OT CARS

[Voodoo]

Have you spent a few days driving a Tesla? I love having one spot (screen) with all the controls and no buttons cluttering up the interior. Still, everything you most need to drive(including wipers) is on the steering wheel. The lack of clutter makes all other cars feel like an annoying airplane cockpit.

Maybe some people just want a bunch of buttons all over the place, I just suggest trying both before you decide.

Admittedly I have not, but I have driven in enough cars with varying different interfaces and controls and I can say with a high level of confidence that I would very much hate the Tesla layout. From and ergonomics standpoint that is terrible, any time you need go through a number of menu options in the screen just to change a setting is aggravating. Some people may prefer the 'clean' look of a Tesla, but to me it looks boring and stale, like an operating room. I want my experience in the car to be easy to use and intuitive, and forcing me to go to the menu to change the speed of my windshield wipers is bad design IMO.

 

[Shaboid]

Taliban officials praise Afghanistan's first sports car. It has an engine from a 2000 Toyota Corolla.

 

[-Ace-]

Been looking at a new Kia Niro for the future. I drive a 2017 Hyundai Elantra I bought in October 2018, and I have had zero issues come up with it. Between work and now a family, it might be nice to have the extra space and get into the hybrid car category. Last week I started browsing online, and the next day while driving, I ended up both behind and next to two Niros. Maybe a sign?

 

[HailBlazers]

You sir have truly good tastes in cars. There is a certain player who attended OSU and joined us this season who has an RS6. Beautiful vehicle. Finally available in the US again.

My buddy has an RS7 sportback with a bangin system. So sick.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Admittedly I have not, but I have driven in enough cars with varying different interfaces and controls and I can say with a high level of confidence that I would very much hate the Tesla layout. From and ergonomics standpoint that is terrible, any time you need go through a number of menu options in the screen just to change a setting is aggravating. Some people may prefer the 'clean' look of a Tesla, but to me it looks boring and stale, like an operating room. I want my experience in the car to be easy to use and intuitive, and forcing me to go to the menu to change the speed of my windshield wipers is bad design IMO.

That's two posts you've claimed Tesla wipers are controlled by menus on a screen. It's not, it's a button on the steering wheel stalk.

I've drive many cars as well, worked on cars, bought, fixed, flipped and sold them. I'm not the only one, Jay Leno is a legit car guy and loves Teslas.

New Acura MDX has a trackpad you have to swipe to adjust basic functions. My BMW X5 has a giant dial that you have to move all over to drill down into multiple confusing menus. It doesn't even have a dipstick for oil. The interface won't connect to anything online anymore. It only has 90k miles F15 prior generation body but is unsupported.

Wish I had bought a Tesla many years ago instead of that BMW. Tesla at least updates and supports their products. Ultimate driving machine my ass.

I could complain about Tesla endlessly. The FSD name is ridiculous. Autopilot phantom braking. Terrible customer service. Forcing the stupid yoke steering. Misaligned panels. Crappy paint. Smelly cabin filters.

All that crap and their physical manufacturing is probably 5+ years ahead of all competitions, with software 10 years ahead, and charging network 15 years ahead.

IMO the Model 3/Y screen, with the Tesla UI is one of the best, maybe even absolute best feature of these compelling vehicles.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Been looking at a new Kia Niro for the future. I drive a 2017 Hyundai Elantra I bought in October 2018, and I have had zero issues come up with it. Between work and now a family, it might be nice to have the extra space and get into the hybrid car category. Last week I started browsing online, and the next day while driving, I ended up both behind and next to two Niros. Maybe a sign?

I could never buy a Kia/Hyundai. Just to many horrible engines and poor quality I've seen. If your experience is better, good luck. If I was going for a more value brand can't go wrong with Honda or Toyota. Kia/Hyundai are much more expensive when you consider true cost of ownership. Maybe I'd also look at Subaru if AWD is important.

 

[THE HCP]

My buddy has an RS7 sportback with a bangin system. So sick.

I kept my factory stereo in surprisingly. First car I’ve owned that I didn’t go aftermarket. I love it.

 

[Voodoo]

That's two posts you've claimed Tesla wipers are controlled by menus on a screen. It's not, it's a button on the steering wheel stalk.

I've drive many cars as well, worked on cars, bought, fixed, flipped and sold them. I'm not the only one, Jay Leno is a legit car guy and loves Teslas.

New Acura MDX has a trackpad you have to swipe to adjust basic functions. My BMW X5 has a giant dial that you have to move all over to drill down into multiple confusing menus. It doesn't even have a dipstick for oil. The interface won't connect to anything online anymore. It only has 90k miles F15 prior generation body but is unsupported.

