Can we have a calm, reasoned discussion of Frank's weaknesses?

[FOMW]

Simmons is a better defender than Hayes

Don't agree overall. Better against physical forwards? Yes. Better in terms of rotations and moving his feet? No way. Jarvis has had some big, big deflections and steals, including two in the Toronto game because he read the play before it happened.

 

[FOMW]

I like Hayes as the sub off the bench when Carter or Harris sit.

I agree. I don't know why that is being overlooked in what I've written. For the last time, this is not about whether Simmons should play or whether he should start. It's about whether he should FINISH in preference to Hayes (on most nights) and whether he should be playing more minutes than Hayes on a nightly basis. The answer to both those questions is no.

 

[Netted]

I agree. I don't know why that is being overlooked in what I've written. For the last time, this is not about whether Simmons should play or whether he should start. It's about whether he should FINISH in preference to Hayes (on most nights) and whether he should be playing more minutes than Hayes on a nightly basis. The answer to both those questions is no.

Jarvis was in at the end against Toronto. Against the Clips the starters closed out the game +9. The Laker game was a blow out and the end didn't matter. I believe Simmons was in at the end against Sacramento because he is a much better rebounder than Jarvis at the PF position, which was where Frank had him.

Prior to Toronto, the Cleveland game was a blow out and didn't matter who was in at the end. In Atlanta Jarvis was in until he got hurt. Frank went with Anderson in place of Simmons in the home Atlanta game.

I'm not a big Simmons fan, but overall last night he had a +5 impact in the game and Hayes was a +1, thanks mostly to a +2 over the last 40 seconds after Carter got hurt and he was playing with Simmons. To start the 4th quarter the Kings went +3 and Frank made wholesale substitutions and kept only Dooling and Simmons and the Nets went +3. Then he subbed Harris for Simmons and the Kings went +6 over a good chunk of the 4th. He put Simmons back in for the last minute and the Nets went +5 to tie the score! We finished +2 in OT with Simmons. Frank must've seen something he liked with Simmons in rather than on the bench.

Hey we won and it's obvious there is no SF on this roster that clearly deserves minutes above any other. Looks like it's a matter of end game match ups and circumstances and since Frank studies the tendencies of everything during the game I trust him to make that call.

And one more thing... it wasn't Simmons fault that Harris was horrible for the first 47 minutes of the game. Think he went partying with the Laker girls the night before. Would've been a much easier game if he was remotely on.

 

[Netted]

And Hayes is averaging 24 mpg to Simmons 27 mpg. So it's not like Simmons is playing way more minutes.

 

[CurlyBeast]

I'm not a big Simmons fan, but overall last night he had a +5 impact in the game and Hayes was a +1, thanks mostly to a +2 over the last 40 seconds after Carter got hurt and he was playing with Simmons. To start the 4th quarter the Kings went +3 and Frank made wholesale substitutions and kept only Dooling and Simmons and the Nets went +3. Then he subbed Harris for Simmons and the Kings went +6 over a good chunk of the 4th. He put Simmons back in for the last minute and the Nets went +5 to tie the score! We finished +2 in OT with Simmons. Frank must've seen something he liked with Simmons in rather than on the bench.

And what was Anderson's +/- (though +/- is kind of a silly stat anyway - Simmons was playing more with the starters wasn't he)? If Frank thought Simmons was playing better than Hayes, then fine, play him at the 3 to close the game. I'm more frustrated that Anderson was getting splinters in his rear when he was having such an impressive game, and would have been (imho) a much better option offensively and defensively than Simmons at the 4.

 

[CurlyBeast]

Simmons is shooting 40% from deep. Hayes is shooting 26%. In the last three games, Simmons is shooting 5 for 11 from deep; Hayes hasn't made a three pointer in three games.

Hayes is also asked to do more offensively and to be more of a primary weapon when he comes into the game. Simmons is asked to stand on the baseline and chuck whenever he's open (which is a lot), and he hasn't even been very good at that.

 

[MisterMontross]

Frank's biggest weakness is that he does not have total rule of the team.

He has to answer to Ratner/Thorn, and that limits what he can do.

 

[kobimel]

Frank's biggest weakness is that he does not have total rule of the team.

He has to answer to Ratner/Thorn, and that limits what he can do.

Isn't it like that for all coaches? Even Mike Dunleavy, who's both coach and GM of the Clippers, has to answer to Donald Sterling.

 

[Kmart06]

Simmons is better than Hayes.

I don't know about that statement.

 

[MisterMontross]

Isn't it like that for all coaches? Even Mike Dunleavy, who's both coach and GM of the Clippers, has to answer to Donald Sterling.

I'll just say that if you've been following the Nets, you should know what the situation is.

If you think it's similar to the Clipper situation, I'd have to say you haven't been paying attention.

 

[kdub]

Jarvis was in at the end against Toronto. Against the Clips the starters closed out the game +9. The Laker game was a blow out and the end didn't matter. I believe Simmons was in at the end against Sacramento because he is a much better rebounder than Jarvis at the PF position, which was where Frank had him.

