Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th seed

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Even Denny, who hates me, agrees.

It's not a matter of opinion. It is fact that only 1 of the last 48 lottery winning picks has won a title for the team that drafted him. That can't be debated. And who knows? Maybe Oden will continue the tradition by winning a title for another team.

 

[blue9]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

[OKC will] be looked upon as one of the favorites to come out of the West this year. But they're the shining example of the best case for a draft rebuild. Houston, the Clippers, the Grizzlies and the Warriors are all snapping at their heels and they are examples of what can be done by a team making trades and adding players through free agency to make the leap from the Blazers' level to contending status. And please don't bring up the tired old argument that the Blazers can never add a quality FA because they're a small market team. FA signings like Iguodala and Kevin Martin show that many players are looking for teams that are on the cusp of becoming contenders.

I think that we absolutely MUST use the 3-pronged approach to building a contender. Trading LMA for multiple pieces will make it easier, and quicker, to do so, and it really won't throw us back into the "dark ages". I think we can agree that the "FA prong" is the last card that we'll be able to play - only if we're successful in building a competitive team through the draft and trades will quality FAs be drawn to the team.
Also, I disagree with you that OKC are the favorites to come out of the West. I don't see them recovering from the Harden trade.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

By the way- we have a #2, #5, and #6. Shouldn't that be enough? Or will Aldridge and Lillard ultimately win titles elsewhere. That's the pattern in the modern NBA.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

It's not a matter of opinion. It is fact that only 1 of the last 48 lottery winning picks has won a title for his team. That can't be debated.

Neither can most teams that have competed for a title have had at least 1 top pick on the team.

Your point makes no sense because the argument is about competing for a title. You compete for a title with high lottery picks. (most of the time) Saying a player didn't stay on a particular team means nothing. Without injuries, Roy, Aldridge and probably Oden are all here right now competing for titles. With a decent front office, Lebron is probably in Cleveland still. Miller, Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Durant, Dirk, Kobe, Olajuwan, Ewing, Wade, Pierce, Jordan, etc...all stayed

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I think that we absolutely MUST use the 3-pronged approach to building a contender. Trading LMA for multiple pieces will make it easier, and quicker, to do so, and it really won't throw us back into the "dark ages". I think we can agree that the "FA prong" is the last card that we'll be able to play - only if we're successful in building a competitive team through the draft and trades will quality FAs be drawn to the team.
Also, I disagree with you that OKC are the favorites to come out of the West. I don't see them recovering from the Harden trade.

Yes, let's continue the tradition by helping Aldridge win a title elsewhere like we did with Drexler and Sheed. Those two won a title only a few months after we traded them.

 

[BBert]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I get that Portland may already have two 'star' players (probably). Aldridge isn't exactly a household name, but he is an all star. Lillard was rookie of the year, he probably 'becomes' a bonafide star - or at least as much of a 'star' as he can become playing so far away from the major media lights. We hope so, at least. IF LaMarcus is content with staying in Portland, then by all means play for the playoffs, get some playoff seasoning, and go from there. What we don't know for sure, but many suspect, is that he wants out. If so, unless we trade for a 'star' to replace him (not likely, IMO), it's back to the lottery to mine for one.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Yes, let's continue the tradition by helping Aldridge win a title elsewhere like we did with Drexler and Sheed. Those two won a title only a few months after we traded them.

Because our team was not in position to do so itself

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Not sure why you include players that failed to win a title. I'm not interested in second place. At all. Why won't you acknowledge that the top picks win with other teams in the modern era? Shaq, LeBron, Pau, Rasheed, KG won 10 of the last 14 titles but Orlando, Cleveland, Memphis, Washington, and Minnesota won nothing. How can you ignore that?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Almost all those championship teams had key players (like Isaiah Thomas on the Pistons) drafted by and developed by their team.

Pippen/Jordan
Duncan
Wade
Nowitzki
Kobe
Pierce
Duncan
Stockton
Malone

etc.

