Brandon Roy vs Damian Lillard... Who is better?

[B-Roy]

I think people like to look back fondly on the Roy years and build him up into more than he was because he turned the franchise around. As good as Roy was, there are things that Lillard has done this year that put him in rare air. How many factoids have the Blazers put out about him? How many accomplishments has he achieved that haven't been done since Petrie in the 70s? Our entire offense was built around Roy and he never dominated in the same way that Dame has been. People will always have that "what if" attitude about Roy and his health, but in an era where point guards dominate the league, Dame is still finding a way to stand out among the rest.

Scoring records and arbitrary statline cutoffs are pretty pointless if they aren't leading to wins, imo.

 

[B-Roy]

LOL

Dude....... I guess if you want to play by those rules.

Roy - Out of the league

That's not an argument and you clearly know why.

Seriously, give me an argument why that first team is more talented than the second. The Rockets series exposed how talentless the Roy team actually was. We played 1.5 v 5 that entire series.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You can't be serious? The main reason I still hold Roy's 08-09 season in higher regard is because he led that group of nothings to 54 wins and homecourt advantage.

Seriously, which supporting cast is better:

Roy's:
Aldridge - Decent 2nd option
Oden - Couldn't even stay out of foul trouble, injured half the time
Przy - Pretty good
Rudy - Out of the league
Batum - Rookie token starter
Blake - lol
Outlaw - Out of the league
Frye - Didn't even have a 3 point shot
Sergio - Out of the league
Bayless - Barely played

Vs:

Dame's:
CJ - Decent 2nd option
Plumlee - Pretty good
Davis - Pretty good
Crabbe - Pretty good
Hendo - Pretty good
Aminu - Eh
Harkless - Eh
Leonard - Eh
Vonleh - Token rookie starter

You can't honestly tell me the first team is more talented as the second one? At worst they're even in talent, the difference is Roy's team won 54 and Dame's is on pace to win 42-43.

Serisouly? That wasn't Dames support for his first full 3 seasons. To use this years roster as comparison is as big a joke as you think the opposite is...

 

[Orion Bailey]

That's not an argument and you clearly know why.

Seriously, give me an argument why that first team is more talented than the second. The Rockets series exposed how talentless the Roy team actually was. We played 1.5 v 5 that entire series.

Dude... again.. .your using THIS YEARS roster... Not the one Dame played 82 games for three seasons with.

come on now... play fair...

 

[B-Roy]

Serisouly? That wasn't Dames support for his first full 3 seasons. To use this years roster as comparison is as big a joke as you think the opposite is...

I'm comparing Roy's best season to Dame's best season, since we are comparing peaks. I'm obviously not arguing for Roy's longitivity.

But even if you want to go that route, Dame's support in the last two seasons is more than Roy ever had, and they still didn't win more than 54.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Scoring records and arbitrary statline cutoffs are pretty pointless if they aren't leading to wins, imo.

This wasnt a team concept though. This is ROy vs Lillard. What they have done and what they could have/will do. Not how good they are if they were on a better team or worse team IMO.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'm comparing Roy's best season to Dame's best season, since we are comparing peaks. I'm obviously not arguing for Roy's longitivity.

But even if you want to go that route, Dame's support in the last two seasons is more than Roy ever had, and they still didn't win more than 54.

Again. I think your bringing in too many tangibles. Team support, wins during a season, etc. Just compare the two players.. Wins have alot to do with surrounding personnel and coaching. Leave that stuff out and just look at the two players.

Dame had little support last season compared to this year, and little support compared to ROy's in my opinion ( not including this year)

 

[B-Roy]

This wasnt a team concept though. This is ROy vs Lillard. What they have done and what they could have/will do. Not how good they are if they were on a better team or worse team IMO.

You look at everything in context. I see Roy leading a similarly talented team to more wins, while maintaining better advanced stats. I am not looking at what Dame could do. I am confident Dame will surpass Roy eventually, but he hasn't yet.

 

[Natebishop3]

That's not an argument and you clearly know why.

Seriously, give me an argument why that first team is more talented than the second. The Rockets series exposed how talentless the Roy team actually was. We played 1.5 v 5 that entire series.

Because you're underselling what Rudy did prior to that cheapshot by Ariza. You're chalking him up as some scrub. The guy broke the rookie record for three pointers that year. He was a SOLID contributor off the bench. He and Hendo are at least a push.

Let's go to the numbers!



The 08-09 team had FIVE players averaging double figures.... the current team has THREE. Rudy and Travis, who you so eloquently pointed out are no longer in the league, were averaging 10 and 12 ppg respectively.

 

[B-Roy]

Dame had little support last season compared to this year, and little support compared to ROy's in my opinion ( not including this year)

You can't seriously believe this is true, right?

 

[Daweez04]

Dame has a lot to do with why the team has been as talented as they are.

At the beginning of the season, not a single person on the board would have compared the talent level of that team to this one. Dame has elevated everyone around him.