Prior to Toronto, the Cleveland game was a blow out and didn't matter who was in at the end. In Atlanta Jarvis was in until he got hurt. Frank went with Anderson in place of Simmons in the home Atlanta game.

I'm not a big Simmons fan, but overall last night he had a +5 impact in the game and Hayes was a +1, thanks mostly to a +2 over the last 40 seconds after Carter got hurt and he was playing with Simmons. To start the 4th quarter the Kings went +3 and Frank made wholesale substitutions and kept only Dooling and Simmons and the Nets went +3. Then he subbed Harris for Simmons and the Kings went +6 over a good chunk of the 4th. He put Simmons back in for the last minute and the Nets went +5 to tie the score! We finished +2 in OT with Simmons. Frank must've seen something he liked with Simmons in rather than on the bench.

Hey we won and it's obvious there is no SF on this roster that clearly deserves minutes above any other. Looks like it's a matter of end game match ups and circumstances and since Frank studies the tendencies of everything during the game I trust him to make that call.

And one more thing... it wasn't Simmons fault that Harris was horrible for the first 47 minutes of the game. Think he went partying with the Laker girls the night before. Would've been a much easier game if he was remotely on.

Good post Netted. I cringed badly when Simmons missed shots and fumbled it on his way to the basket, but he didn't have a "clutch" box-out and rebound in crunch time.

Also although Ryan played really well (and had a ton of supporters there, including myself), he had 5 fouls. Yes, he's smart, but who doesn't think a young player wants to stay on the floor? If I'm Frank, I'm worried that Ryan would play more hesitant because he would be scared to draw that 6th foul. If a player plays hesitant, that's bad for the team.

 

[kobimel]

I'll just say that if you've been following the Nets, you should know what the situation is.

If you think it's similar to the Clipper situation, I'd have to say you haven't been paying attention.

I wasn't comparing the two situations. My point is that every coach has to answer to somebody, no matter how much power and influence he has. No coach has total and complete control over his team.

 

[MisterMontross]

I wasn't comparing the two situations. My point is that every coach has to answer to somebody, no matter how much power and influence he has. No coach has total and complete control over his team.

Of course you were comparing the situations.

Why else would you bring up Clippers and Dunleavy?

 

[kobimel]

Of course you were comparing the situations.

Why else would you bring up Clippers and Dunleavy?

I wasn't comparing. I was bringing up an example to back up my point.

Comparing would be saying how much freedom Frank has in comparison to Dunleavy, or how much influence Dunleavy has in comparison to Frank.

 

[MisterMontross]

I wasn't comparing. I was bringing up an example to back up my point.

Comparing would be saying how much freedom Frank has in comparison to Dunleavy, or how much influence Dunleavy has in comparison to Frank.

So you are backing up your point with an example that doesn't compare to Frank's situation with the Nets?

Excellent.

 

[GMJ]

Simmons has to be the guy out there now, for the reasons already posted: we need a better role player at SF when playing with Harris, VC, Yi, and Brook. Hayes and Dooling is a dream combination off the bench.

What I think could get Simmons out of there is if we ever decide to experiment with Devin / CDR / Vince, and then back that up with Dooling / Hayes / Simmons

That would seem pretty awesome.

 

[kobimel]

So you are backing up your point with an example that doesn't compare to Frank's situation with the Nets?

Excellent.

Huh? When did I even discuss Frank's situation in particular? I was talking about coaches' influence and control of their team in general and brought up Mike Dunleavy as an example that even coaches who are also GMs have to answer to somebody higher up.

Nice try, though.

 

[DevinNets34]

I don't know why but I don't really want to see Vince to play in SF.

Maybe I think he is not that young, and I don't want him to comepete with other energetic SFs.

 

[MisterMontross]

Huh? When did I even discuss Frank's situation in particular? I was talking about coaches' influence and control of their team in general and brought up Mike Dunleavy as an example that even coaches who are also GMs have to answer to somebody higher up.

Nice try, though.

You'rr talking in circles. You brought up Dunleavy's relationship with his bosses to compare with Frank's relationship with his bosses, and then admit there is no comparison.

I like it.

Or are you saying that the situations are comparable because Dunleavy and Frank both have bosses?

 

[kobimel]

You'rr talking in circles. You brought up Dunleavy's relationship with his bosses to compare with Frank's relationship with his bosses, and then admit there is no comparison.

I like it.

Or are you saying that the situations are comparable because Dunleavy and Frank both have bosses?

You said Frank is limited by his obligation to answer to Thorn and Ratner. I said every coach has that obligation (that's why I brought up the Dunleavy example: to show that even a guy who is both coach and GM of his team has to answer to someone higher up). No coach completely rules his team.

That means every coach is essentially "limited", making your point pretty much moot.

I never compared Dunleavy and Frank and I don't know where you got that notion.

 

[GrandKenyon6]

Jarvis should absolutely be the finisher. Simmons is just awful.

