Politics Can Sanders beat Trump? (1 Viewer)

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Hoopguru said:
If Bernie was more business supportive and embraced capitalism he could run as a libertarian, but he's do neither as he's a devout socialist.
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Except in practice in his own life, where he's a die-hard capitalist scamming the political system to make his family and himself millionaires.
 
iu
 
The short answer is nobody knows, and anyone who claims they know is fooling themselves or trying to fool you.

A lot of things can and probably will happen between now and November that will affect the race.

Bernie, like Trump, has a large group of very committed supporters, and another, larger group of voters who think he's pretty questionable.

Both Bernie and Trump rely on demographics that don't typically vote in large numbers (low-information voters for Trump; young voters for Bernie).

Obviously since Trump won, Bernie can also win. It doesn't necessarily take a majority, although either Bernie or Trump could conceivably win a majority in 2020.

It seems to me that Bernie vs Trump would be an open invitation for a centrist third-party candidate to be drafted. There's a lot of ideological space vacant between the two. I doubt the 3rd party candidate would win - they never do - but if it is a semi-serious person rather than a joker, they would likely get enough to swing the election.

I'll absolutely vote for Bernie if he's the nominee, but he's not my first choice. I have doubts about his effectiveness as president, and about his age/health. Even though he's got the most progressive platform of any candidate in the race, I'd bet that any of the others (minus Yang) would be more successful at moving the ball forward legislatively.

I don't think Bernie will inspire the same sort of blind party loyalty in congresspeople than Trump has, nor do I think Bernie will try to trample the constitution and the laws in order to do what he wants. And I'm not sure he's all that interested in negotiating compromises with congress. So although the conservatives cry "Oh, Socialism! Catch me Rhett, I'm fainting!", I suspect that Bernie is actually their best case scenario for a Democratic president, if one is to be elected.

barfo
 
jonnyboy said:
I think Trump and his cronies are far from upstanding folks, but this seems like quite an exaggeration. When’s the last time you saw a politician speak out against Jews? Many politicians are Jewish, along with many members of Trump’s cabinet and many other political lobbyists. The Jewish community is probably more fairly represented in Washington than most other minority groups.
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Not that many members of Trump's cabinet are Jewish. How about backing up your assertion with some relevant links.
 
I can truly guarantee a whispering campaign among evangelicals about Sanders being Jewish.

Trump is the most unpopular president to ever run for re-election. He has a cult of about 35 percent of the population. So his only path is to make his opponent more unpopular. That's what he did four years ago with help from Russia, compliant media, and Comey. It's why Republican senators are now suddenly planning to investigate Burisma, it doesn't matter if they find anything, Trump just needs to constantly repeat Burisma like he did email. The country knows he is corrupt so he has to make people believe there is no difference between him and his opponent, they are all crooked.

So yeah, he will turn a mild democratic socialist into Stalin, Mao, whoever AND he's a Jew.
 
crandc said:
I can truly guarantee a whispering campaign among evangelicals about Sanders being Jewish.

Trump is the most unpopular president to ever run for re-election. He has a cult of about 35 percent of the population. So his only path is to make his opponent more unpopular. That's what he did four years ago with help from Russia, compliant media, and Comey. It's why Republican senators are now suddenly planning to investigate Burisma, it doesn't matter if they find anything, Trump just needs to constantly repeat Burisma like he did email. The country knows he is corrupt so he has to make people believe there is no difference between him and his opponent, they are all crooked.

So yeah, he will turn a mild democratic socialist into Stalin, Mao, whoever AND he's a Jew.
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I think your right but I dont think being Jewish makes much of a difference to the general population anymore. I think being a woman or being black is a much bigger hurdle. Also the people who might care about his heritage are single issue abortion voters and would never vote for a democrat anyway. The socialist angle will be what is used to sway people one way or another, thats what gets the most traction and what people are passionate about.
 
Someone being female or black is very obvious. You don't have to sneak a whisper about Obama's ethnicity or Warren's gender. But I do think, and maybe I'm wrong, but I am Jewish and I've heard the shit, that there would be whispers, going into churches and playing on prejudice.

Socialism is not an issue any more among youth, they've seen what capitalism does and are willing to look at democratic socialist.
 
crandc said:
Someone being female or black is very obvious. You don't have to sneak a whisper about Obama's ethnicity or Warren's gender. But I do think, and maybe I'm wrong, but I am Jewish and I've heard the shit, that there would be whispers, going into churches and playing on prejudice.