Dirk wasn't drafted by Dallas, and he wasn't a top 5 pick. Same for Kobe. He wasn't drafted by the Lakers and he wasn't a top 5 pick. All the other guys were drafted >16 years ago. How many different CBAs has the NBA gone through in those 16+ years. What worked when Jordan, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, etc. were drafted no longer works. The rules have changed.

BNM

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Dirk wasn't drafted by Dallas, and he wasn't a top 5 pick. Same for Kobe. He wasn't drafted by the Lakers and he wasn't a top 5 pick. All the other guys were drafted >16 years ago. How many different CBAs has the NBA gone through in those 16+ years. What worked when Jordan, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, etc. were drafted no longer works. The rules have changed.

BNM

Bingo

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I think that we absolutely MUST use the 3-pronged approach to building a contender. Trading LMA for multiple pieces will make it easier, and quicker, to do so...

I disagree. You are assuming we will get someone BETTER than Aldridge and that they'll be better very soon. We would be relying on chance (the lottery), timing (having a top pick in THE right draft) and circumstance (drafting the right player, that he doesn't get injured, etc.) way too much. But say we did get lucky in the lottery in a year when a clear cut future Hall of Famer is available, how long before that player will be good enough to make us title contenders? It took Jordan 6 years to reach the finals. Shaq and LeBron made the finals rather early, but didn't win until they went to other teams. So, say we get lucky, get that once a decade superstar, after 4 years he can force his way out to the bright lights of LA or South Beach. Seems like an awful lot things have to go right, and then that great player you drafted and developed is likely to leave you. So you get the honor of being a farm team for the Lakers or Heat and you get to start over yet again.

We have one proven all star now, and one in the making. Why not continue to build around them and see how far they can take you. Stockton and Malone never won a title, but I would have rather been a fan of the Jazz than the Clippers in the 80s and 90s. The Clippers "won" the lottery a lot more, but the Jazz won a lot more games. I'll take known good, proven talent over the luck of the draw anytime.

BNM

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I'm with you, BNM. As I said, we already have a #2, #5, and #6. Let's build around them.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I disagree about Utah, though. I do not want to be an almost team. I gues it's better than 90s Clippers like you said.

 

[blue9]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I disagree. You are assuming we will get someone BETTER than Aldridge and that they'll be better very soon.
We have one proven all star now, and one in the making. Why not continue to build around them and see how far they can take you. Stockton and Malone never won a title, but I would have rather been a fan of the Jazz than the Clippers in the 80s and 90s. The Clippers "won" the lottery a lot more, but the Jazz won a lot more games.

No, I'm not. I'm accepting of the fact that we WON'T get somebody as good as LMA. And I'm fine with that because a team that revolves around LMA will never compete for a title.
AND, if we're unlucky enough that he wants to stay in POR (which I highly doubt) that just puts us in a worse position because we'll be locking up $17-20M in a player who isn't good enough to be a key component to a title team, and plays at a loaded position where you can get 80% of the production for 50% (or less) of the cost.

 

[RoyToy]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Saying Dirk wasn't drafted by Dallas and Kobe wasn't drafted by LA is just being dishonest and a clear case of semantics.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I disagree. You are assuming we will get someone BETTER than Aldridge and that they'll be better very soon. We would be relying on chance (the lottery), timing (having a top pick in THE right draft) and circumstance (drafting the right player, that he doesn't get injured, etc.) way too much. But say we did get lucky in the lottery in a year when a clear cut future Hall of Famer is available, how long before that player will be good enough to make us title contenders? It took Jordan 6 years to reach the finals. Shaq and LeBron made the finals rather early, but didn't win until they went to other teams. So, say we get lucky, get that once a decade superstar, after 4 years he can force his way out to the bright lights of LA or South Beach. Seems like an awful lot things have to go right, and then that great player you drafted and developed is likely to leave you. So you get the honor of being a farm team for the Lakers or Heat and you get to start over yet again.

