Politics Can Pete Buttigieg beat Trump? (1 Viewer)

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TorturedBlazerFan said:
Why would anyone not a, “Bernie bro”, care if his supporters can say they would've beaten Trump. Its like Blazer fans saying they would've beaten the pacers in 2000, no one outside of Portland fans cares.
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Soon we will all be Bernie Bros. Resistance is futile: you will be assimilated.
 
yankeesince59 said:
Yup...like I've said before, unfortunately for some people, the only way to make themselves look good is to try to make someone else look bad.

Heard Bernie this morning bashing Pete because of his campaign donors.
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That’s a perfectly legitimate criticism of a presidential candidate. It’s not a smear if it’s factual.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Why would anyone not a, “Bernie bro”, care if his supporters can say they would've beaten Trump. Its like Blazer fans saying they would've beaten the pacers in 2000, no one outside of Portland fans cares.
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I care and I’m not a Bernie bro. I personally just don’t like seeing our elections run into the ground through corruption and cronyism, no matter the party involved. This whole debacle was predicted to happen by “Bernie bros” long before the caucuses and now everyone’s calling them crazy.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Which supporters are we talking about here? The noisy online ones? Do we know for a fact that those are really his supporters? Remember that it's in a lot of people's interest to stir shit up amongst Democratic campaigns so that supporters of one particular candidate start saying "I'll only vote if my guy is the candidate". I have yet to encounter an actual Bernie Bro in the real world.
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Well, it only seems to work on Bernie's supporters. Supporters of other candidates (except Yang) overwhelmingly say they'll vote for the nominee no matter who it is. But only about 50% of Bernie's supporters say that.

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So I guess maybe Bernie's supporters are more susceptible to this type of shit-stirring than most people?

barfo
 
barfo said:
Well, it only seems to work on Bernie's supporters. Supporters of other candidates (except Yang) overwhelmingly say they'll vote for the nominee no matter who it is. But only about 50% of Bernie's supporters say that.

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So I guess maybe Bernie's supporters are more susceptible to this type of shit-stirring than most people?

barfo
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Refusing to vote against your values is not “shit-stirring”. It’s called having integrity.

“Blue no matter who” is a bullshit bully tactic and a license for the corrupt DNC to choose your candidate for you, using whatever nefarious means they see fit.
 
jonnyboy said:
Refusing to vote against your values is not “shit-stirring”.
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Oh, ok, so it's ok for Bernie people to refuse to vote for other people, but if supporters of other candidates don't vote for Bernie, it's because 'shit-stirrers' are turning them against Bernie? [I realize that I am combining yours and Rasta's points in this response, and that you may or may not agree with each other's viewpoints]

“Blue no matter who” is a bullshit bully tactic and a license for the corrupt DNC to choose your candidate for you.
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You'll have to explain how that's a 'bully tactic'. How is anyone bullied by someone saying 'I sure hope you vote for the democratic nominee, once there is one'?

barfo
 
barfo said:
Well, it only seems to work on Bernie's supporters. Supporters of other candidates (except Yang) overwhelmingly say they'll vote for the nominee no matter who it is. But only about 50% of Bernie's supporters say that.

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So I guess maybe Bernie's supporters are more susceptible to this type of shit-stirring than most people?

barfo
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Note that this is reason to cave to the Bernie Bros, because they're the second most unreasonable (after the Yang Gang) and there's a lot of them. And if you're "beat Trump no matter what" you should have no trouble caving.
 
barfo said:
That seems somewhat irrelevant to my point, since he was no longer running at that point.

barfo
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Fair enough, but I don't see Sanders guilty of more snarking at competitors than other candidates, and it really does seem as if the entire Democratic Party establishment is REALLY opposed to him being the nominee.
 
I mean, I kinda get it...he's an independent, caucusing for the (vast majority) most part with Democrats, but he's hasn't put in his party dues. In a world without "Never Trump", (lets, say, Jeb Bush or Ted Cruz was the nominee), would Bernie get anything more than Ross Perot-level votes? Or much support at all from the DNC or the Democratic base?
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Note that this is reason to cave to the Bernie Bros, because they're the second most unreasonable (after the Yang Gang) and there's a lot of them. And if you're "beat Trump no matter what" you should have no trouble caving.
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I will have no trouble caving - I'll vote for Bernie in the general. Or Yang. They are both infinitely better than Trump.

But I'll also have no trouble voting in the primary for someone else.

barfo
 
Rastapopoulos said:
This seems relevant, so Imma leave it here:
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It seems relevant, but not all that important. People getting together and trying figure out how to win the election happens all the time.
I'll bet that Bernie talks to people about how he can beat the other candidates, also.

barfo
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Fair enough, but I don't see Sanders guilty of more snarking at competitors than other candidates
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I don't either, but only if you limit it to the candidates themselves, and exclude their campaigns.

, and it really does seem as if the entire Democratic Party establishment is REALLY opposed to him being the nominee.
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I don't really see the evidence for that, myself. Who is the 'Democratic Party establishment', anyway? Tom Perez? He doesn't seem anti-Bernie to me.

barfo
 
This is the kind of slogan you come up with when you literally have no principles and stand for nothing:


(I'd still vote for him over Trump, of course.)
 