You also have ability to look back and see "where are they now". You can't do that with this team. In 8 years, lets see how many of these guys are still in the league. There is a reason guys like Outlaw, Frye, and other went on to get paid. At the time they were perceived to be very talented, just like you are perceiving this current roster with talent.

Finally. LMA was anything but a decent 2nd option. He was a year away from carrying the team to 50 plus wins himself and entering the "best PF in the league" discussion after Roy started to decline and miss games.

 

[Natebishop3]

Plus Roy was a dick, but that won't show up in any stat sheet.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You look at everything in context. I see Roy leading a similarly talented team to more wins, while maintaining better advanced stats. I am not looking at what Dame could do. I am confident Dame will surpass Roy eventually, but he hasn't yet.

NO, you look at everything in context if that is the question.. but it wasn't. It wasn't who is the better player who had the better/worse team. I mean we can look at their youth then for context as well. Did one of them have a rougher childhood? This will make him a harder nosed defender in his later years.... come on now... you have to draw the line somewhere, and I'm drawing it at two players... try to put aside the tangible X factors of rosters and coaching and just look at the two players.

You can't seriously believe this is true, right?

Umm yes.. and Nate's post above Proves it with numbers...

 

[B-Roy]

Because you're underselling what Rudy did prior to that cheapshot by Ariza. You're chalking him up as some scrub. The guy broke the rookie record for three pointers that year. He was a SOLID contributor off the bench. He and Hendo are at least a push.

Let's go to the numbers!

View attachment 8360 View attachment 8361

The 08-09 team had FIVE players averaging double figures.... the current team has THREE. Rudy and Travis, who you so eloquently pointed out are no longer in the league, were averaging 10 and 12 ppg respectively.

I'll give Rudy a push but Outlaw and Blake NEVER averaged double digits again after playing with Roy, nor did they ever put up the same stats. If that isn't unequivocal evidence that Roy had a bigger impact on his teammates then I don't know what is.

 

[B-Roy]

Umm yes.. and Nate's post above Proves it with numbers...

Dame had Aldridge, Lopez, Matthews and Batum prior to this year. That is by far better than any team Roy ever had and also a better supporting cast than Dame had this year.

NO, you look at everything in context if that is the question.. but it wasn't. It wasn't who is the better player who had the better/worse team. I mean we can look at their youth then for context as well. Did one of them have a rougher childhood? This will make him a harder nosed defender in his later years.... come on now... you have to draw the line somewhere, and I'm drawing it at two players... try to put aside the tangible X factors of rosters and coaching and just look at the two players.

1. My argument is that Roy had a bigger impact on his team. Leading a similarly talented team to more wins = bigger impact. That definitely factors into the argument.

2. 08-09 Roy had better advanced stats than Lillard anyways. So if you're going to put aside any other factors what argument does Lillard have?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Dame had Aldridge, Lopez, Matthews and Batum prior to this year. That is by far better than any team Roy ever had and also a better supporting cast than Dame had this year.



1. My argument is that Roy had a bigger impact on his team. Leading a similarly talented team to more wins = bigger impact. That definitely factors into the argument.

2. 08-09 Roy had better advanced stats than Lillard anyways. So if you're going to put aside any other factors what argument does Lillard have?

I just think your encompassing way more into this than is needed, while at the same time trying to use a single season bench mark as the requisite to who is better.

I get what your saying, but am trying to get you to isolate your judgment a bit more than leaving it all encompassing tangibles that may/may not actually be a factor, but more opinion based.

Its your OPINION that Roy had a bigger impact because you don't know what the coach told the team to do in every instance.

Im sure your able to put aside these tangibles and just compare the two side by side, no?

I would also question Mathews, Batum and Rolo being any better than what Roy had. That is very debatable. Those guys were elevated by the team and their stats on other teams are now showing that. Another reason id like you to try to put teammates aside and focus strictly on the player themselves.

 

[B-Roy]

I just think your encompassing way more into this than is needed, while at the same time trying to use a single season bench mark as the requisite to who is better.

I get what your saying, but am trying to get you to isolate your judgment a bit more than leaving it all encompassing tangibles that may/may not actually be a factor, but more opinion based.

Its your OPINION that Roy had a bigger impact because you don't know what the coach told the team to do in every instance.

Im sure your able to put aside these tangibles and just compare the two side by side, no?

Again. I am only arguing for 08-09 Roy. If you want to toss 07-08 or injured Roy into the discussion I would agree with you. But I am ONLY talking about 08-09 Roy, because we are talking about a player that is no longer in the league, and whether a player we currently have has matched him.

If you're looking at careers, I think Dame already has a better argument, but he hasn't matched Roy's best.

I would also question Mathews, Batum and Rolo being any better than what Roy had. That is very debatable. Those guys were elevated by the team and their stats on other teams are now showing that. Another reason id like you to try to put teammates aside and focus strictly on the player themselves.