Wish I had bought a Tesla many years ago instead of that BMW. Tesla at least updates and supports their products. Ultimate driving machine my ass.

I could complain about Tesla endlessly. The FSD name is ridiculous. Autopilot phantom braking. Terrible customer service. Forcing the stupid yoke steering. Misaligned panels. Crappy paint. Smelly cabin filters.

All that crap and their physical manufacturing is probably 5+ years ahead of all competitions, with software 10 years ahead, and charging network 15 years ahead.

IMO the Model 3/Y screen, with the Tesla UI is one of the best, maybe even absolute best feature of these compelling vehicles.

I am referencing what I have researched online. Everything I can find references having to go into the screen of the Tesla to adjust the wipers. I don't have a Tesla, so I am just referencing what I have read and or watched, are you saying this is no longer the case and they now have a window wiper control for the windshield wipers on a stick on the stock? If so that is a great change, as it is a much better human interface IMO for controlling them.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Didnt watch the video, but theres probably additional settings and auto settings you can find on the screen. But if you just want to turn them on, its the button on the end of the stock as pictured;

 

[Voodoo]

That's two posts you've claimed Tesla wipers are controlled by menus on a screen. It's not, it's a button on the steering wheel stalk.

I've drive many cars as well, worked on cars, bought, fixed, flipped and sold them. I'm not the only one, Jay Leno is a legit car guy and loves Teslas.

New Acura MDX has a trackpad you have to swipe to adjust basic functions. My BMW X5 has a giant dial that you have to move all over to drill down into multiple confusing menus. It doesn't even have a dipstick for oil. The interface won't connect to anything online anymore. It only has 90k miles F15 prior generation body but is unsupported.

Wish I had bought a Tesla many years ago instead of that BMW. Tesla at least updates and supports their products. Ultimate driving machine my ass.

I could complain about Tesla endlessly. The FSD name is ridiculous. Autopilot phantom braking. Terrible customer service. Forcing the stupid yoke steering. Misaligned panels. Crappy paint. Smelly cabin filters.

All that crap and their physical manufacturing is probably 5+ years ahead of all competitions, with software 10 years ahead, and charging network 15 years ahead.

IMO the Model 3/Y screen, with the Tesla UI is one of the best, maybe even absolute best feature of these compelling vehicles.

I don't have anything against Tesla per se, they do a lot of things better than their competition. I agree that BMW and Acura also have terrible HMI's, you're referencing some of the automakers who aren't on the forefront of good design for HMIs. If you look at ones that have a good HMI you'll see that Tesla is not the worst, but they are certainly not the best. The fact that you have to do something in the center console that should be easily controlled

Here's my take -

Good:

• Batteries and charging are class leading
• Design leaders for EVs
• OTA updates for their software with regular updates
• New purchasing model with no middle man (dealerships)

Bad:

• HMI interface for a lot of controls such as the HVAC system
• Questionable interior designs that are overly simple and minimalistic
• The door handles, a great example of taking something not broken and trying to improve on it - but failing miserably in execution and making something simple worse and more complicated
• Price
• Misleading advertising on many things including range, self driving, etc
• Manufacturing - you reference this as a strong point, but also note their body panels being misaligned. On a 'luxury' car this is flat out unacceptable, you can get a Corolla for $25k without these issues.

Tesla is a market disrupter, they've done a lot of good for the industry and I appreciate what Tesla/Musk has done to the industry. Overall I think they've been a positive force that has made some significant changes that are pushing things forward in a good way. But they have made some very bad decisions IMO on design, and their marketing (or lack there of thanks Musk) is flat out lying (FSD) or at best misleading. All this said, Tesla is on my list of cars to consider purchasing as we're considering buying an EV, especially prior to the March changes to the tax plan from the IRA.

 

[Voodoo]

Didnt watch the video, but theres probably additional settings and auto settings you can find on the screen. But if you just want to turn them on, its the button on the end of the stock as pictured;

The guy in the video states that if you want to change the intermittent wiper speed you need to go into the center console. This is what I was meaning in my OP regarding the Tesla wipers, which I may not have said very well. Everything I have read about them has confirmed that this is how it works. Can you confirm that this is accurate? IMO that is absolutely a terrible terrible design for a whole host of reasons if that is the case.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Been looking at a new Kia Niro for the future. I drive a 2017 Hyundai Elantra I bought in October 2018, and I have had zero issues come up with it. Between work and now a family, it might be nice to have the extra space and get into the hybrid car category. Last week I started browsing online, and the next day while driving, I ended up both behind and next to two Niros. Maybe a sign?