I think the big issue with Barfo's gripe is assuming Bernie supporters were democrats and involved in the political process before Bernie reached them. Many "Bernie Bros' were not part of the equation at all before Bernie was part of the equation. The rest of the DNC is doing their part in alienating Bernie supporters then expecting them to vote for a party that they only identify with because of Bernie. Instead Bernie should be acknowledged for his ability to reach new voters and bring them into the process rather than chastised for not making them part of the establishment. His appeal is that he is not part of the establishment and if he tried he would lose those supporters himself. The amount of people who Bernie (or potentially Warren) can reach is arguably greater than the amount of independents who will be gained with a moderate candidate.

If the DNC wanted to reach these voters they would do two things. 1) Acknowledge that the party is evolving and has a large progressive wing that wants to be taken seriously. 2) insist on a transparent legitimate process to select a nominee and move forward with whatever those results are. If both of those points were an agenda for the DNC then even if Bernie lost his supporters would be more likely to accept it and become part of the process which would grow the DNC base considerably.
 
donkiez said:
I think the big issue with Barfo's gripe is assuming Bernie supporters were democrats and involved in the political process before Bernie reached them. Many "Bernie Bros' were not part of the equation at all before Bernie was part of the equation. The rest of the DNC is doing their part in alienating Bernie supporters then expecting them to vote for a party that they only identify with because of Bernie. Instead Bernie should be acknowledged for his ability to reach new voters and bring them into the process rather than chastised for not making them part of the establishment. His appeal is that he is not part of the establishment and if he tried he would lose those supporters himself. The amount of people who Bernie (or potentially Warren) can reach is arguably greater than the amount of independents who will be gained with a moderate candidate.

If the DNC wanted to reach these voters they would do two things. 1) Acknowledge that the party is evolving and has a large progressive wing that wants to be taken seriously. 2) insist on a transparent legitimate process to select a nominee and move forward with whatever those results are. If both of those points were an agenda for the DNC then even if Bernie lost his supporters would be more likely to accept it and become part of the process which would grow the DNC base considerably.
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I agree with this analysis for the most part, but it is a little alarming that the turnout in Iowa was lower than in 2008, given that Bernie was supposed to bring people in.

Of course, Iowa was such a clusterfuck, I'm not sure we can take any big lesson out of it.
 
To add to the discussion about the DNC: I find it kind of laughable that the DNC establishment is so upset that Bernie's not really a Democrat. What is it to be a "Democrat"? It's pretty much a meaningless label, as are both party labels in the US, since they have to cover such a broad spectrum. It's as if the DNC views "Democrat" as like a sports team and Bernie isn't a "true fan". They should be glad that there is a guy who is pretty much the only one to inspire Trump-like devotion (while not being a sociopath) is prepared to identify as a Democrat to run, because the other candidates, however much some of us might like them, just don't do it for people.
 
Not one post in this thread mentions Pete is gay. Which is awesome.
 
barfo said:
I don't really see the evidence for that, myself. Who is the 'Democratic Party establishment', anyway? Tom Perez? He doesn't seem anti-Bernie to me.

barfo
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Not sure if this answers your question. Is Hillary part of the DNC establishment?

If so, she has been waging a 4 year long public anti-Bernie campaign.

She is on record of making many anti-Bernie quotes. Such as.

The numbers just don't add up from what Senator Sanders has been proposing- That's why all of the independent experts, all the editorial boards have concluded that it (Bernie's platform) is not achievable.

He was in Congress for years, and had one senator support him.

Just Baloney, dismissing Sanders claim he represents the everyday worker.

Nobody wants to work with Bernie. Nobody likes Bernie.



There are many more anti-Bernie quotes over the last 4 years. Just a short sample.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
To add to the discussion about the DNC: I find it kind of laughable that the DNC establishment is so upset that Bernie's not really a Democrat. What is it to be a "Democrat"? It's pretty much a meaningless label, as are both party labels in the US, since they have to cover such a broad spectrum. It's as if the DNC views "Democrat" as like a sports team and Bernie isn't a "true fan". They should be glad that there is a guy who is pretty much the only one to inspire Trump-like devotion (while not being a sociopath) is prepared to identify as a Democrat to run, because the other candidates, however much some of us might like them, just don't do it for people.
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The "not a democrat" is a terrible cop out. Its a way of condoning and ignoring system and personal bias against him. If Bernie ran as an independent then these same people would be way more upset when he split the democrat vote. Either way it would be Bernies fault that "their candidate" lost. Really they just want him to go away and leave all his supporters, cant have both.
 
oldfisherman said:
Not sure if this answers your question. Is Hillary part of the DNC establishment?

If so, she has been waging a 4 year long public anti-Bernie campaign.

She is on record of making many anti-Bernie quotes. Such as.

The numbers just don't add up from what Senator Sanders has been proposing- That's why all of the independent experts, all the editorial boards have concluded that it (Bernie's platform) is not achievable.

He was in Congress for years, and had one senator support him.

Just Baloney, dismissing Sanders claim he represents the everyday worker.

Nobody wants to work with Bernie. Nobody likes Bernie.



There are many more anti-Bernie quotes over the last 4 years. Just a short sample.
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Hillary was the democratic party for the last cycle, many people still loyal to her are still in power. They are all owned by insurance companies and sour grapes.
 
I really Like Pete & Amy's (and Joe's) willingness to try and build a bridge so that moderate republicans & liberals, independents & libertarian's (like me) can cross over, with a degree of compromise and willingness to help mediate ( bring together) and conciliate (over ideas and workable compromise) in our to bring about more bi partisan unity. Otherwise, the radical left and right get all the press and pleasure in think they are starting revolution. We don't need a stinking revolution, we need Civil Community Unity!
 
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