Bye, bye, Andre Miller

[PapaG]

Talk to Laker fans about Derek Fisher or Sasha Vujacic last season. Neither guy was stellar. Their point guard corp right now isn't the best in the world, which is probably why they signed Blake in the first place. They were looking for help at that position, but it's obvious they didn't find it in Blake.

The PJ PG is almost never "stellar". I think there has been one with a season of PER at 15 (Steve Kerr, if memory serves, and mainly because he shot over 50% from 3pt.).

The lack of people on this board who can understand that there are role players who may not be shiny in stats, but who help win games, has always puzzled me. You talk about "cogs in a machine", yet you also then use it against a player who is winning but not a good PER player.

 

[RoyToy]

You're right... he wouldn't accept his role as a backup point guard behind a terrible player. I don't blame him. It had nothing to do with "running the show" or who's team it was, he just wanted to play. You fault him for that? Also, Roy has pouted since day one about having Miller on his team, and that pouting continues to this day. Roy is the captain of this team, you think that's appropriate behavior from the captain?

Roy didn't pout from day 1. He said he felt more comfortable next to Blake. He had played with Blake for a couple years and Blake played well to Roy's strengths. That's not pouting.... That's telling it like it is.

The team, Roy and McMillan were all comfortable with the starting 5. Who wasn't? Miller. He had to have it his way. IMO I think he thought this team needed a leader on offense when that simply wasn't the case. He then pouted while coming off the bench because he felt he was entitled to start on a team that was a 54 win team without him. He wouldn't accept his role and he made little effort to try and make it work. It started with him, not Roy.

It's a shame the city turned on Roy because of it. Anyone with a clue can see Miller pouted first, not Roy.

 

[Minstrel]

I never said the triangle suppresses PGs. I said that a high PER is not an accurate measurement for the PG in the PJ system.

Why? If the triangle doesn't suppress point guards, why wouldn't PER be an accurate measure of point guards in the triangle?

If that is 'intellectually dishonest' to you, well, I don't think pointing out hard statistics is ever dishonest. Questioning the integrity of that post seems like an admission that you really can't combat the raw data, though.

Posting stats isn't intellectually dishonest. The point you make with them can be. Claiming that because almost every point guard Jackson has had posted poor PERs, you can't use PER to accurately measure triangle point guards is pretty intellectually dishonest, IMO, when you don't account for the fact that none of those point guards were good players offensively.

The fact that you keep saying "All I did was factually post factual stats that were factual" seems like an admission that you really can't combat the logic of the argument, though.

 

[Natebishop3]

So Michael Jordan isn't to be credited for winning 6 NBA titles, as he was just a "cog in a machine". LOL

Was he the only reason why they won those 6 NBA Titles? If he was, I stand corrected.

 

[Minstrel]

So Michael Jordan isn't to be credited for winning 6 NBA titles, as he was just a "cog in a machine". LOL

Correct. He was the best player on a team that won 6 NBA titles. He didn't win 6 NBA titles himself.

I thought that was the definition of team sports--teams win games and titles, players contribute to team wins and team titles.

Some players contribute more than others. Michael Jordan contributed more to his teams than Andre Miller does. And Andre Miller contributes more to his teams than Steve Blake does.

 

[Natebishop3]

Roy didn't pout from day 1. He said he felt more comfortable next to Blake. He had played with Blake for a couple years and Blake played well to Roy's strengths. That's not pouting.... That's telling it like it is.

The team, Roy and McMillan were all comfortable with the starting 5. Who wasn't? Miller. He had to have it his way. IMO I think he thought this team needed a leader on offense when that simply wasn't the case. He then pouted while coming off the bench because he felt he was entitled to start on a team that was a 54 win team without him. He wouldn't accept his role and he made little effort to try and make it work. It started with him, not Roy.

It's a shame the city turned on Roy because of it. Anyone with a clue can see Miller pouted first, not Roy.

Sounds like a lot of conjecture on your part. "I think he thought this team needed a leader on offense when that simply wasn't the case." What are you basing that opinion on? Any facts or are you just spit balling?

Miller was obviously frustrated because he was playing behind a guy who couldn't hold his jock strap. Period. Who cares how many games the team won.... they brought him in to play point guard, and he should be starting over someone who is obviously inferior. If the Blazers brought in LeBron James, should he play behind Batum because Batum was here when we won 54 games two seasons ago?

Also, you say that Roy was just telling it like it is..... but he was doing so publicly... you think that was appropriate behavior for a team leader?

 

[RoyToy]

Sounds like a lot of conjecture on your part. "I think he thought this team needed a leader on offense when that simply wasn't the case." What are you basing that opinion on? Any facts or are you just spit balling?

