Batum trade revisited

[blue9]

Regardless of who was traded for who, Aminu is the person who has filled Nic's position form last year and has done so in similiar fashion to what Nic's prodcution was last year, but we got Aminu for much less. Does that not make Hendo and Vonleh basically freebies?

You're trying to spin the trade into something it's not. Aminu wasn't part of the trade. The trade was Nic for Vonleh/Henderson. Period. Doesn't matter if we signed Lebron Freaking James - the Nic trade blows. Hopefully we win it in the long-term, but Vonleh has to become a very good player for it to be a win.
We could have had Aminu backing up Nic, which would have made us an immensely better team. Trying to play off the trade as if Aminu makes it good just doesn't fly.

 

[Strenuus]

You're trying to spin the trade into something it's not. Aminu wasn't part of the trade. The trade was Nic for Vonleh/Henderson. Period. Doesn't matter if we signed Lebron Freaking James - the Nic trade blows. Hopefully we win it in the long-term, but Vonleh has to become a very good player for it to be a win.
We could have had Aminu backing up Nic, which would have made us an immensely better team. Trying to play off the trade as if Aminu makes it good just doesn't fly.

I'd argue that without Henderson during the key stretch last month, we have a harder time being where we are at. He had a 2-3 week stretch where he carried our bench.

That makes the trade -this year- worth it.

 

[blue9]

I'd argue that without Henderson during the key stretch last month, we have a harder time being where we are at. He had a 2-3 week stretch where he carried our bench.

That makes the trade -this year- worth it.

But Nic has lead a team for an entire season. So, I'm not sure a few weeks of Henderson (though I really like him!) really compares to what Nic has done.

 

[Natebishop3]

Understand your notion, I simply don't agree with it. And I think that this team would be better with Nic Batum at SF instead of Aminu.

But it's not just Nic at SF. Hendo has been a huge contributor for our bench. I'm not sure we're this good without him. It's Aminu as the starting SF, Hendo and Vonleh contributing to our bench. He's including Aminu because Aminu was his replacement, we didn't trade for a small forward. Maybe we don't sign Aminu if we don't trade Nic. Overall, I think we need to look at the stats for the whole group to see if the trade paid off this season.

Nic is currently averaging 15 ppg, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal. He's attempting 12.5 FG per game and making 5, while shooting 42.6% from the field and 34.8% from three. His totals are 373 total fg's made, 139 three pointers, he has 428 rebounds, 403 assists, 65 steals and 42 blocks. He has scored 1046 total points.

Comparatively:

Aminu - 10.2 ppg, 5 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1 steal, 296 field goals, 124 three pointers, 496 total rebounds, 138 assists, 71 steals, 53 blocks, and 829 points.
Hendo - 8.7 ppg, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, .5 steals, .3 blocks, 232 field goals, 48 three pointers, 211 rebounds, 75 assists, 39 steals, 19 blocks, 624 points
Vonleh - 3.6 ppg, 4 rebounds, .4 assists, .3 steals, .3 blocks, 115 field goals, 11 three pointers, 300 rebounds, 29 assists, 26 steals, 23 blocks, 277 points

So here are the averages to compare

Nic - 15 ppg, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, .6 blocks
Group - 22.5 ppg, 12.9 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.3 blocks

Here are the totals to compare

Nic - 372 field goals, 139 three pointers, 428 rebounds, 403 assists, 65 steals, 43 blocks, 1046 points
Group - 643 field goals, 183 three pointers, 1007 rebounds, 242 assists, 136 steals, 95 blocks, 1730 points

So the overall production vastly outweighs Batum. Two of the guys that are here right now because Batum is not have been very valuable contributors to our rotation. Just for shits and giggles, I decided to go back and look at who would be in the same roles with Batum last year.

So we're looking at

Starting small forward
Backup shooting guard
Backup power forward

In terms of minutes played, CJ and Meyers would be the backups, to go with Batum. Here are the averages to compare - Group A (last year) and Group B (this year.)

Group A - 22.1 ppg, 11.9 rebounds, 6.4 assists, 2 steals, 1 block
Group B - 22.5 ppg, 12.9 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.3 blocks

So the numbers slightly favor the new group. Let's take a look at the totals.

