Best Starting 5 in the league

[magnifier661]

LMA - 20.5 points, 8.8 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 0.93 steals, 1.24 blocks, PER (19.6)
Hickson - 12.6 points, 10.8 rebounds, 1.1 assists, 0.51 steals, 0.77 blocks, PER (20.0)
Lillard - 18.3 points, 3.4 rebounds, 6.5 assists, 1.05 steals, 0.27 blocks, PER (16.5)
Batum - 16.4 points, 6.1 rebounds, 4.9 assists, 1.44 steals, 1.05 blocks, PER (17.7)
Matthews - 15.1 points, 2.8 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 1.45 steals, 0.32 blocks, PER (14.3)

Our starting 5 totals:

82.9 points, 31.9 rebounds, 17.7 assists, 5.38 steals, 3.65 blocks, 88.1 PER per game.

Is there another starting 5 in the NBA better than ours? I would say Miami would be, so I checked the numbers.

LJ - 26.6 points, 8.3 rebounds, 7.1 assists, 1.66 steals, 0.88 blocks, PER (30.4)
Wade - 20.7 points, 4.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 1.41 steals, 0.73 blocks, PER (23.2)
Bosh - 17.2 points, 7.5 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 0.80 steals, 1.35 blocks, PER (20.8)
Chalmers - 7.7 points, 2.2 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.59 steals, 0.15 blocks, PER (11.8)
Haslem - 3.6 points, 5.5 rebounds, 0.5 assists, 0.59 steals, 0.18 blocks, PER (9.0 PER)

Their total:
75.8 points (-7.1), 28.1 rebounds (-3.8), 17.3 assists (-0.4), 6.05 steals (+0.67), 3.29 blocks (-0.36), PER 95.2 (+7.1)

So statistically, our starting 5 out performs theirs.

SO now I decided to take a look at OKC, since they are the best in the West and considered the most talented starting 5.

Durant: 29.6 points, 7.4 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 1.58 steals, 1.22 blocks, PER (29.2)
Westbrook: 22.5 points, 5.4 rebounds, 8.4 assists, 1.89 steals, 0.24 blocks, PER (22.7)
Ibaka: 13.9 points, 8.3 rebounds, 0.5 assists, 0.33 steals, 2.79 blocks, PER (18.6 PER)
Sefolosha: 7.3 points, 4.0 rebounds, 1.7 assists, 1.25 steals, 0.50 blocks, PER (12.2)
Perkins: 4.2 points, 5.9 rebounds, 1.4 assists, 0.56 steals, 0.98 blocks, PER (8.4)

Their total:
77.5 points (-5.19), 31 rebounds (-0.9), 16.4 assists (-1.3), 5.61 steals (+0.23), blocks 5.514 (+1.864), PER 91.1 (+3)

I just don't understand why people think we would be in mediocracy when our starting 5 is mostly outperforming the two best team's starting 5s? This proves that all we really need is a deeper bench and better role players. We need 1 scorer, a center and a defensive bench wing and we could be in really good shape. Possibly even contention.

 

[Eastoff]

That is per game, not per 48.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

need a bench BAD, the cupboards are bare my man!

 

[magnifier661]

That is per game, not per 48.

Well shit man.... I guess I can just make PERs then. Should give you an all around average yes?

 

[mook]

Highest scoring does not equal best.

 

[magnifier661]

Well just adding up "PER" as being one of the best factors on overall value; our team is pretty close to the 2 best in the league. Miami is no question the best "PER" starters, but we are only 3 behind OKC.

 

[magnifier661]

Highest scoring does not equal best.

We outperformed them in rebounding, steals and assists too. The other teams have a better PER though.

 

[mook]

We outperformed them in rebounding, steals and assists too. The other teams have a better PER though.

Well, there are probably 10 or so teams with a better defensive starting 5. Hickson may be the worst defensive center in the league, and Lillard is probably bottom 5 at his position.

Batum and Wes are near the top at their positions, and I consider Aldridge average, but the falloff after that brings them down to mediocre.

Hickson is so bad I actually don't mind seeing Jarred Jeffries out there for significant minutes. No fan should have to say that.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I think our starters production would go down though with a decent bench. I do think we have three very good starters though.

 

[magnifier661]

Well, there are probably 10 or so teams with a better defensive starting 5. Hickson may be the worst defensive center in the league, and Lillard is probably bottom 5 at his position.

Batum and Wes are near the top at their positions, and I consider Aldridge average, but the falloff after that brings them down to mediocre.

Hickson is so bad I actually don't mind seeing Jarred Jeffries out there for significant minutes. No fan should have to say that.

You are probably right in terms of "defensive stats". But the core group of Aldridge, Lillard, Matthews and Batum are pretty good. If you add a true defensive minded Center and a bench scorer with 2 defensive bench players; then you got a contending team.

 

[magnifier661]

I think our starters production would go down though with a decent bench. I do think we have three very good starters though.