Miller was obviously frustrated because he was playing behind a guy who couldn't hold his jock strap. Period. Who cares how many games the team won.... they brought him in to play point guard, and he should be starting over someone who is obviously inferior. If the Blazers brought in LeBron James, should he play behind Batum because Batum was here when we won 54 games two seasons ago?

Also, you say that Roy was just telling it like it is..... but he was doing so publicly... you think that was appropriate behavior for a team leader?

Bold part...I simply said it was my opinion, not too mention McMillan told Miller to his face that Miller doesn't play how the Blazers like the play. That's a pretty big indicator to me.

They specifically brought Miller in to be the backup PG and it was reported McMillan said that during their meeting before signing him. The plan all along was for him to be the backup. Miller wouldn't accept it...from day 1. He made no effort. It had to be his way and not the way of the coach that won 54 games without him. LeBron thing is a terrible comparison and that's all I say about it.

Roy was asked who he preferred playing with. He said Blake. Wow! Bad guy right there! Nvm the coach agreed with him 100%. Roy is a bad guy!

 

[PapaG]

Why? If the triangle doesn't suppress point guards, why wouldn't PER be an accurate measure of point guards in the triangle?

I was talking specifically about PJ's variation of the triangle, and that stats show that PER isn't necessarily an indicator of whether or not a PG is a good fit for that system. NateBishop pointed out earlier about Laker fans complaining about Fisher and Sasha (which is odd, because Sasha isn't really a PG), yet when it came time to assess the PG position, Jordan Farmar, with a PER of 12.3, was let go, while Fisher was retained, along with SUCKY Steve Blake being brought on board.

I think you're the one being intellectually dishonest, frankly, since you're not addressing what I actually posted about the PJ triangle.

 

[Boob-No-More]

BLANKY is hitting 40% of his threes, which of course you don't mention. I posted a long list of PER and how it relates to PGs in Phil Jackson's offense a month ago, and you ignored it. PER is worthless when assessing a triangle PG; look at the history of that position under Phil Jackson before you go and post a bunch of irrelevant statistics next time. The PG has one primary offensive goal in PJ's offense; hit open three point shots.

Well, if that's his primary job, you just proved he sucks worse than any stat I've ever posted. He's hit a whopping total of 5 3-pointers in his last 13 games. In 9 of those 13 games he didn't hit a single 3-pointer. Sound to me like someone isn't doing their job. And, if he's not hitting 3s, Blake is useless in all other aspects of the game.

BLANKY does that better than Andre Miller ever could.

At shooting 3-pointers. Unfortunately, for Blanky, and his supports, Andre Miller does EVERYTHING else better. Maybe Blake should just enter the 3-point shooting contest All-Star weekend and take the rest of the season off.

Andre Miller is a ballhog

Please provide some data to support this erroneous assertion (here's a clue: You can't, because your statement is false). Miller averages 10.4 FGA/G and 7.3 AST/G, or 416 FGA and 290 AST for the season. That's 1.43 FGA/AST. That's serious pass-first PG territory. Of the 24 players averaging => 5.0 AST/G, only six have a lower FGA/AST ratio than Andre Miller. So, in spite of being the second best player on his team, there are only 6 other starting PGs in the entire league LESS likely to call their own number. I get it, you HATE Andre Miller, but if you're going to constantly bash the guy, at least stick to the facts.

BNM

 

[PapaG]

Correct. He was the best player on a team that won 6 NBA titles. He didn't win 6 NBA titles himself.

I thought that was the definition of team sports--teams win games and titles, players contribute to team wins and team titles.

Some players contribute more than others. Michael Jordan contributed more to his teams than Andre Miller does. And Andre Miller contributes more to his teams than Steve Blake does.

Not in terms of winning games. The team won 54 games with BLANKLY, with Miller, 50, and Miller choked in the playoffs.

 

[PapaG]

Andre Miller does EVERYTHING else better. Maybe Blake should just enter the 3-point shooting contest All-Star weekend and take the rest of the season off.

Miller is a worse perimeter defender than BLANKY, which I though was impossible, but then it happened.

Tis team is not going anywhere with Andre Miller, he has pouted from Day One, and he can't defend. Why am I supposed to embrace him? Hell, people kill Roy for doing the same thing Miller does in public, yet Roy was an All-Star/franchise player.

Miller is a footnote in NBA history. Get rid of him while he still have value.

 

[oldguy]

...

Andre Miller is a ballhog who can't shoot and can't defend. I certainly don't advocate waiving him, but if he isn't traded at the deadline, it will be a huge gaffe by this organization.

Dre averages 10.4 attempts per game. That's not a ball hog. He shoots 46% from the field, which is pretty decent for a guard.