Just for the sake of argument, Batum, Aldridge and Lopez are at or above their career numbers. Only Matthews hasn't been as good this year, but he's coming off a potentially career altering injury.

 

[Draco]

In Roy's best season he was a bit better. Problem is he got injured a week before the playoffs and was never the same. The year prior in the Houston series he wasn't quite at his peak yet. His career was tragically cut short so Dame will surpass him as a player.

Roy was better able to get to the rim or free throw line when we needed a bucket.

Dame is a much better leader and teammate. Not that Roy was bad; he was good at it. Dame is one of the best leaders ever.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Again. I am only arguing for 08-09 Roy. If you want to toss 07-08 or injured Roy into the discussion I would agree with you. But I am ONLY talking about 08-09 Roy, because we are talking about a player that is no longer in the league, and whether a player we currently have has matched him.

If you're looking at careers, I think Dame already has a better argument, but he hasn't matched Roy's best.

OKayyyyy... but the question wasn't who had the better season... I think this is why your meeting so many walls/ butting heads. Your trying to grasp onto something that wasn't in the question. Who is the better player. Not who had the better supporting cast, or who had the better single season... or even who was more injury prone.
Do you think a single season is the benchmark of one's career?

Put all that crap aside Imagine if Roy had good knees... or the Roy prior to injury. Compare the two and how you see their careers going. Who do you think is better?

Just for the sake of argument, Batum, Aldridge and Lopez are at or above their career numbers. Only Matthews hasn't been as good this year, but he's coming off a potentially career altering injury.

Ill have to revisit the others guys stats for this year, but earlier on, they were but a fraction of last year. I must admit, its been a while since I looked at their numbers or season thus far... but again... its moot, because it wasn't a qualifying factor in the question

 

[BigGameDamian]

Plus Roy was a dick, but that won't show up in any stat sheet.

Dick smick. I don't care as long as there winning.

 

[B-Roy]

Put all that crap aside Imagine if Roy had good knees... or the Roy prior to injury. Compare the two and how you see their careers going. Who do you think is better?

I don't care to delve into that question, because then you're just looking at hypotheticals more than anything. If that's what you want to argue then consider me bowing out.

 

[BigGameDamian]

C.J. has a degree in journalism.

 

[Natebishop3]

Dick smick. I don't care as long as there winning.

We weren't winning. We never got out of the first round.

 

[Strenuus]

Dame, and it's not even close.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I don't care to delve into that question, because then you're just looking at hypotheticals more than anything. If that's what you want to argue then consider me bowing out.

Oh god... really? If you cant answer the way YOU want, then your out? geez...

Secondly, you dont think taking Roys injury into account is hypothetical?

This is ALL hypothetical, im just trying to reign in the borders a bit. Sorry you cant be corralled and continue the discussion, but what you are arguing about are also hypotheticals. We dont truly KNOW if Roy made Blake better or worse. We dont really KNOW whether LMA and Dame made Wesley better... those are all tangibles that are opinion based because we werent in the huddles, at the practices, or sleeping with the coach to know who was truly calling all the shots(plays) for who in every instance.

 

[B-Roy]

Oh god... really? If you cant answer the way YOU want, then your out? geez...

Secondly, you dont think taking Roys injury into account is hypothetical?

This is ALL hypothetical, im just trying to reign in the borders a bit. Sorry you cant be corralled and continue the discussion, but what you are arguing about are also hypotheticals. We dont truly KNOW if Roy made Blake better or worse. We dont really KNOW whether LMA and Dame made Wesley better... those are all tangibles that are opinion based because we werent in the huddles, at the practices, or sleeping with the coach to know who was truly calling all the shots(plays) for who in every instance.

I think you're taking this a bit too seriously.

 

[BlazerWookee]

<BANGS HEAD ON DESK>

 

[Orion Bailey]

I think you're taking this a bit too seriously.

HAHA... on the contrary, your the one who said he quit if he couldn't answer the way he wanted...

There is nothing too serious about this.. its just a comparison of players, but some people (like yourself) are trying to envelope ever little thing possible, including rosters and single season outputs. I'm trying to get us on the same path of discussion is all. The two players... nothing more nothing less.

Its all good, and I actually have a point to this thread and discussion that I will reveal once most have expressed their view.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

How soon all of you forget...

Roy put the Jail Blazer era out of its misery and saved the Blazers and basketball for Portland.

Paul Allen had put the Blazers for sale. The Blazers didn't even own the Rose Garden anymore. This entire franchise was a disaster. Privately, Mayor Tom Potter would have let the Blazers out of the arena agreement for far less than the lease stated to avoid a long court battle.

It was Roy's magical rookie season that brought the fans back and more importantly made Paul Allen fall in love with the team again. He took the team off the market and bought back the Rose Garden.

Brandon Roy saved the Portland Trail Blazers.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I think you're taking this a bit too seriously.

I will admit though, I am piss poor at reading sarcasm and/or jokes vs seriousness on here. I suck at it. I take most things literally.. a fault of mine.