My wife and I bought a key and Nero a few months ago, it's what she wanted. It's been a fantastic car. I really enjoy it. Gets a solid 50 mi of the gallon in town and 40 on the highway. I've gotten it up to 90 a few times on the freeway and it holds straight and true. What was really surprising is if you put it in the sport mode it uses the electric and the gas engine both at the same time and it flies.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I could never buy a Kia/Hyundai. Just to many horrible engines and poor quality I've seen. If your experience is better, good luck. If I was going for a more value brand can't go wrong with Honda or Toyota. Kia/Hyundai are much more expensive when you consider true cost of ownership. Maybe I'd also look at Subaru if AWD is important.

Not true at all. Kia and Hyundai have the $100,000 mi warranty, it's not a jack. It's a solid warranty. The wife had a Kia soul. Only problem that we had with it was we went to a gas station in Tigard, one on the freeway the car started sputtering died bad gas gas station owner was an ass Kia warranty covered it all. Not a problem

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I am referencing what I have researched online. Everything I can find references having to go into the screen of the Tesla to adjust the wipers. I don't have a Tesla, so I am just referencing what I have read and or watched, are you saying this is no longer the case and they now have a window wiper control for the windshield wipers on a stick on the stock? If so that is a great change, as it is a much better human interface IMO for controlling them.

I mean I totally get it. You like your Tesla and you see a lot of value in it. You're a very happy customer. That's awesome! You're also very happy customer with your wife. That doesn't mean that you think everybody should be with your wife. But what you have works for you. Doesn't mean it's going to work for others. If you follow the history of Honda and Toyota they put a product out there. It had problems and it continually got better. Kia followed that same path 10 years ago. Kia was a piece of s*** totally agree. They had some problems.

 

[Voodoo]

Another thing about the Tesla design trend that is frustrating to me, is that most of the good aspects of Tesla are not being copied within the auto industry. Ironically though almost all of the worst aspects of Tesla designs are being copied.

Example 1 - Lexus NX door handles in the new generation of cars is dumb and overly complicated, same with the Mustang Mach E. Ugh, just put on working mechanical door handles please!

Example 2 - The new generation Audi interiors are beautiful, but they have gone backwards in functional design this generation. Historically Audi always valued usability with design, and married them into a beautiful AND functional system. The newest generations have followed Tesla and have chosen to prioritize the design over the usability, case in point they have made the HVAC controls all controlled by a screen which is a far worse experience than just switches or knobs for controlling them.

 

[Voodoo]

I mean I totally get it. You like your Tesla and you see a lot of value in it. You're a very happy customer. That's awesome! You're also very happy customer with your wife. That doesn't mean that you think everybody should be with your wife. But what you have works for you. Doesn't mean it's going to work for others. If you follow the history of Honda and Toyota they put a product out there. It had problems and it continually got better. Kia followed that same path 10 years ago. Kia was a piece of s*** totally agree. They had some problems.

I don't own a Tesla? And I have nothing against Tesla, I am just pointing out the areas in which their design choices are questionable.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I don't own a Tesla? And I have nothing against Tesla, I am just pointing out the areas in which their design choices are questionable.

I meant that for Wesley Matthews. I'm sitting here poolside in the bright sun can barely see my screen, and I've had a few drinks.

 

[THE HCP]

I don’t own a gun, but I’d get one if somebody tries to take away my V8 FAMS!

 

[Voodoo]

I don’t own a gun, but I’d get one if somebody tries to take away my V8 FAMS!

What do you drive? An M5?

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I don’t own a gun, but I’d get one if somebody tries to take away my V8 FAMS!

I liked one of Jay Leno's comments on EV's long term impact to gas vehicle enthusiasts. He said the shift from gas vehicles to EV's will mirror some of the shift from horsedrawn carriage to cars, and how that changed peoples love for horses.

Back in the 1800's horses shit was all over the street. Some people liked horses, but they were more thought of as having utilitarian use for transportation. Then cars took over, and the streets cleared of shit, and horses went off to stables to be ridden, race, or hang out in the pasture. Horses actually became a passionate pastime that people enjoyed much more.

If EV's take over 90% of the auto market, we might have a much cleaner planet (although yes EV/electricity lifecycle has additional challenges). But lets say we get to where the vast majority of everyday transportation is EV instead of gas, just as the ICE replaced the horsedrawn carriage.

We might get to have a niche of passionate gas vehicle owners that love using their vehicles, working on them, racing them, etc just as we do with horses today. EV's could make gas vehicles a more enjoyable pastime.

So HCP, I'd think you should be able to cling to your V8 for a very very long time!