Go Blazers

Edit: Sorry BNM, you beat me to this point. Good point, Boob!

 

[Natebishop3]

Bold part...I simply said it was my opinion, not too mention McMillan told Miller to his face that Miller doesn't play how the Blazers like the play. That's a pretty big indicator to me.

They specifically brought Miller in to be the backup PG and it was reported McMillan said that during their meeting before signing him. The plan all along was for him to be the backup. Miller wouldn't accept it...from day 1. He made no effort. It had to be his way and not the way of the coach that won 54 games without him. LeBron thing is a terrible comparison and that's all I say about it.

Roy was asked who he preferred playing with. He said Blake. Wow! Bad guy right there! Nvm the coach agreed with him 100%. Roy is a bad guy!

Miller was not brought in "specifically to be the backup point guard." That's total crap. McMillan said that he envisioned a unit in which Miller would be the backup, but I don't think Kevin Pritchard would have spent all their cap space on a guy who was going to play backup. Not happening.

LeBron is perfectly fine comparison. The point is, you don't bring in a guy who is clearly better than the guy who was there the year before and then bring him off the bench. You don't see the Heat starting James Jones over LeBron James, do you? Who cares how many games the team won the year before.... are you seriously comparing last seasons team with the team the year before?

Convenient that you, and PapaG, are forgetting about all the injuries last season and this season. It has nothing to do with chemistry or who plays better with who. This team has been ravaged by injuries the past two years and that has NOTHING to do with Andre Miller. Seriously, you'd think that Miller was the reason why this team has gone from an up-and-coming playoff team two years ago to a team struggling to stay above .500.

 

[Minstrel]

and that stats show that PER isn't necessarily an indicator of whether or not a PG is a good fit for that system.

That's a completely different argument than the one you were making before. It may (or may not, but I'd listen to any reasoning you have) be that a point guard capable of accumulating a high PER isn't the best fit for the triangle.

What you were arguing before was that PER does not accurately measure "triangle point guards"...an argument for which you have offered up no reasoning in support. Simply quoting PERs of Phil Jackson point guards doesn't support it, because a much likelier reason for that is that the point guards Jackson had weren't particularly good players and PER was measuring them accurately as below average.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Dre averages 10.4 attempts per game. That's not a ball hog. He shoots 46% from the field, which is pretty decent for a guard.

Go Blazers

Please stop with the FACTS. They are completely irrelevant to this discussion. If the Miller haters say it enough, they hope "Andre Miller is a ball hog" will be accepted as fact - even if there is absolutely NO evidence to support this claim.

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

Not in terms of winning games. The team won 54 games with BLANKLY, with Miller, 50, and Miller choked in the playoffs.

BLANKY won 54 games with a completely healthy team. Andre Miller won 50 games last year with Juwan Howard as our center for half the games.

 

[Minstrel]

Not in terms of winning games.

Yes, in terms of winning games. Miller provides more value on the court, and greater value is greater contribution to winning games. Since this isn't an individual sport, teammates matter, so win totals don't measure individual players.

 

[PapaG]

That's a completely different argument than the one you were making before. It may (or may not, but I'd listen to any reasoning you have) be that a point guard capable of accumulating a high PER isn't the best fit for the triangle.

What you were arguing before was that PER does not accurately measure "triangle point guards"...an argument for which you have offered up no reasoning in support. Simply quoting PERs of Phil Jackson point guards doesn't support it, because a much likelier reason for that is that the point guards Jackson had weren't particularly good players and PER was measuring them accurately as below average.

That's untrue, Minstrel. I used PJ's PG PERs (say that fast 3x) solely because I was illustrating the history of PER in that system. At this point, it is you who are most definitely being intellectually dishonest, since you can't argue my point.

 

[RoyToy]

Miller was not brought in "specifically to be the backup point guard." That's total crap. McMillan said that he envisioned a unit in which Miller would be the backup, but I don't think Kevin Pritchard would have spent all their cap space on a guy who was going to play backup. Not happening.

There, you just said it yourself. This point cannot be ignored. Miller was to be the backup, period.

Convenient that you, and PapaG, are forgetting about all the injuries last season and this season. It has nothing to do with chemistry or who plays better with who. This team has been ravaged by injuries the past two years and that has NOTHING to do with Andre Miller. Seriously, you'd think that Miller was the reason why this team has gone from an up-and-coming playoff team two years ago to a team struggling to stay above .500.

That's nice, but now we're getting OT. This started talking about Roy and Miller and who's most responsible for the lack of chemistry. IMO, it's Miller. He was brought to a 54 win team and wouldn't accept his role. That's pretty bad.

