Trade Ben Simmons poll

[wizenheimer]

It always fascinates me when a player demands a trade, then does nothing to actually facilitate a deal happening. Working together to get a deal done seems like simple common sense.

that assumes that Morey would have had reasonable trade demands if Simmons was more "cooperative". Do you really believe Morey would have reacted in Simmons favor if it wasn't so rancorous?

maybe Morey should have told Doc Rivers and Embiid to shut the fuck up. They are the ones that burned the bridges, followed by the insane Philly fans

 

[illmatic99]

that assumes that Morey would have had reasonable trade demands if Simmons was more "cooperative".

Just a few examples of deals Morey proposed this summer:
- Tatum (repeatedly mentioned by Bill Simmons) from Boston.
- Wiggins, Wiseman, 7th pick, 14th pick, and 2 future firsts from GS.
- Lowry, Van Vleet, Anunoby AND the 4th pick from Toronto.
- DeJounte Murray, 4 future firsts, and 3 pick swaps from SA
- "A top 5-10 player"
- Seeking a "James Harden-esque" return.
- "the best player" on each team.

- Dame (presumably)

And here's the other thing. He very obviously leaks these offers and negotiates through the media. I can see the rest of the league shunning him, tbh.

 

[Minstrel]

Just curious: what team whose star demanded a trade actually got a star in return?
Did the Rockets get a star for Harden?
Did the Pelicans get a star for KD?
Maybe you can claim that OKC got a star for Paul George, but that's stretching it - SGA was just promising.
Am I missing an example?

As others have noted, teams trading a star generally only do it because that star can force the issue through free agency so the team is left with little choice. At that point, they're heading into a rebuild.

I never said that Morey will get an actual star for Simmons, but he has to maximize his return. Pulling the trigger early just to net CJ McCollum hardly seems like a move that he's crazy not to make. Having four years left on Simmons' deal absolutely gives him time to wait on making a deal, because Simmons can't just leave on his own.

Simmons not playing doesn't really hurt his trade value--everyone knows his game, and it's less chance of him getting injured in the meantime so unless the 76ers are desperate for early season wins, I don't think his hold-out is actually that big a deal for them. The idea that it harms their leverage is silly--he was already obviously being traded and Morey, by not quickly trading him, is proving he's willing to deal with the "discomfort" of a player holding out. Their leverage comes from trying to prove that they won't be held up by low-bid offers designed to take advantage of a desperate team. They can only do that by hanging onto Simmons while they continue waiting and negotiating.

 

[illmatic99]

Simmons not playing doesn't really hurt his trade value--everyone knows his game, and it's less chance of him getting injured in the meantime so unless the 76ers are desperate for early season wins, I don't think his hold-out is actually that big a deal for them. The idea that it harms their leverage is silly--he was already obviously being traded and Morey, by not quickly trading him, is proving he's willing to deal with the "discomfort" of a player holding out. Their leverage comes from trying to prove that they won't be held up by low-bid offers designed to take advantage of a desperate team. They can only do that by hanging onto Simmons while they continue waiting and negotiating.

Four ways that I think this hold-out can reduce his value if extended:

1. I think you underestimate how ugly Rich Paul can make this situation both with regards to future clients and leaks to the media about internal troubles in Philly.
2. Players getting constantly pestered into answering questions about Simmons.
3. Losing more in a tightly contested EC playoff race this year where they have a shot at dropping from #1 to a play-in team.
4. Their fans ruining public perception even further.

 

[illmatic99]

Just some examples recently:

 

[Minstrel]

Four ways that I think this hold-out can reduce his value if extended:

1. I think you underestimate how ugly Rich Paul can make this situation both with regards to future clients and leaks to the media about internal troubles in Philly.
2. Players getting constantly pestered into answering questions about Simmons.
3. Losing more in a tightly contested EC playoff race this year where they have a shot at dropping from #1 to a play-in team.
4. Their fans ruining public perception even further.

I think (1) is a really good point I hadn't fully considered. I don't think (4) matters even a tiny bit. NBA front offices aren't going to make player evaluations based on what angry Philadelphia fans are chanting or tweeting. (2) could be an issue, I'm undecided. (3) will definitely matter if this goes on all season--I think that's probably unsustainable. But I think Morey can at least extend this through December.

 

[illmatic99]

I think (1) is a really good point I hadn't fully considered. I don't think (4) matters even a tiny bit. NBA front offices aren't going to make player evaluations based on what angry Philadelphia fans are chanting or tweeting. (2) could be an issue, I'm undecided. (3) will definitely matter if this goes on all season--I think that's probably unsustainable. But I think Morey can at least extend this through December.

My read on this is that extending through at least December is an inevitability. There has hardly been any traction from legitimate rumors, and this is from a front office that does almost all their business publicly. I posted earlier that dragging this further will do nothing to INCREASE his value-- and I'll stick by that.

I'll also stick by my prediction of Portland having a better record than Philly (minus Ben) by Christmas, so hopes of a miracle Dame trade to Philly are far-fetched.