Group A - 524 field goals, 202 three pointers, 757 rebounds, 437 assists, 131 steals, 62 blocks, and 1415 points.
Group B - 643 field goals, 183 three pointers, 1007 rebounds, 242 assists, 136 steals, 95 blocks, and 1730 points

Also, just for comparison, here are the total minutes played

Group A - 4200 minutes
Group B - 4901 minutes

This is important because the ability to play our bench guys has been extremely valuable. CJ and Meyers had the 8th and 9th most minutes played last season. Kaman and Blake were 6th and 7th.

 

[Natebishop3]

You're trying to spin the trade into something it's not. Aminu wasn't part of the trade. The trade was Nic for Vonleh/Henderson. Period. Doesn't matter if we signed Lebron Freaking James - the Nic trade blows. Hopefully we win it in the long-term, but Vonleh has to become a very good player for it to be a win.
We could have had Aminu backing up Nic, which would have made us an immensely better team. Trying to play off the trade as if Aminu makes it good just doesn't fly.

That's not true. We traded him before we signed Aminu. We signed Aminu to be his replacement. We didn't trade for a starting small forward, so you have to factor in whoever we replaced him with.

 

[Strenuus]

But Nic has lead a team for an entire season. So, I'm not sure a few weeks of Henderson (though I really like him!) really compares to what Nic has done.

We don't know if Nic does that production HERE.

We can only go with what we see on OUR team HERE. Different options over in Charlotte.

In that area, you can't compare. But Henderson helped us at times THIS year, and that makes the Batum trade in the short term a success, however slight.

 

[Natebishop3]

We don't know if Nic does that production HERE.

We can only go with what we see on OUR team HERE. Different options over in Charlotte.

In that area, you can't compare. But Henderson helped us at times THIS year, and that makes the Batum trade in the short term a success, however slight.

I just find it funny that the Batum lovers want to leave Aminu out of the equation. I don't think we sign Aminu if Nic is still here. We definitely don't play Harkless if Batum is here. There simply wouldn't be enough minutes to go around.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You're trying to spin the trade into something it's not. Aminu wasn't part of the trade. The trade was Nic for Vonleh/Henderson. Period. Doesn't matter if we signed Lebron Freaking James - the Nic trade blows. Hopefully we win it in the long-term, but Vonleh has to become a very good player for it to be a win.
We could have had Aminu backing up Nic, which would have made us an immensely better team. Trying to play off the trade as if Aminu makes it good just doesn't fly.

We will have to agree to disagree. I'm trying to look at the big picture here, not just one trade. Big picture is make the team better. We got three for one and those three equal better than the one in my opinion

I'm thinking of it in my line of profession:

I schedule trucks all the time. I take a loss on one abut make a profit on the other and it all washes out and the boss is happy. I'm thinking NO has this same type of broad stroke thinking. I think HE thinks all said and done the moves improved the team and he is happy.

Take Aminu out of the mix and how Nic performed last year, and im STILL fine with the trade. Once Hendo got healthy he has been a good contributer off the bench and we have a young potential star( lots of work still) that may or may not work out. Combine that with Nic being a free agent this year, We did just fine.

Not concerned...

 

[Orion Bailey]

I just find it funny that the Batum lovers want to leave Aminu out of the equation. I don't think we sign Aminu if Nic is still here. We definitely don't play Harkless if Batum is here. There simply wouldn't be enough minutes to go around.

Right? The moves were all made in one summer with the point of trying to improve the team. I think we did that. NO played a good round.

Maybe he bogeyed a hole, but he came out under par in the end. He CERTAINLY didnt pull a Justin SPeifs....

 

[dviss1]

We don't know if Nic does that production HERE.

We can only go with what we see on OUR team HERE. Different options over in Charlotte.

In that area, you can't compare. But Henderson helped us at times THIS year, and that makes the Batum trade in the short term a success, however slight.

I don't buy this at all. Nic isn't putting up huge numbers that he couldn't get in Stotts system.

He's at 14/6/6

 

[dviss1]

I just find it funny that the Batum lovers want to leave Aminu out of the equation. I don't think we sign Aminu if Nic is still here. We definitely don't play Harkless if Batum is here. There simply wouldn't be enough minutes to go around.

And as I said before I think this notion is silly. Nic could have started at the two-guard position and we still could have brought in an Aminu.

Adding Aminu's production in the equation is wrong in my opinion.