 

[SharpesTriumph]

The guy in the video states that if you want to change the intermittent wiper speed you need to go into the center console. This is what I was meaning in my OP regarding the Tesla wipers, which I may not have said very well. Everything I have read about them has confirmed that this is how it works. Can you confirm that this is accurate? IMO that is absolutely a terrible terrible design for a whole host of reasons if that is the case.

Honestly I have the wipers set to auto and it does a great job, I never change that. When I do need to clear the windshield I hit the button or if I need to spray I hold it. It was all very intuitive. I've spent more time typing about it here than I ever thought about it in the vehicle. If I think of it next time I'm in the rain maybe I'll try to play with the settings.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Good reply, I'll reply in bold to a few points below;

I don't have anything against Tesla per se, they do a lot of things better than their competition. I agree that BMW and Acura also have terrible HMI's, you're referencing some of the automakers who aren't on the forefront of good design for HMIs. Do you have examples of good designs? If you look at ones that have a good HMI you'll see that Tesla is not the worst, but they are certainly not the best. The fact that you have to do something in the center console that should be easily controlled

Here's my take -

Good:

• Batteries and charging are class leading Performance is amazing too
• Design leaders for EVs
• OTA updates for their software with regular updates Their updates and UI is way beyond other automakers IMO. Would love to see real competition here and vehicles supported beyond the 3 years legacy automakers try to push you to a newer model.
• New purchasing model with no middle man (dealerships) Personally love this, they get some recent backlash with price cuts as other automakers/dealers hide these in discounts or market adjustments. But I just loved not having to deal with stupid dealers. I'm a great negotiatior but its just a chore to have to deal with that, as well as their slow paperwork.

Bad:

• HMI interface for a lot of controls such as the HVAC system
• Questionable interior designs that are overly simple and minimalistic - Personally I'm a minimalist, I hate clutter
• The door handles, a great example of taking something not broken and trying to improve on it - but failing miserably in execution and making something simple worse and more complicated Keep in mind Aero is super important for EVs, so the flush handles have a performance/range advantage as well
• Price Model 3 RWD is cheaper than the average new US car
• Misleading advertising on many things including range, self driving, etc Totally Agree
• Manufacturing - you reference this as a strong point, but also note their body panels being misaligned. On a 'luxury' car this is flat out unacceptable, you can get a Corolla for $25k without these issues. Model 3/Y are not luxury IMO; maybe they slightly were; but now they compete with Toyota/Honda. Model X/S are luxury and have better finish. By manufuacturing I meant more things Tesla is doing such as casting that no other auto maker is doing; replacing 100's of parts with a single piece of metal that is perfectly the same. This gives them much lower costs and more consistent quality. They'll be able to undercut legacy auto makers EV prices and still have much larger profits.

Tesla is a market disrupter, they've done a lot of good for the industry and I appreciate what Tesla/Musk has done to the industry. Overall I think they've been a positive force that has made some significant changes that are pushing things forward in a good way. But they have made some very bad decisions IMO on design, and their marketing (or lack there of thanks Musk) is flat out lying (FSD) or at best misleading. All this said, Tesla is on my list of cars to consider purchasing as we're considering buying an EV, especially prior to the March changes to the tax plan from the IRA.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Not true at all. Kia and Hyundai have the $100,000 mi warranty, it's not a jack. It's a solid warranty. The wife had a Kia soul. Only problem that we had with it was we went to a gas station in Tigard, one on the freeway the car started sputtering died bad gas gas station owner was an ass Kia warranty covered it all. Not a problem

Thats a fair point. Some of my opinion might just be earlier vehicles I've seen of theirs. Maybe its better now. I don't think I'll ever be able to move past that opinion though.

From a purely financial side the steep depreciation of Kia/Hyundai vs Toyota/Honda makes them much more expensive then I think many buyers believe. Now if you are going to keep the vehicle 10 years/200k miles that depreciation doesn't matter much. But if you want to change vehicles; Kia/Hyundai don't provide the low total cost of ownership many buyers expect when seeing a lower MSRP.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I mean I totally get it. You like your Tesla and you see a lot of value in it. You're a very happy customer. That's awesome! You're also very happy customer with your wife. That doesn't mean that you think everybody should be with your wife. But what you have works for you. Doesn't mean it's going to work for others. If you follow the history of Honda and Toyota they put a product out there. It had problems and it continually got better. Kia followed that same path 10 years ago. Kia was a piece of s*** totally agree. They had some problems.

1980s Toyota to current Tesla is a good analogy IMO.

I wasn't a Tesla fan until one of my friends had one, I spent some time on it, tried one, and ended up just totally enjoying it much more than I expected.

