Can we rebuild around Lillard?

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illmatic99 said:
I just don't see this year as a doom and gloom, blow it up, we're screwed like some of you are seeing. All the moves made this past summer don't do a damn thing to our future flexibility. Even if you consider CJ's deal as poor, it certainly is not untradeable, nor is he a negative asset. The lack of synergy between he and Dame has certainly been an issue and why I'm open to trading him, but we also saw what he did in Game 7 @ DEN. We aren't getting a player like that in free agency.
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Okay. So, first of all, you're essentially writing off THIS season, which is probably wise. And you're right: we have Dame and CJ and Nurk under contract, fine. How do we get the rest of our team? Do we continue to scrounge for other team's rejects, hoping for another Nurk? Will you be happy to have a lower-tier (at best) playoff team for the rest of Dame's career? Do you really think that a team with Dame, CJ and Nurk as its 3 best players is a championship contender (even assuming Nurk is at least as good as he was)?
 
Orion Bailey said:
This is where im at.

This season absolutely sucks. But its one season and there is a bigger picture here. The long term goal hasn't changed, nor has it been marred, in my opinion. This is an instant, drive thru, world though and long term/big picture views escape many.
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What if I told you that Dame and CJ have, in all likelihood, peaked? And that Nurk was not going to return to his pre-injury form?
 
I think I'm extra-pissed by the Mavs passing us up so quickly because they went for it and got one of the top players of the coming decade. And it wasn't like he was some big hidden secret (like Antetokounmpo). But even I didn't think he'd be better than Dame in his second season.
 
And I would add that Dame/CJ at their peak can win a title with the right group around them. But they are difficult to put the right group around. And this would be my speculation.
 
Orion Bailey said:
This is where im at.

This season absolutely sucks. But its one season and there is a bigger picture here. The long term goal hasn't changed, nor has it been marred, in my opinion. This is an instant, drive thru, world though and long term/big picture views escape many.

Could this team be better if better moves had been made in years past? Of course. I'm pretty sure every team in the league can say the same. Hindsight is 20/20, yet some act as though its the only vision GMs should use... before its attainable.
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My problem is Neil went all in with highest payroll in NBA by a mile with only one decent playoff run... everyone talks about the contracts of 2016, yet Neil kills all future flexibility by giving CJ 30-35 mil extension. Committing 70% of salary cap to 2 players who do similar things, when both players have similar defensive deficiencies, and both are entering their 30’s.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Okay. So, first of all, you're essentially writing off THIS season, which is probably wise. And you're right: we have Dame and CJ and Nurk under contract, fine. How do we get the rest of our team? Do we continue to scrounge for other team's rejects, hoping for another Nurk? Will you be happy to have a lower-tier (at best) playoff team for the rest of Dame's career? Do you really think that a team with Dame, CJ and Nurk as its 3 best players is a championship contender (even assuming Nurk is at least as good as he was)?
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Think last night broke my spirit about this season. Watching Melo get chants while we had our most embarrassing loss pretty much ended me.

But your question was answered by one of my first posts today. We need to extract a wing out of the HW/Baze deals that will last past this season and someone who figures to slot in to that 3/4 spot for the long term (Roco/Porter/etc). Letting them walk is not exactly a failure either if we can secure a lotto pick to trade with our 10-15 mil of capspace for the same sort of player. What I definitely do NOT want is someone like Love who will kill all our flexibility without addressing any of our core needs. Trading Ant/Zach also not options for me unless we're getting a definite All Star in the return.

Provided Nurk returns healthy after year 2 of his rehab, a core of Dame-CJ-player to be named- Zach-Nurk will win you 50 games and a shot to do some damage in the playoffs. And if a CJ trade were to arise for the likes of Tobias or Ben Simmons, I'd jump all over it. Simons should slot in fairly well into the SG spot full time after next year. Granted, the moves Neil makes this summer onward will have to be absolutely perfect, this year alone haven't changed my opinions on the long term futures of this team.

Look at what happened to Lebron last year with all his injuries and to his teammates. Certainly didn't change his prospects at all.
 