 

[Pinwheel1]

You're trying to spin the trade into something it's not. Aminu wasn't part of the trade. The trade was Nic for Vonleh/Henderson. Period. Doesn't matter if we signed Lebron Freaking James - the Nic trade blows. Hopefully we win it in the long-term, but Vonleh has to become a very good player for it to be a win.
We could have had Aminu backing up Nic, which would have made us an immensely better team. Trying to play off the trade as if Aminu makes it good just doesn't fly.

Other players besides the 3 players mentioned do matter IMO. For instance Crabbe who has a higher 3 pt average than Nic this year, might not get the minutes or experience if Nic is still here. Harkless is not even on the team IMO.

But if we just isolate the trade to Hendo and Vonleh, I still like it. Like CJ last year, some of you are under estimating Vonleh.
Sure only time will tell, but do you really not see his potential? Next year he will be much improved.

Henderson gives us a physical wing who attacks the paint. We needed that. Nic's biggest asset is giving us a 3rd ball handler and I admit that is a big loss, but that is about it. Either way we were going to have holes to fill. Sign him this summer if you want. But I think he needed a change of scenery. Fans were down on him last year and he was feeling the pressure.

 

[blue9]

That's not true. We traded him before we signed Aminu. We signed Aminu to be his replacement. We didn't trade for a starting small forward, so you have to factor in whoever we replaced him with.

I don't agree - a trade stands on its own merits. We could have signed Aminu regardless of the Nic trade - we BADLY needed a back-up SF.

 

[Natebishop3]

And as I said before I think this notion is silly. Nic could have started at the two-guard position and we still could have brought in an Aminu.

Adding Aminu's production in the equation is wrong in my opinion.

Do you REALLY want to go down that road? At that point you're bringing CJ into the equation because CJ is the starting two guard. So now you're including CJ's stats in the comparison.

 

[Strenuus]

Right? The moves were all made in one summer with the point of trying to improve the team. I think we did that. NO played a good round.

Maybe he bogeyed a hole, but he came out under par in the end. He CERTAINLY didnt pull a Justin SPeifs....

Jordan Speith, however, actually won a jacket though....

Is his brother named Justin?

 

[dviss1]

But it's not just Nic at SF. Hendo has been a huge contributor for our bench. I'm not sure we're this good without him. It's Aminu as the starting SF, Hendo and Vonleh contributing to our bench. He's including Aminu because Aminu was his replacement, we didn't trade for a small forward. Maybe we don't sign Aminu if we don't trade Nic. Overall, I think we need to look at the stats for the whole group to see if the trade paid off this season.

Nic is currently averaging 15 ppg, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal. He's attempting 12.5 FG per game and making 5, while shooting 42.6% from the field and 34.8% from three. His totals are 373 total fg's made, 139 three pointers, he has 428 rebounds, 403 assists, 65 steals and 42 blocks. He has scored 1046 total points.

Comparatively:

Aminu - 10.2 ppg, 5 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1 steal, 296 field goals, 124 three pointers, 496 total rebounds, 138 assists, 71 steals, 53 blocks, and 829 points.
Hendo - 8.7 ppg, 3 rebounds, 1 assist, .5 steals, .3 blocks, 232 field goals, 48 three pointers, 211 rebounds, 75 assists, 39 steals, 19 blocks, 624 points
Vonleh - 3.6 ppg, 4 rebounds, .4 assists, .3 steals, .3 blocks, 115 field goals, 11 three pointers, 300 rebounds, 29 assists, 26 steals, 23 blocks, 277 points

So here are the averages to compare

Nic - 15 ppg, 6 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, .6 blocks
Group - 22.5 ppg, 12.9 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.3 blocks

Here are the totals to compare

Nic - 372 field goals, 139 three pointers, 428 rebounds, 403 assists, 65 steals, 43 blocks, 1046 points
Group - 643 field goals, 183 three pointers, 1007 rebounds, 242 assists, 136 steals, 95 blocks, 1730 points

So the overall production vastly outweighs Batum. Two of the guys that are here right now because Batum is not have been very valuable contributors to our rotation. Just for shits and giggles, I decided to go back and look at who would be in the same roles with Batum last year.

So we're looking at

Starting small forward
Backup shooting guard
Backup power forward

In terms of minutes played, CJ and Meyers would be the backups, to go with Batum. Here are the averages to compare - Group A (last year) and Group B (this year.)