 

[PapaG]

Yes, in terms of winning games. Miller provides more value on the court, and greater value is greater contribution to winning games. Since this isn't an individual sport, teammates matter, so win totals don't measure individual players.

I assess players by wins. As a pseudo-elite PG, Miller's lack of success in winning even a single playoff series has always troubled me since he was signed. Nothing I've seen from him in the past year and a half has changed that opinion. There was a reason he was still available late in the summer of '09.

Miller hasn't changed his game a bit, and the franchise is floundering. Another example of "correlation", I guess.

 

[Minstrel]

What you were arguing before was that PER does not accurately measure "triangle point guards"...an argument for which you have offered up no reasoning in support.

That's untrue, Minstrel. I used PJ's PG PERs (say that fast 3x) solely because I was illustrating the history of PER in that system.

I said that a high PER is not an accurate measurement for the PG in the PJ system.

See? I support my claims.

 

[Natebishop3]

There, you just said it yourself. This point cannot be ignored. Miller was to be the backup, period.




That's nice, but now we're getting OT. This started talking about Roy and Miller and who's most responsible for the lack of chemistry. IMO, it's Miller. He was brought to a 54 win team and wouldn't accept his role. That's pretty bad.

You said "they". Nate McMillan does not represent Paul Allen, Kevin Pritchard, or Tom Penn. You think the front office signed Miller to be the backup? He was brought in because Blake was abused in the playoffs against Houston. Period. You guys keep pointing to this 54 win mark.... seriously.... get over it. That team is gone. Miller didn't get to play with that team, either because of injuries or because of trades. It's not his fault that he has never played with a healthy Blazers team.

 

[Minstrel]

I assess players by wins.

Illogical, but this is a free country. I guess you're unaware that it's a team sport.

 

[oldguy]

I was talking specifically about PJ's variation of the triangle, and that stats show that PER isn't necessarily an indicator of whether or not a PG is a good fit for that system. NateBishop pointed out earlier about Laker fans complaining about Fisher and Sasha (which is odd, because Sasha isn't really a PG), yet when it came time to assess the PG position, Jordan Farmar, with a PER of 12.3, was let go, while Fisher was retained, along with SUCKY Steve Blake being brought on board.

I think you're the one being intellectually dishonest, frankly, since you're not addressing what I actually posted about the PJ triangle.

So, which of PJ's PG's would have posted a 19 PER in a different offense?

Go Blazers

 

[Minstrel]

[Miller] was brought to a 54 win team and McMillan made a terrible decision to have him backup a much worse player. That's pretty bad. To McMillan's eventual credit, he realized how silly that decision was and changed his mind. Sadly, many posters in this forum aren't as good at admitting their own mistakes about Miller.

Fixed.

 

[RoyToy]

You said "they". Nate McMillan does not represent Paul Allen, Kevin Pritchard, or Tom Penn. You think the front office signed Miller to be the backup? He was brought in because Blake was abused in the playoffs against Houston. Period. You guys keep pointing to this 54 win mark.... seriously.... get over it. That team is gone. Miller didn't get to play with that team, either because of injuries or because of trades. It's not his fault that he has never played with a healthy Blazers team.

The team brought Miller in because he was supposed to be a veteran and a professional, like Juwan Howard. Guys who can come in and play a role on a team that won 54 games. Miller did not do that. His 'pride' was more important than what the team wanted out of him.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

And Andre Miller contributes more to his teams than Steve Blake does.

Not in terms of winning games. The team won 54 games with BLANKLY, with Miller, 50, and Miller choked in the playoffs.

Actually, on that 54-win team, Blake contributed (earned?) 5.8 win-shares, at a rate of 0.128 WS/48. Last year, Miller had 7.0 win-shares, 0.134 WS/48. So comparing Blake in 08-09 to Miller in 09-10, Miller did, in fact, contribute more to his team winning games than Blake did.

Going further, that 08-09 WS/48 figure for Blake was BY FAR the best of his career; the highest he's ever been otherwise was the 0.082 he had in 51 games with us last year. Yet, even in a career year, he is just slightly better than Miller's career average of 0.125 WS/48.

 

[RoyToy]

Fixed.

You're certainly entitled to your view on the matter.

 

[oldguy]

The team brought Miller in because he was supposed to be a veteran and a professional, like Juwan Howard. Guys who can come in and play a role on a team that won 54 games. Miller did not do that. His 'pride' was more important than what the team wanted out of him.

As opposed to what; Roy's comfort is more important to him than starting a superior player over is buddy?

Go Blazers

 

[Minstrel]

You're certainly entitled to your view on the matter.

Thanks! I'm also happy to have the statistical evidence on my side, and McMillan's change of mind on my side. But it is, still, an opinion for sure. And I am totally entitled to hold it.