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illmatic99 said:
Provided Nurk returns healthy after year 2 of his rehab, a core of Dame-CJ-player to be named- Zach-Nurk will win you 50 games and a shot to do some damage in the playoffs. And if a CJ trade were to arise for the likes of Tobias or Ben Simmons, I'd jump all over it.
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Hmm. First, there's VERY little chance CJ would get us Simmons. I think it would take Dame for that (unless some serious explosion happens in Philly). And I see Tobias as a taller CJ without the huge arsenal - it's a lateral move at best.

illmatic99 said:
Simons should slot in fairly well into the SG spot full time after next year. Granted, the moves Neil makes this summer onward will have to be absolutely perfect, this year alone haven't changed my opinions on the long term futures of this team.
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I know Simons is young, but he is simply a major negative on the court at the moment. (Look it up.) He seems to lack basic BBIQ. Plus he's scrawny and a completely inept defender. People think he'll just replace CJ, but that's seriously undervaluing CJ AND overvaluing him.

illmatic99 said:
Look at what happened to Lebron last year with all his injuries and to his teammates. Certainly didn't change his prospects at all.
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Okay, c'mon dude. Anthony Davis isn't walking through that door. That's a crazy comparison.
 
illmatic99 said:
Think last night broke my spirit about this season. Watching Melo get chants while we had our most embarrassing loss pretty much ended me.

But your question was answered by one of my first posts today. We need to extract a wing out of the HW/Baze deals that will last past this season and someone who figures to slot in to that 3/4 spot for the long term (Roco/Porter/etc). Letting them walk is not exactly a failure either if we can secure a lotto pick to trade with our 10-15 mil of capspace for the same sort of player. What I definitely do NOT want is someone like Love who will kill all our flexibility without addressing any of our core needs. Trading Ant/Zach also not options for me unless we're getting a definite All Star in the return.

Provided Nurk returns healthy after year 2 of his rehab, a core of Dame-CJ-player to be named- Zach-Nurk will win you 50 games and a shot to do some damage in the playoffs. And if a CJ trade were to arise for the likes of Tobias or Ben Simmons, I'd jump all over it. Simons should slot in fairly well into the SG spot full time after next year. Granted, the moves Neil makes this summer onward will have to be absolutely perfect, this year alone haven't changed my opinions on the long term futures of this team.

Look at what happened to Lebron last year with all his injuries and to his teammates. Certainly didn't change his prospects at all.
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Its been fairly obvious the Blazers arent good for a month or so. The hood injury was the final crack in a ship that was already leaking.
 
Hobbesarable said:
Doing this rebuild with Olshey and Stotts?

Not excited about that proposition.
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Im believing we will be pleasantly surprised once we make a move or two and get healthy. Hey, we may not when the enchilada but we will back in the hunt for next year.
 
Neil O. Shyster said:
My problem is Neil went all in with highest payroll in NBA by a mile with only one decent playoff run... everyone talks about the contracts of 2016, yet Neil kills all future flexibility by giving CJ 30-35 mil extension. Committing 70% of salary cap to 2 players who do similar things, when both players have similar defensive deficiencies, and both are entering their 30’s.
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This is pure speculation. Everyone railed on NO for 2016 and I think most will admit it was not good, but I think most people now see it wasn't as bad as it was once thought to be, based on the moves NO has been able to make since then.

Sometimes you take a swing and miss. No one is 100%. We took a swing and missed on Crabbe. We took a swing and missed on Turner and Leonard. But we also took a swing on Aminu, Nurk, Whiteside and Hood and those have all been, at the very least, base hits with Nurk being a home run.

I agree, CJ is overpaid, but that doesn't mean it has killed all flexibility. That's pure conjecture and simply your opinion, nothing more.

One must see the good with the bad as one sees the bad with the good, or one's view is only half the picture, which basically makes one blind.
 
Orion Bailey said:
When we gave Dame the supermax. I was against it. I was against him taking it. If we want to win, you cant have 2-3 guys eating up 70-80% of the cap. I got a ton of heat around here for saying Dame should ask to take less if he wants to win....
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Huh? Thats not factually correct. At all.