We have one proven all star now, and one in the making. Why not continue to build around them and see how far they can take you. Stockton and Malone never won a title, but I would have rather been a fan of the Jazz than the Clippers in the 80s and 90s. The Clippers "won" the lottery a lot more, but the Jazz won a lot more games. I'll take known good, proven talent over the luck of the draw anytime.

BNM

It is unlikely that we will be able to trade LMA for a superior player. It is also unlikely that letting him leave for nothing as a FA will improve the team. At some point, the team may have to choose between trading him or loosing him for that magical "salary cap flexibility" we always hear about - but which rarely results in much.

 

[PapaG]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Saying Dirk wasn't drafted by Dallas and Kobe wasn't drafted by LA is just being dishonest and a clear case of semantics.

Saying that they were drafting 9th and 13th, respectively, is what matters in this discussion.

Eight picks before Dirk in 1998 draft

1 LAC Michael Olowokandi
2 VAN Mike Bibby
3 DEN Raef LaFrentz
4 TOR Antawn Jamison
5 GSW Vince Carter
6 DAL Robert Traylor
7 SAC Jason Williams
8 PHI Larry Hughes
9 MIL Dirk Nowitzski

12 picks before Bryant in 1996 draft

1 PHI Allen Iverson
2 TOR Marcus Camby
3 VAN Shareef Abdur-Rahim
4 MIL Stephon Marbury
5 MIN Ray Allen
6 BOS Antoine Walker
7 LAC Lorenzen Wright
8 NJN Kerry Kittles
9 DAL Samaki Walker
10 IND Erick Dampier
11 GSW Todd Fuller
12 CLE Vitaly Potapenko
13 CHH Kobe Bryant

I'm not even sure what MM and Denny are arguing at this point. Tanking for top picks flies counter to the Dirk/Kobe examples that they have given.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

It is unlikely that we will be able to trade LMA for a superior player. It is also unlikely that letting him leave for nothing as a FA will improve the team. At some point, the team may have to choose between trading him or loosing him for that magical "salary cap flexibility" we always hear about - but which rarely results in much.

We have him under contract for two more seasons. I don't get why some posters seem so eager to trade him now. His trade value isn't going to go down anytime soon. And if this team shows marked improvement, the "need" to trade him may very well go away. It's also very rare that a RFA leaves for nothing. Due to the way the CBA is structured, it's almost always in both the player's best interest and the team he's leaving to work a sign and trade. You won't get equal value, but you probably wouldn't anyway if you traded him today.

I think the absolute earliest time to even consider trading Aldridge is at the trade deadline - and only then if the team is clearly not making the playoffs. And if a trade is imminent, I think a draft day trade next June may be the optimal time to get maximum value in return. I just don't understand the perceived need to trade our best player and trade him NOW. A lot can happen over the course of a season, let alone two. Why not keep your best players together a little while and see how well they gel as a team? I'd much rather watch a team with two really good players, and an improved supporting cast, trying to win games now than hoping the team loses so they get more ping pong balls in June.

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Oden, Roy, Aldridge. Surely they would have won championships if not for the injuries. Which of those guys was traded to the Blazers?

Aldridge, eh? You want to play that technicality?

That's a #1, a #6, and a #2.

That's how you build a winner, too.

It's way cheaper than winning 50 games like those Gasol era Grizzlies teams and having to hit home runs with your #24 picks.

 

[magnifier661]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Aldridge is the second best PF in the game. Too many of you are undervaluing him.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Oden, Roy, Aldridge. Surely they would have won championships if not for the injuries. Which of those guys was traded to the Blazers?

Aldridge, eh? You want to play that technicality?

That's a #1, a #6, and a #2.

That's how you build a winner, too.

It's way cheaper than winning 50 games like those Gasol era Grizzlies teams and having to hit home runs with your #24 picks.

Actually, both Roy and Aldridge were traded to the Blazers. In fact, it took two trades, one with Boston and another with Minnesota, to get Roy.

