd rather play Meyers Leonard and have Hickson come off the bench.
Click to expand...

That is my biggest beef with hickson and this is why I suspect the coaches before didn't give this guy burn. It seems hickson just doesn't follow the coaches orders and stat pads. He is so worried about himself, that he would rather blow help defense to grab a board. He doesn't box out. He uses his athletic ability to out jump and time his rebounds. This is why when he is up against a premier rebounder, his rebounding is below average.

There was a series of two plays where hickson completely left his man uncovered and was at the top of the key. Koufos had a wide open dunk under the basket. Then the next play, hickson received the ball at the top of the key, where he fumbled the ball out of bounds, trying to drive to the basket.

There is a reason why hickson is averaging the least amount of minutes as a starter. There was a reason why Denver came roaring back after Stotts put hickson in late in the fourth.

After watching the game in Denver, I realize that hickson should not be retained. The game hold may be the deciding factor on not being able to grab a "real" center.
 
TowelBoy said:
Fun thread to post this; me debating Canzano on twitter:

JC: Kenneth Faried ... why can't Portland get guys like that?

TB: Hickson is a lot like "that." Just sayin

TB: But, point taken re: Nolan Smith bust

TB: Check this out http://bkref.com/tiny/M1QSW

JC: Take a look at Hickson's +/- ... dismal.

TB: So they're not alike at all? DEN as a team +3.8ppg. POR -2.9. Not fair to use +/-.

JC: You take Hickson. I'll take Faried. It's not close.

JC: Faried doing this on a deep team that will be the No. 4 seed in the West. Hickson doing it on the thinnest team in the West.

TB: Not saying Hickson is better. Just rebutting that we don't have "anyone like" KF. Same MPG so I don't get your depth point

JC: It was a joke. As in, why can't Portland get guys like that... when they passed on him.

TB: Got the joke, responded in kind ("Just sayin"). Even tipped my hat to the Nolan dig.

Just some good old fashioned devil's advocate, holding our columnists accountable for their tweets. Of course Faried > Hickson is a no-brainer; I was just highlighting their "similarity." We've gone at it a few times in the past. Gotta hand it to him, he never backs down.
Click to expand...

Although the debate is a good one, the biggest come back should be defense. Faired may not be an elite defender, but the dude boxes out. He is a team player that isn't concerned about himself. I think he is coachable as well. Also faried is only a second year player and will learn the other intangibles that could make him an elite pf.
 
blue9 said:
Then what does that make LMA? Their defensive rating is essentially the same (slight edge to Hickson), and Hickson is guarding players he's physically incapable of guarding, whereas LMA is always given the easiest defensive assignment on the court.
http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=0&p1=aldrila01&y1=2013&p2=hicksjj01&y2=2013
Click to expand...

http://sportstwo.com/threads/231639-LMAO-Defensive-Rating!

You should review this next time you try and use DWS and Defensive Rating.

According to your straw man; Hickson is better than Matthews defensively. Also, Aldridge actually has a edge over all players on DWS.
 
magnifier661 said:
http://sportstwo.com/threads/231639-LMAO-Defensive-Rating!

You should review this next time you try and use DWS and Defensive Rating.

According to your straw man; Hickson is better than Matthews defensively. Also, Aldridge actually has a edge over all players on DWS.
Click to expand...
Actually, you should remember that I think advanced stats are way too "foggy", and have bias written into them, and so I don't use them to form my opinions. I only cited DRtg for all you guys who DO like to use "advanced" stats, to show you that with your preferred methods of measurement LMA is no better than Hickson, defensively. If I were to use a stat to measure defense it is OppFG% - that's the only stat that gives you any sort of clear measure, and it by no means gives you a complete picture.
Also, you sure like to throw "straw man" and "delusional" around a lot - did you just learn those terms in the last couple months?
Fuck dude, why don't you form an opinion and argue that rather than targeting people you disagree with? You clearly are more concerned with refuting anyone you disagree with through idiotic "arguments" that don't even reflect how you feel, jumping from one topic to another completely unrelated topic just to try to create the appearance that you're disproving someone's opinion. I thought this place was more about basketball and less about "post stalking" than o-live - doesn't seem that's the case...
 