Socialism is not an issue any more among youth, they've seen what capitalism does and are willing to look at democratic socialist.
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Obviously you have a more personal experience than I do so I am just speaking out of ass on this one. I think that for the people who care about him being jewish have already made up their minds for other reasons. They are part of the lost 35% and dont really deserve much attention when campaigning. It is still an issue, I just dont think it is THE issue he faces.

Being socialist is not an issue with the youth but it is an issue with the boomers. Boomers vote, youth dont. Socialism could be the spark that gets youth out to vote, it could also be the boogyman that keeps boomers from voting for him. It could go either way but its a more hot button issue and one that is easy to paint him as "CoMmIe, VeNeZuElA steal yo health care, free stuff" guy. Personally I think Sanders inspires youth and nonvoters more than he scares old voters but I feel that is where the battle will be fought.
 
donkiez said:
Obviously you have a more personal experience than I do so I am just speaking out of ass on this one. I think that for the people who care about him being jewish have already made up their minds for other reasons. They are part of the lost 35% and dont really deserve much attention when campaigning. It is still an issue, I just dont think it is THE issue he faces.

Being socialist is not an issue with the youth but it is an issue with the boomers. Boomers vote, youth dont. Socialism could be the spark that gets youth out to vote, it could also be the boogyman that keeps boomers from voting for him. It could go either way but its a more hot button issue and one that is easy to paint him as "CoMmIe, VeNeZuElA steal yo health care, free stuff" guy. Personally I think Sanders inspires youth and nonvoters more than he scares old voters but I feel that is where the battle will be fought.
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I agree with all of that. Trying to scare people that Sanders is Jewish is difficult because he doesn't seem very stereotypically Jewish. It's like trying to paint Trump as an out-of-touch rich guy from New York. He is that, but since he cusses a lot and is an blithering idiot, people don't put that label on him.

George H.W. Bush got pilloried as an elitist for being unfamiliar with grocery store checkout bar code readers. Trump thinks you need a photo ID to buy groceries, but he's a man of the people?

barfo
 
Trump didn't even know who was playing in the stupid Super Bowl, so much for man of the people!
 
crandc said:
I can truly guarantee a whispering campaign among evangelicals about Sanders being Jewish.
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Ok? How well would a Christian fare in an Israeli election? Would there be ‘whispers’? Not saying it’s right, but many people put religious convictions first and foremost. That’s not a ‘Trump’ invention, it’s just how the world works.
As far as democratic socialism goes, people’s minds are changing. They are starting to see the correlation between a shitty quality of life and the fact that this country spends trillions on perpetual war. Republicans and establishment Democrats screaming about communism and socialism are just using scare tactics to keep their military industrial complex gravy train rolling.
 
I read somewhere that what that Politico article doesn't highlight is that this anti-Bernie discussion involved approximately 6 people, out of a total of 447. Not exactly a huge and wide-ranging conspiracy.

barfo
 
Hoopguru said:
Not a Sanders fan but if the DNC blackball's him I'll never register as democrat again. Im not now but used to be and Im sick of the two party country clubs!
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Bernie should send a message to these ass-hats that if they pull this crap again he'll run as an independent and they can kiss the White House goodbye.
 
jonnyboy said:
Ok? How well would a Christian fare in an Israeli election? Would there be ‘whispers’? Not saying it’s right, but many people put religious convictions first and foremost. That’s not a ‘Trump’ invention, it’s just how the world works.
As far as democratic socialism goes, people’s minds are changing. They are starting to see the correlation between a shitty quality of life and the fact that this country spends trillions on perpetual war. Republicans and establishment Democrats screaming about communism and socialism are just using scare tactics to keep their military industrial complex gravy train rolling.
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Israel is by definition a Jewish state. Agree or disagree, it's a fact. The United States says very specifically in the Constitution that there will be no religious test for public office.

Not comparable.