Kawhi+PG, LeBron+AD, Russ+Harden, Murray+Jokic, Embiid+Simmons, Giannis+Middleton...
 
BonesJones said:
Huh? Thats not factually correct. At all.

Kawhi+PG, LeBron+AD, Russ+Harden, Murray+Jokic, Embiid+Simmons, Giannis+Middleton...
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Not one combo you mentioned has won a thing. Get back to me when they do. :)
 
BonesJones said:
Huh? Thats not factually correct. At all.

Kawhi+PG, LeBron+AD, Russ+Harden, Murray+Jokic, Embiid+Simmons, Giannis+Middleton...
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Wait a minute. WTF? Did I enter a time warp? Its not even 8AM and you are up posting? Or wait. You are still up from last night, right? LOL. You owe me an NBA2k btw!
 
BonesJones said:
They're the six most winningest duos.

But you can look at Steph and Klay. Or LeBron and Kyrie. Kawhi and Lowry...
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....Kobe & Shaq....DWade & Shaq....KG & Pierce...Kobe & Pau....Lebron & DWade....Kawhi & Duncan

the thing is, while Dame may merit being included in that list of players (barely and maybe not), CJ is about 3 tiers below any of those players in talent and 4 tiers below in impact, but will be paid like he belongs.

cartoon-male-runner-on-a-treadmillfitness-and-jogging-concept-bagira22.jpg
 
wizenheimer said:
....Kobe & Shaq....DWade & Shaq....KG & Pierce...Kobe & Pau....Lebron & DWade....Kawhi & Duncan

the thing is, while Dame may merit being included in that list of players (barely and maybe not), CJ is about 3 tiers below any of those players in talent and 4 tiers below in impact, but will be paid like he belongs.

cartoon-male-runner-on-a-treadmillfitness-and-jogging-concept-bagira22.jpg
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Meh, he's in the same tier as Simmons, Middleton, Lowry, and Murray.
 
wizenheimer said:
Simmons & Middleton are better....Lowry used to be better, and probably still is....Murray will be
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Look up the definition of "tier".

And I wasnt talking about "will be".

And thats not even what my point was, for fucks sake. The point was you can pay 2 players 70%-80% of the cap and contend...
 
BonesJones said:
Look up the definition of "tier".

And thats not even what my point was, for fucks sake. The point was you can pay 2 players 70%-80% of the cap and contend...
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I know exactly what your point was for chrissakes, it wasn't quantum level and above my pay grade

but my point was that CJ is not anywhere close to as good as Dame, or any of those other 12-13 players we were talking about, like Lebron or Kobe or Kawhi or PG13. So yeah, if Dame and a player of that caliber is taking 70-80% of the cap, you can contend. When it's Dame and CJ taking 70-80% of the cap...there's no contending in sight.
 
BonesJones said:
No? And yeah thanks for reminding me
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All good. Doubt id play it anyhow. I say give it to someone who will play it more. Might be interested in those sim matchups that cant be had anywhere else. Like the 2017-18 warriors vs 96-97 bulls. That would be awesome. lol

BonesJones said:
They're the six most winningest duos.

But you can look at Steph and Klay. Or LeBron and Kyrie. Kawhi and Lowry...
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okay fair enough on the last two. I do not think steph and klay made 70% of gsw salary with kd on a max though? Though half of their success was due to steph not making much?

I think the point @wizenheimer is trying to make though is this duo isn't worth paying that much to because cj isnt near as good of a player as most of the others you listed.
Ill conceed and say you can win paying that much to a duo, but it better be two all star potential mvp players in my opinion. I think the max per player is way too high personally and its ruining the game.
Why players want to make 35 instead of 20 mill a year instead of winning boggles my mind. if players cant live a great life off 10 mill a year after taxes, they have serious issues.

But i get it. Its what it is. I just wish more would go the other way. Take a couple good solid contracts. Make 100 mill over a career instead of 300 mill. Allow for thier team to seriously contend and pay for more talent.

okay done ranting. Lol
 
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