 

[Minstrel]

I posted earlier that dragging this further will do nothing to INCREASE his value-- and I'll stick by that.

I agree with that. I don't think Morey hopes that Simmons' value, in an absolute sense, increases. I think he's hoping some teams (doesn't necessarily have to be Portland, even if that's his dream) get desperate to shake things up or decide that they're one player away and see Simmons as "their Draymond Green" (to be clear: I actually think Simmons and Green are very different players, but I think you can talk yourself into seeing them as doing similar things for a team) and are willing to give up a really good young player and some picks.

Personally, I kind of think Morey is screwed, but he probably doesn't have any great options so he might as well play it out as far as he can.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I agree with that. I don't think Morey hopes that Simmons' value, in an absolute sense, increases. I think he's hoping some teams (doesn't necessarily have to be Portland, even if that's his dream) get desperate to shake things up or decide that they're one player away and see Simmons as "their Draymond Green" (to be clear: I actually think Simmons and Green are very different players, but I think you can talk yourself into seeing them as doing similar things for a team) and are willing to give up a really good young player and some picks.

Personally, I kind of think Morey is screwed, but he probably doesn't have any great options so he might as well play it out as far as he can.

It is also possible that since Simmons is hated so much in Philly at the moment, Morey might think it is a good time to lower his demands and not lose face.
I am sure he can spin it in his favor.

 

[Cugel]

Plus 1 on the rich paul thing. Nobody in the media that i know of is talking about this. Klutch has clout and players like klutch

 

[Buffalo Custard]

that assumes that Morey would have had reasonable trade demands if Simmons was more "cooperative". Do you really believe Morey would have reacted in Simmons favor if it wasn't so rancorous?

maybe Morey should have told Doc Rivers and Embiid to shut the fuck up. They are the ones that burned the bridges, followed by the insane Philly fans

What I believe, is that when it comes to being a jackass Morey and Paul are playing "hold my beer and watch this!" I don't trust either one and I find it hard to believe either of them created this situation all by themselves. YMMV

 

[Minstrel]

It is also possible that since Simmons is hated so much in Philly at the moment, Morey might think it is a good time to lower his demands and not lose face.
I am sure he can spin it in his favor.

From what I can tell, Morey doesn't care about things like "saving face," he just wants to do whatever he perceives as leading to the best deal.

I think he'll be forced at some point to lower his demands because his demands at the moment are silly, but I don't think Philadelphia fan sentiment will have anything to do with it.

 

[Idog1976]

From what I can tell, Morey doesn't care about things like "saving face," he just wants to do whatever he perceives as leading to the best deal.

I think he'll be forced at some point to lower his demands because his demands at the moment are silly, but I don't think Philadelphia fan sentiment will have anything to do with it.

Unless fan sentiment reaches a fever pitch and they *gasp* turn on Morey for not making a deal. Ownership might take note of that and apply pressure. A part of me wants to see Morey get fired and a new GM make the Simmons trade on day One. Thats not outside the realm of possibility here. Media and fans can create sentiment that Owners might take note of. The buck doesn’t stop at Morey.

 

[illmatic99]

I dunno if it's the author's opinion or this is the way the team feels:
The Portland Trail Blazers’ C.J. McCollum is a better player than Brogdon and LeVert. He just doesn’t fill the bill at the point guard spot like Brogdon.

 

[wizenheimer]

I dunno if it's the author's opinion or this is the way the team feels:
The Portland Trail Blazers’ C.J. McCollum is a better player than Brogdon and LeVert. He just doesn’t fill the bill at the point guard spot like Brogdon.

I think that's pretty accurate. The gap between CJ is small, if it's there, but Brogdon has good PG skills and has been running offenses as the primary facilitator. CJ hasn't done that. I'd imagine Philly has noticed that and has a lot of concerns about who would run the offense if Simmons wasn't there

 

[illmatic99]

I think that's pretty accurate. The gap between CJ is small, if it's there, but Brogdon has good PG skills and has been running offenses as the primary facilitator. CJ hasn't done that. I'd imagine Philly has noticed that and has a lot of concerns about who would run the offense if Simmons wasn't there

If we're just going by AST% last year:

Brodgan: 25.7% AST, 9.8% TOV, 25.9% USG
CJ: 23.0% AST, 6.5% TOV, 27.1% USG
Ben: 31.0% AST, 19.5^ TOV, 20.2% USG

Recall CJ is the only one producing these stats in a different role, whereas Brogdan and Ben are both the playmakers. I think Philly is really going to miss Ben, tbh. He moves the ball a ton and gets everyone involved while not holding onto it much. I did that breakdown earlier of guys who assist that well with such low usage, and Ben is only among like 6 or 7 players who fit the bill (along with guys like CP/Lowry/etc). It's a rare breed that someone like Embiid is really going to hate playing without.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I dunno if it's the author's opinion or this is the way the team feels:
The Portland Trail Blazers’ C.J. McCollum is a better player than Brogdon and LeVert. He just doesn’t fill the bill at the point guard spot like Brogdon.

see, i could never put you on ignore. I get too much juice from you.
Im sorry. Ill try to back off man.
Its just i wish we could all be kinder to each other is all.
Ill let it go.