blue9 said:
Actually, you should remember that I think advanced stats are way too "foggy", and have bias written into them, and so I don't use them to form my opinions. I only cited DRtg for all you guys who DO like to use "advanced" stats, to show you that with your preferred methods of measurement LMA is no better than Hickson, defensively. If I were to use a stat to measure defense it is OppFG% - that's the only stat that gives you any sort of clear measure, and it by no means gives you a complete picture.
Also, you sure like to throw "straw man" and "delusional" around a lot - did you just learn those terms in the last couple months?
Fuck dude, why don't you form an opinion and argue that rather than targeting people you disagree with? You clearly are more concerned with refuting anyone you disagree with through idiotic "arguments" that don't even reflect how you feel, jumping from one topic to another completely unrelated topic just to try to create the appearance that you're disproving someone's opinion. I thought this place was more about basketball and less about "post stalking" than o-live - doesn't seem that's the case...
Click to expand...

Yet you used to try and prove Hickson is a better defender than Aldridge. LOL

See you are backpedaling in this regard when you read all the comments you posted directly after this. Never once did you say that this statistic is irrelevant until now.

Example:

blue9 said:
Then what does that make LMA? Their defensive rating is essentially the same (slight edge to Hickson), and Hickson is guarding players he's physically incapable of guarding, whereas LMA is always given the easiest defensive assignment on the court.
http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=0&p1=aldrila01&y1=2013&p2=hicksjj01&y2=2013
Click to expand...
 
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I'm not going to delve into background issues on every single post - that's your MO, always looking for what's not there to try to make your argument. You follow my posts enough to know that I have always shunned "advanced" stats.
And no, I never tried to "prove Hickson is a better defender". I said their ratings were essentially equal (even though that measurement doesn't hold much water with me - but many of "you guys" like those sorts of stats). I said that they are BOTH bad defenders, and that until recently I thought the advantage went to LMA, but upon WATCHING RECENTLY I started to rethink my opinion - seeing that Hickson actually put forth effort when guarding his man, whereas LMA doesn't seem to put forth much effort.
But really, it's all moot - they are both terrible defenders. Not much to argue. But I'm sure you'll find a way.
 
blue9 said:
I'm not going to delve into background issues on every single post - that's your MO, always looking for what's not there to try to make your argument. You follow my posts enough to know that I have always shunned "advanced" stats.
And no, I never tried to "prove Hickson is a better defender". I said their ratings were essentially equal (even though that measurement doesn't hold much water with me - but many of "you guys" like those sorts of stats). I said that they are BOTH bad defenders, and that until recently I thought the advantage went to LMA, but upon WATCHING RECENTLY I started to rethink my opinion - seeing that Hickson actually put forth effort when guarding his man, whereas LMA doesn't seem to put forth much effort.
But really, it's all moot - they are both terrible defenders. Not much to argue. But I'm sure you'll find a way.
Click to expand...

Boom.
 
blue9 said:
I'm not going to delve into background issues on every single post - that's your MO, always looking for what's not there to try to make your argument. You follow my posts enough to know that I have always shunned "advanced" stats.
And no, I never tried to "prove Hickson is a better defender". I said their ratings were essentially equal (even though that measurement doesn't hold much water with me - but many of "you guys" like those sorts of stats). I said that they are BOTH bad defenders, and that until recently I thought the advantage went to LMA, but upon WATCHING RECENTLY I started to rethink my opinion - seeing that Hickson actually put forth effort when guarding his man, whereas LMA doesn't seem to put forth much effort.
But really, it's all moot - they are both terrible defenders. Not much to argue. But I'm sure you'll find a way.
Click to expand...

crowTrobot said:
FWIW oppenent PER while playing primary position

batum (SF) 12.8
lillard (PG) 13.6
matthews (SG) 14.5
LMA (PF) 16.4
hickson (C) 19.4

hickson (at PF) 26.5
LMA (at C) 12.5
Click to expand...