Group A - 22.1 ppg, 11.9 rebounds, 6.4 assists, 2 steals, 1 block
Group B - 22.5 ppg, 12.9 rebounds, 3.1 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.3 blocks

So the numbers slightly favor the new group. Let's take a look at the totals.

Group A - 524 field goals, 202 three pointers, 757 rebounds, 437 assists, 131 steals, 62 blocks, and 1415 points.
Group B - 643 field goals, 183 three pointers, 1007 rebounds, 242 assists, 136 steals, 95 blocks, and 1730 points

Also, just for comparison, here are the total minutes played

Group A - 4200 minutes
Group B - 4901 minutes

This is important because the ability to play our bench guys has been extremely valuable. CJ and Meyers had the 8th and 9th most minutes played last season. Kaman and Blake were 6th and 7th.

You could've saved this long drawn out post. tl/dr. Those of us are in the "don't include Aminu's stats camp" don't care much about them.

 

[Natebishop3]

You could've saved this long drawn out post. tl/dr. Those of us are in the "don't include Aminu's stats camp" don't care much about them.

And if you don't include Aminu's stats, you're not living in reality.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Jordan Speith, however, actually won a jacket though....

Is his brother named Justin?

Yeah. HAHA, I know very little about golf. Just heard it on the radio that he crumbled.

Wait. Jordan won last year, but just choked this year going into the lead on Sunday. Thatswhat I heard anyhow.

 

[dviss1]

Do you REALLY want to go down that road? At that point you're bringing CJ into the equation because CJ is the starting two guard. So now you're including CJ's stats in the comparison.

Yes. I think we'd be a much better team with Batum. Than with Vonleh/Henderson.

 

[dviss1]

Yeah. HAHA, I know very little about golf. Just heard it on the radio that he crumbled

He won before. He was defending his Master's title.

 

[Orion Bailey]

He won before. He was defending his Master's title.

See I don't think Nic would have ever been any better here than what we saw. I think the trade was good and a great long term improvement.

 

[blue9]

And if you don't include Aminu's stats, you're not living in reality.

This thread is about a TRADE not the TEAM. The REALITY is that Aminu wasn't a part of the trade.
Nobody is arguing that the TEAM is worse off (though it could be made, but that's not the discussion). Aminu only factors in at the team level, not the trade level.

 

[jlprk]

They speak Spanish.

Zut. Tu as raison.

 

[Strenuus]

Yeah. HAHA, I know very little about golf. Just heard it on the radio that he crumbled.

Wait. Jordan won last year, but just choked this year going into the lead on Sunday. Thatswhat I heard anyhow.

Yeah... he won the jacket last year... he was the defending champion.

 

[dviss1]

Other players besides the 3 players mentioned do matter IMO. For instance Crabbe who has a higher 3 pt average than Nic this year, might not get the minutes or experience if Nic is still here. Harkless is not even on the team IMO.
.

I don't care about 1 dimensional Crabbe. And you're wrong about not having Harkless.

 

[Orion Bailey]

This thread is about a TRADE not the TEAM. The REALITY is that Aminu wasn't a part of the trade.
Nobody is arguing that the TEAM is worse off (though it could be made, but that's not the discussion). Aminu only factors in at the team level, not the trade level.

Okay, but based on the responses... regardless of who made the thread or who they want to include in thew discussion. Its pretty clear many here feel the trade cant be isolated like that, because there's too many x factors.

Gonna have to agree to disagree.

 

[Natebishop3]

This thread is about a TRADE not the TEAM. The REALITY is that Aminu wasn't a part of the trade.
Nobody is arguing that the TEAM is worse off (though it could be made, but that's not the discussion). Aminu only factors in at the team level, not the trade level.

Yes, we made the trade for a shooting guard and power forward and then WENT OUT AND SIGNED A REPLACEMENT SMALL FORWARD.

 

[dviss1]

And if you don't include Aminu's stats, you're not living in reality.

Read @blue9's post above.

 

[Schilly]

Trade Straight up...

For the Season
Henderson
1431min 624pts 211reb 75ast 39stl
Vonleh
1148min 277pts 300reb 29ast 26stl
Total
2579min 901pts 511reb 104ast 65stl

Batum
2448min 1046pts 428reb 403ast 65stl

discuss

 

[Natebishop3]

We had not signed Aminu yet, so how you could not include him is ridiculous. How do you know he would have signed here if we didn't have a vacancy at the starting small forward spot?