 

[MisterMontross]

You said Frank is limited by his obligation to answer to Thorn and Ratner. I said every coach has that obligation (that's why I brought up the Dunleavy example: to show that even a guy who is both coach and GM of his team has to answer to someone higher up). No coach completely rules his team.

That means every coach is essentially "limited", making your point pretty much moot.

I never compared Dunleavy and Frank and I don't know where you got that notion.

Gee, might I have gotten that notion when you mentioned Mike Dunleavy as someone in a comparable situation to Larry Frank.

And I am telling you their situations are not comparable. Frank's relationship with Ratner/Thorn is not comparable with Dunleavy's relationship with Sterling.

 

[jerseycarter15]

Yeah fire frank!!!

 

[GMJ]

I don't know why but I don't really want to see Vince to play in SF.

Maybe I think he is not that young, and I don't want him to comepete with other energetic SFs.

Personally SF is just what you call his position, not his game. Vince will still be Vince. We'll effectively play with 3 "guards," and I think it can be awesome. If you're worried about age, don't be, Vince has continually proved that last season's early egg was the result of injury, not a natural decline. If you're worried about defense, I would line up Vince against an opposing 2 guard if they're a great scorer (Dwade, Kobe, etc). While Vince won't lock them down, he'll do a better job than CDR, who showed some problems staying in front of people before he got injured.

Even while I would put Vince at SF, and CDR at SG due to their familiarity of the offense (Vince played SF until he got to NJ, and CDR played SG in college), they really are interchangible in an offense: both can hit 3's (albeit one is a lot better), and they both attack the basket, with one doing it differently (CDR) and one doing it a lot better (Carter).

 

[kobimel]

Yeah fire frank!!!

Why?

Gee, might I have gotten that notion when you mentioned Mike Dunleavy as someone in a comparable situation to Larry Frank.

And I am telling you their situations are not comparable. Frank's relationship with Ratner/Thorn is not comparable with Dunleavy's relationship with Sterling.

For the last time, I'm not comparing their situations. Fact is, no coaches have complete control over their squads. I brought Dunleavy up as an example to prove that fact, not to compare him to Frank. You're the one who keeps pushing Frank's name into this discussion while I'm not even talking about him; rather, about coaches in general.

You said Frank doesn't have complete control over his team. I said no coaches have that luxury. Thus, Frank isn't different from any other coach in that he has to answer to his GM/owner. That's all I wanted to prove in this debate, but you somehow keep assuming that I'm comparing Frank to Dunleavy.

Dunleavy is probably the most "powerful" coach in the league, since he's also the GM of his team. He only has to take orders from Sterling. I used him as an example that even the most "powerful" coaches have to take orders from someone and don't completely control their teams. I never compared Dunleavy to Frank.

 

[kievitt]

Kobimel never once compared Frank to Dunleavy specifically. He made a general statement about all coaches in the NBA, the fact that they all have someone to answer to, a fact which is 100% true. That was the extent in which he "compared" the two, just on the fact that they both are coaches in the NBA. I don't understand why you continue to bust his chops and try to argue a point he never even tried to make.

 

[kobimel]

Kobimel never once compared Frank to Dunleavy specifically. He made a general statement about all coaches in the NBA, the fact that they all have someone to answer to, a fact which is 100% true. That was the extent in which he "compared" the two, just on the fact that they both are coaches in the NBA. I don't understand why you continue to bust his chops and try to argue a point he never even tried to make.

Thanks mate, maybe now he'll finally get my point.

 

[PsychoNetsFan34]

I don't see why everyone is up in arms about Simmons or Frank or anybody on the team for that matter. Guys....we are 7-7 and have a chance to be over .500 15 games into the season. If you would have told me that back in September, as much as I would have hoped for it, I would have thought you were crazy. Most people (even some Nets players for that matter) didn't think this team would be this competitive, and listed us at the bottom of the NBA. To start going nuts about who we should change and add to a rotation after the progress this team has made is insane! The minute we put Hayes in for Simmons and this team goes 1-5, everyone on this board will become GM/Coach again and say "o man put Bobby back in...Frank what the hell are you doing get Simmons back in their!". The formula that Frank is using right now is working. How many times this season have coaches/players/fans said that Frank has out coached their team?

This team is competitive,hungry, and eager to prove them self's on a night to night basis. Their .500 and I'm enjoying every minute of it. Relax and enjoy the ride.

 

[Claud]

We're overachieving so far to say the least, and I know Frank has a lot of room for improvement but he's done a hell of a job so far.

 

[MisterMontross]

Kobimel never once compared Frank to Dunleavy specifically. He made a general statement about all coaches in the NBA, the fact that they all have someone to answer to, a fact which is 100% true. That was the extent in which he "compared" the two, just on the fact that they both are coaches in the NBA. I don't understand why you continue to bust his chops and try to argue a point he never even tried to make.

So you think kobimel's bringing up Dunleavy means that he was not comparing the two? Interesting. And ridiculous.