Not according to this stat.

Aldridge has a 19.8 PER and holds his PFs to a 16.4 PER (+3.4)
Hickson has a 20.1 PER and holds his centers to a 19.4 PER (+0.7)
Hickson against other PFs holds them to a 26.5 PER (-6.4)
Aldridge playing center holds other centers to a 12.5 PER (+7.3)

Your idea is skewed.

And all teams put their center (or best defensive player) on Aldridge; so his PER is much better earned than Hickson
 
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I don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore, mags. Just "talking" to hear the sounds of your own "voice"?
My day is just about done and I'm outta here.
 
blue9 said:
I don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore, mags. Just "talking" to hear the sounds of your own "voice"?
My day is just about done and I'm outta here.
Click to expand...

ignoring the truth is what you do blue.... You said that both Hickson and Aldridge are terrible defenders. I said no because Aldridge is holding PFs way lower than the average PER for the position, and really lower at the center.

Hickson actually is worse defending PFs than he is against centers this year.
 
Mags owns it and thats all he gets in a response? Id probay give up too from that ownage
 
Sorry, but PER is just a made up number with bias written into it - it's not telling you anything about either of their defensive abilities.
And how do you account for the difference in the quality of their opponents? Hickson is always given the more difficult defensive assignment while LMA is always given the easiest. Your comps don't have merit.
 
magnifier661 said:
ignoring the truth is what you do blue.... You said that both Hickson and Aldridge are terrible defenders. I said no because Aldridge is holding PFs way lower than the average PER for the position, and really lower at the center.

Hickson actually is worse defending PFs than he is against centers this year.
Click to expand...
J***IOW
 
magnifier661 said:
ignoring the truth is what you do blue.... You said that both Hickson and Aldridge are terrible defenders. I said no because Aldridge is holding PFs way lower than the average PER for the position, and really lower at the center.

Hickson actually is worse defending PFs than he is against centers this year.
Click to expand...

16.4 is way lower than the average PER for the power forward position? Source?

PER isn't a great stat to begin with and this +/- PER at different positions trend is even worse.
 
Blue9, you have convinced me. Thank you for that. Lma is a terribly inefficient, choke artist, defensive liability piece of crap. We would be a better team without him. Think of it like addition by subtraction right?

Thanks man.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
16.4 is way lower than the average PER for the power forward position? Source?

PER isn't a great stat to begin with and this +/- PER at different positions trend is even worse.
Click to expand...

Tried getting the ESPN list when I looked at it last time. It was the top PFs based on PER. The middle of the pack of starters was 17

For some reason it's at 0.00 right now
 
magnifier661 said:
Tried getting the ESPN list when I looked at it last time. It was the top PFs based on PER. The middle of the pack of starters was 17

For some reason it's at 0.00 right now
Click to expand...

Oh if it's starters I could see it being 17. So basically, LA doesn't have an overly positive or overly negative effect on the PER of his opponent. I see how that can be a part of measuring defense, but I think it should just be treated as any other stat. It's a piece of the puzzle.
 
VanillaGorilla said:
Oh if it's starters I could see it being 17. So basically, LA doesn't have an overly positive or overly negative effect on the PER of his opponent. I see how that can be a part of measuring defense, but I think it should just be treated as any other stat. It's a piece of the puzzle.
Click to expand...

Oh absolutely!

I'm going to be honest here. Me being defensive is being sick and fucking tired of all this anti-LMA banter. Then saying Hickson is just as good of a PF as Aldridge. It's boring... These delusional haters are losing their mind.

I understand trading Aldridge for pieces. That's fine, but stay with that argument. Stop trying to bash Aldridge like he's some whack defensiveness PF wannabe. It's reaching!
 
Realizing that Hickson has the highest PER on our team made my confidence in the stat waver. Or at least how it's applied, cause it's used soooooo much.
 
The point is that we have 2 adequate starting PFs. Instead of losing or benching one next year, we should trade one this summer to improve at other positions. Because Hickson's a FA, Aldridge is the only one of the two we could trade, not to mention the one we could get a top star for.
 
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