I agree about the bench taking some of the statistical averages down a bit; but sometimes I just think when we have to play so many minutes cause our bench sucks so bad; it fucks up our efficiency.

 

[oldguy]

Seems like you would have to at least look at the minutes played by the starters. If they are very close is one thing. If our starters are playing a lot more minutes, I think you would have to normalize that by looking at per 36 (or 48) minute stats.

Go Blazers

Edit: But I think what you've shown sure indicates that our starters are NOT the problem.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

You are probably right in terms of "defensive stats". But the core group of Aldridge, Lillard, Matthews and Batum are pretty good. If you add a true defensive minded Center and a bench scorer with 2 defensive bench players; then you got a contending team.

I agree with you in theory. The one glaring weakness in our starting 5 to me is that LMA and Hickson are both poor at defensive recognition/help and are very slow to react on defense. If that doesn't improve and they continue to be our big man presence in the starting 5, well, you know.

 

[blue9]

Is there a starting 5 that plays as many minutes as ours?

 

[mook]

You are probably right in terms of "defensive stats". But the core group of Aldridge, Lillard, Matthews and Batum are pretty good. If you add a true defensive minded Center and a bench scorer with 2 defensive bench players; then you got a contending team.

Maybe. It depends on how good the center is. A Przybilla type? Probably not. A Mutombo or Ben Wallace in their prime? Yes.

Hibbert? Maybe. Depends on the bench.

But anyway, yeah, I love 4 of our starters. Not eager to trade any of our core. It's just unfortunate that we have so few other assets that we can trade with. Here's to hoping we can pick up some cut rate bargains like Hickson was.

 

[magnifier661]

Seems like you would have to at least look at the minutes played by the starters. If they are very close is one thing. If our starters are playing a lot more minutes, I think you would have to normalize that by looking at per 36 (or 48) minute stats.

Go Blazers

Edit: But I think what you've shown sure indicates that our starters are NOT the problem.

I would guess our minutes probably trump all starting 5's, but I will post the ones I used as a reference.

Portland total starter minutes are: 180.20 total minutes.
Miami Starter total: 141.7 total minutes (+38.5)
OKC starter minutes: 238.10 total minutes. (-57.9) <-- This really surprises me

 

[magnifier661]

Is there a starting 5 that plays as many minutes as ours?

OKC starters play 57.9 more minutes than ours do. Miami's plays much less -38 minutes

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I would guess our minutes probably trump all starting 5's, but I will post the ones I used as a reference.

Portland total starter minutes are: 180.20 total minutes.
Miami Starter total: 141.7 total minutes (+38.5)
OKC starter minutes: 238.10 total minutes. (-57.9) <-- This really surprises me

this isnt true thats an average of 47.62 mpg

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i count 162.1 mpg for westbrook/thabo/durant/ibaka/perkins

 

[blue9]

OKC starters play 57.9 more minutes than ours do. Miami's plays much less -38 minutes

That's really surprising. Although I guess you have to consider that Hickson really plays limited minutes, which pulls the average down.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Maybe you should look at the 5-man-unit performances on 82games.com for each teams' starting 5 (?)

 

[magnifier661]

this isnt true thats an average of 47.62 mpg

Maybe I didn't do the math right.

Durant: 39.6
Westbrook: 36.4
Ibaka: 32.5
Sef: 28.7
Perk: 24.9

Total: 162.1

LMAO! I must have + one too many times!

 

[magnifier661]

That's really surprising. Although I guess you have to consider that Hickson really plays limited minutes, which pulls the average down.

I was wrong about OKC. I added something wrong. The right number I just posted.

 

[magnifier661]

Maybe you should look at the 5-man-unit performances on 82games.com for each teams' starting 5 (?)

I keep forgetting 82 games man! It pisses me off cause I wanted to go to that link right away.

 

[magnifier661]

Maybe you should look at the 5-man-unit performances on 82games.com for each teams' starting 5 (?)

HOLY SHIT!!!!!

http://www.82games.com/1213/1213POR.HTM

There isn't a single + rating for any bench player? Hickson is only a +0.1?!?!

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Tm Minutes Off Def +/- W L Win%
POR 682.9 1.07 1.07 -9 13 20 39.3
OKC 697.8 1.09 1.02 +98 24 19 55.8
MIA 322.3 1.15 1.01 +88 14 7 66.6


I don't think we really compare all that well...

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Maybe you should look at the 5-man-unit performances on 82games.com for each teams' starting 5 (?)

i can tell you without looking that leonard swapped with hickson is a large net gain

 

[PtldPlatypus]

i can tell you without looking that leonard swapped with hickson is a large net gain

I can tell you, having looked, that you're right.

Except for the points the refs dock us for playing a white American-born center.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Highest scoring does not equal best.

I would agree. The only way to look at this fairly is to look at offensive and defensive points per possession differential for every starting unit.

 

[magnifier661]

i can tell you without looking that leonard swapped with hickson is a large net gain

Yeah almost double the Win%

It amazes me that Lillard-Batum-Claver-Aldridge-Hickson is pretty good too