BNM

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Oden, Roy, Aldridge. Surely they would have won championships if not for the injuries. Which of those guys was traded to the Blazers?

Aldridge, eh? You want to play that technicality?

That's a #1, a #6, and a #2.

That's how you build a winner, too.

It's way cheaper than winning 50 games like those Gasol era Grizzlies teams and having to hit home runs with your #24 picks.

We had those guys in 2009 playoffs with HCA and got schooled by Houston but whatever. It sucks it didn't work out. We'd probably be good by now. Didn't we trade Foye for Roy?

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

We had those guys in 2009 playoffs with HCA and got schooled by Houston but whatever. It sucks it didn't work out. We'd probably be good by now. Didn't we trade Foye for Roy?

No patience. Jordan didn't win a championship until he was 27 or 28. The smart money was let it bake.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

No patience. Jordan didn't win a championship until he was 27 or 28. The smart money was let it bake.

So, the same age that Aldridge is now? So perhaps we should let what we have presently "bake"...

 

[e_blazer]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

I think that we absolutely MUST use the 3-pronged approach to building a contender. Trading LMA for multiple pieces will make it easier, and quicker, to do so, and it really won't throw us back into the "dark ages". I think we can agree that the "FA prong" is the last card that we'll be able to play - only if we're successful in building a competitive team through the draft and trades will quality FAs be drawn to the team.

I think that the Blazers are in a position to really advance the team without trading LMA. Looking at the three-pronged approach, they've successfully used the draft to add Lillard to go with Aldridge, giving them two excellent players. They used trades, the draft and FA signings this summer to reboot the rest of the roster with a competent center and decent backups at every position. Going forward, Olshey now has far more assets with solid trade value to make future trades. I think every player on the roster would be seen as having good trade value, with the exception of Freeland. Whether additional pieces will be needed depends upon how the new guys pan out and how fast they can fit in, but the Blazers certainly have options to make deals if they feel they are needed. FA signings in the foreseeable future will be limited to the Room MLE (this year) and the Non-Taxpayer MLE going forward, so if the Blazers are to become contenders with this core, it means that existing talent will have to grow and/or be traded for other impact players.

Also, I disagree with you that OKC are the favorites to come out of the West. I don't see them recovering from the Harden trade.

I posted: "They'll be looked upon as one of the favorites to come out of the West this year."

 

[PapaG]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Oden, Roy, Aldridge. Surely they would have won championships if not for the injuries. Which of those guys was traded to the Blazers?

Aldridge, eh? You want to play that technicality?

That's a #1, a #6, and a #2.

That's how you build a winner, too.

It's way cheaper than winning 50 games like those Gasol era Grizzlies teams and having to hit home runs with your #24 picks.

Guess what. They got injured and never even won a first-round game. When can Portland put up the 'should have won a title' banner at the RG?

 

[PapaG]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

No patience. Jordan didn't win a championship until he was 27 or 28. The smart money was let it bake.

Aren't you the same guy who says you don't build around 28 year-old players?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Guess what. They got injured and never even won a first-round game. When can Portland put up the 'should have won a title' banner at the RG?

Never won a first round series. The took Houston to 6 games that year. They also took Phoenix and Dallas to 6 games without Oden and crippled Roy.

But yeah, injuries turned Let it Bake into Let it Break.

BNM

 

[PapaG]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Never won a first round series. The took Houston to 6 games that year. They also took Phoenix and Dallas to 6 games without Oden and crippled Roy.

But yeah, injuries turned Let it Bake into Let it Break.

BNM

Clearly I made a mistake. Of course I know they didn't win a series, but won 2 games 3x in 3 years. Hell, I was at a few of those wins.

 

[KingSpeed]

Re: Blazers: Best offseason of all Westen Conference lottery teams, should be 7th see

Clearly I made a mistake. Of course I know they didn't win a series, but won 2 games 3x in 3 years. Hell, I was at a few of those wins.

I was at both wins in the Dallas series!