Trump has repeatedly told Jewish Americans that Israel is "your country" and Netanyahu "your prime minister". Wrong. It is his way of saying Jewish Americans are not "real" Americans. Maris would I am sure agree.
 
e_blazer said:
Bernie should send a message to these ass-hats that if they pull this crap again he'll run as an independent and they can kiss the White House goodbye.
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Exactly.
“Vote blue no matter who” is code for “let the DNC choose your candidate for you”. It’s a complete sham.
I don’t want Trump, but the DNC is trying awfully hard to get him elected. They’d rather have him than an actual progressive.
 
e_blazer said:
Bernie should send a message to these ass-hats that if they pull this crap again he'll run as an independent and they can kiss the White House goodbye.
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If he is really wanting to punish a half-dozen people for thinking he's a bad candidate, he probably is a bad candidate.

barfo
 
jonnyboy said:
Exactly.
“Vote blue no matter who” is code for “let the DNC choose your candidate for you”. It’s a complete sham.
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Uhm, no. It's saying, vote for the nominee in the general. It's not saying anything about ceding voter control over the selection of the nominee in the primaries.

And, of course, you don't have to vote for the nominee even if you hear someone say 'vote blue no matter who'. It's a suggestion, not a command.

barfo
 
crandc said:
I can truly guarantee a whispering campaign among evangelicals about Sanders being Jewish.

Trump is the most unpopular president to ever run for re-election. He has a cult of about 35 percent of the population. So his only path is to make his opponent more unpopular. That's what he did four years ago with help from Russia, compliant media, and Comey. It's why Republican senators are now suddenly planning to investigate Burisma, it doesn't matter if they find anything, Trump just needs to constantly repeat Burisma like he did email. The country knows he is corrupt so he has to make people believe there is no difference between him and his opponent, they are all crooked.

So yeah, he will turn a mild democratic socialist into Stalin, Mao, whoever AND he's a Jew.
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What, exactly, is the issue with evangelicals not liking Jewish people? I mean, I'm a pretty staunch one (evangelical, not Jew) and I don't know that I've ever read in the manual that I'm supposed to hate Jewish people. I didn't hear an outcry from many in my circles when a) the embassy was moved to Jerusalem, b) the President came out supporting Netanyahu, c) aid was cut to the Palestinians multiple times or d) when parts of the Peace Plan were announced and Israel was allowed to resettle the West Bank.

Now, I'm with you that Sanders' love for Castro and Che and failed policies of making a populace more dependent on a government is something that Bernie's opponents (taking lead from HRC in 2016) will exploit as being bad for America. The fact that you call him a "mild democratic" socialist is as laughable to me as your assertion that the media was compliant for Trump, but I don't expect that we'll see eye to eye on this one.
 
barfo said:
If he is really wanting to punish a half-dozen people for thinking he's a bad candidate, he probably is a bad candidate.

barfo
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Obviously, if there really are only a half-dozen people pushing for it, then there won't be a rules change and the whole issue is moot. But I suspect you know that already and just are in one of your pissy moods.
 
donkiez said:
one that is easy to paint him as "CoMmIe, VeNeZuElA steal yo health care, free stuff" guy.
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You're not wrong, he is a Communist-praising, steal-you-everything, free stuff guy. And not, like, in a "sorry, man, 30 years ago I thought differently" thing. In a "doubling down on the campaign trail in 2016" thing.
Bernie said:
In Cuba they have made some good advances in health care. They are sending doctors all over the world. They have made some progress in education. I think by restoring full diplomatic relations with Cuba, it will result in significant improvements to the lives of Cubans and it will help the United States and our business community invest."
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Giving HRC her due, she responded.

"I think in that same interview, he praised what he called the revolution of values in Cuba and talked about how people were working for the common good, not for themselves," she said.

"I just couldn’t disagree more. You know, if the values are that you oppress people, you disappear people, you imprison people or even kill people for expressing their opinions, for expressing freedom of speech, that is not the kind of revolution of values that I ever want to see anywhere."
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And I say this as an evangelical who is supporting missions to Cuba financially and through helping others go where the U.S. Gov't says I can't.
 
e_blazer said:
Obviously, if there really are only a half-dozen people pushing for it, then there won't be a rules change and the whole issue is moot. But I suspect you know that already and just are in one of your pissy moods.
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Pissy moods? PISSY MOODS? I DON'T HAVE PISSY MOODS!!!

barfo
 
BrianFromWA said:
You're not wrong, he is a Communist-praising, steal-you-everything, free stuff guy. And not, like, in a "sorry, man, 30 years ago I thought differently" thing. In a "doubling down on the campaign trail in 2016" thing.
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BrianFromWA said:
And I say this as an evangelical who is supporting missions to Cuba financially and through helping others go where the U.S. Gov't says I can't.
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donkiez said:
have already made up their minds for other reasons. They are part of the lost 35% and dont really deserve much attention when campaigning.
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