 

[Buffalo Custard]

OK, this question is probably too speculative to really answer, but.....if you replace Simmons with CJ's inferior passing/superior ability to spread the court, which other 6ers benefit? Which will suffer? Any thoughts?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I think that's pretty accurate. The gap between CJ is small, if it's there, but Brogdon has good PG skills and has been running offenses as the primary facilitator. CJ hasn't done that. I'd imagine Philly has noticed that and has a lot of concerns about who would run the offense if Simmons wasn't there

Brogdon is a very nice player and certainly a better PG and a better defender than CJ.
HOWEVER, I don't see that being the deciding factor. Who was the point guard the last year Doc coached the Clippers? I think, especially when your primary offense is a big man down low, that having a gifted floor general is overrated. They care much more about having shooting around Embiid, I bet.
THAT SAID: you can probably comfortably play Seth Curry next to Brogdon, but it would get ugly fast if you did that with CJ.
BUT THEN AGAIN: when Curry was with the Blazers, wasn't one of our top three-men groups CJ, Curry and Dame?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I'd love to have Brogdon on the team.

Instead of Dame?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I think Philly is really going to miss Ben, tbh. He moves the ball a ton and gets everyone involved while not holding onto it much. I did that breakdown earlier of guys who assist that well with such low usage, and Ben is only among like 6 or 7 players who fit the bill (along with guys like CP/Lowry/etc). It's a rare breed that someone like Embiid is really going to hate playing without.

I think Philly will trade for Facu Campazzo at some point (perhaps after Jamal Murray is healthy - although they'd like to do it while Ben Simmons is still holding out). He's (rightfully) behind Monte' Morris in the Nuggets' depth chart, and they're very excited about Bones Hyland. Meanwhile, he's an ideal Philly player (i.e., chippy).

 

[Rastapopoulos]

From what I can tell, Morey doesn't care about things like "saving face," he just wants to do whatever he perceives as leading to the best deal.

I think he'll be forced at some point to lower his demands because his demands at the moment are silly, but I don't think Philadelphia fan sentiment will have anything to do with it.

I wonder if Embiid sentiment will have something to do with it.

 

[Minstrel]

I wonder if Embiid sentiment will have something to do with it.

Possibly, though while the relationship between Simmons and Embiid worsens by the minute, that relationship is kind of irrelevant with Simmons not around the team. Maybe Embiid will be angry not to have CJ McCollum or some other sub-star player that Morey could get now, but unless Embiid has a bad relationship with Morey I don't see him making waves any time soon. Maybe if he were forced to play with Simmons again.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Possibly, though while the relationship between Simmons and Embiid worsens by the minute, that relationship is kind of irrelevant with Simmons not around the team. Maybe Embiid will be angry not to have CJ McCollum or some other sub-star player that Morey could get now, but unless Embiid has a bad relationship with Morey I don't see him making waves any time soon. Maybe if he were forced to play with Simmons again.

That's what I had in mind.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Unless fan sentiment reaches a fever pitch and they *gasp* turn on Morey for not making a deal. Ownership might take note of that and apply pressure. A part of me wants to see Morey get fired and a new GM make the Simmons trade on day One. Thats not outside the realm of possibility here. Media and fans can create sentiment that Owners might take note of. The buck doesn’t stop at Morey.

I suspect Morey would much rather get fired than take what he sees as a bad return in a Simmons deal.

If he gets fired he gets to keep his $50 million contract and go get a new job; so the joke is on the 6ers owners.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

This is what Sixers look like without Simmons. 2020 Playoffs:

 

[SharpesTriumph]

This is what Sixers look like without Simmons. 2020 Playoffs:View attachment 40990

So is your point he's a superstar as good or better than many other Allstars? Thus the 6ers will never trade Simmons for a"lesser" player such as CJ? Or even call his bluff to hold out the the entire year?

 

[GDiama]

76ers asked 3 1sts and three pick swaps for the CJ-Simmons trade. Blazers rejected it.

 

[Pinwheel1]

76ers asked 3 1sts and three pick swaps for the CJ-Simmons trade. Blazers rejected it.

Yeah, you can't do that....for so many reasons. If things go bad for a team (i.e injuries) and your season hits rock bottom, you need those
draft picks. The fans need them too so there is something to look forward to.

 

[brooklynballer]

76ers asked 3 1sts and three pick swaps for the CJ-Simmons trade. Blazers rejected it.

The bad news is that the Morey’s demanded return for Simmons seems to be getting more ludicrous by the day. The good news is that he would accept a trade package centered around CJ, although this particular one is not realistic. Perhaps when their backs are further against the wall and the 6ers get off to a slow start they’ll revisit this trade with a more reasonable mind frame.