Now I find myself unable to enjoy other cars. Think of when the Iphone or Android devices came out; then having to go back to use an old T9 texting Nokia phone. Thats how I feel with all other cars. Would love to see Rivian or some companies get their act together and provide a legit competition to Tesla, but right now they're just way ahead IMO.

I'd suggest each person form their own opinion. But to fully form it you need time behind the wheel of a Tesla.

 

[Voodoo]

Good reply, I'll reply in bold to a few points below;

Appreciate the insight and replies. Tesla is willing to do things that other 'legacy' car companies aren't willing to do, they are a disruptor and as a result they are able to leap frog other companies because of said risk taking. I think this is finally starting to catch up to them which is why they've had to cut the costs of their cars to put them in a position in which they are closer to where they truly are in the market. As for the door handles, I disagree, I have heard the argument it is for aero, but if you look at the design philosophy of Tesla it's clearly a design choice that fits with the rest of their rationale of trying to think outside of the box and be different. You can see it with a lot of what they do, and some of it is for the better, but things such as the door handles, no gauge cluster for the driver, etc, are IMO taking this design philosophy to such a degree in which it makes it worse.

What they did well with their design though is making everything work and be integrated very very well, much like Apple they are coherent and everything works generally seamlessly. The phone app ties in with the car very well, and the ecosystem for the entire experience of owning the car is very good. I forgot to mention this in my last post, but this is one of the best things Tesla has done in which it is not given nearly enough credit. You can see with other car companies they have different organizations working on certain parts of the car and they aren't all necessarily as cohesive or well tied together and the user experience demonstrates that.

As for the performance you note, I have heard mixed reviews. I have heard the car is, yes very fast, but it's also extremely loud and has tons of road noise, and the handling is mediocre. Overall the experience with Tesla is very mixed, and it really depends on what you value with your car. I think much like you mentioned earlier, if you want an iPhone like experience then Tesla is for you. It is very well integrated, is fundamentally different than what came before it, and does some things exceptionally well and others mediocre compared to the competition. I dunno, I am really conflicted about it and who knows I may buy one and become a fan too much like I did when I finally bought an iPhone, but I haven't made the plunge yet haha.

 

[andalusian]

I could never buy a Kia/Hyundai. Just to many horrible engines and poor quality I've seen. If your experience is better, good luck. If I was going for a more value brand can't go wrong with Honda or Toyota. Kia/Hyundai are much more expensive when you consider true cost of ownership. Maybe I'd also look at Subaru if AWD is important.

Wife went with EVs since 2015, once her last Subaru blew it's engine. First one was a VW e-Golf, fun to drive, very shoddy build quality. It was replaced in 2018 with a Kia Soul EV - most boring car ever, but nothing went wrong on it, absolutely perfect reliability.

She has since got a 2020 Kona Electric. A lot more fun to drive than the Kia, about as much fun as the VW was (much more power, handling is not as good but very entertaining). Like all EVs, they require a once a year service - in the last one they said they heard something with the steering column and decided to replace it just to be sure there is no issue (we never heard anything ourselves and the car never failed).

Unlike the previous 2 EVs, I think this one is a keeper and she will likely buy it at the end of the lease. My in-laws have a TM3, very good car but we have a tight turning area at the bottom of our long driveway and the wife prefers the shorter wheelbase of the Kona. Also, it is much cheaper than the TM3, I think she got it in 2021 as the last one of the 2020s they had and after all the rebates paid about as much a Civic SI - and it's a much more interesting car to drive, imho.

I can't really tell you anything about the overall reliability of the new Hyundai / Kias, but our experience has been excellent and I suspect the huge poaching they have done from the other companies in the last 10 years is starting to show (I have many friends at the local automotive design studios that are mostly located in SoCal and that's been the talk about them in the last decade - they invested a lot in improving their design, engineering and production).

But, car reputation takes a long time to build, I remember being stuck on the far side of Cyprus with a broken Hyundai Excel that had a broken clutch cable, at least it was kind enough to do it where we could find a pay-phone (before mobile phones) instead of the Trodos (mountain range in the middle of the island) we traversed before where we were 3-4 hours away by car from anyone else.

I would, btw, agree with can't go wrong with Toyota, but I have seen enough Hondas with broken gearboxes to know that's less of a safe bet... FWIW

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I don’t own a gun, but I’d get one if somebody tries to take away my V8 FAMS![/QUOTECar companies are coming out with hybrid v-8s.

 

[Voodoo]

Car companies are coming out with hybrid v-8s

The dog keeps getting more and more hammered as the night goes on.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

The dog keeps getting more and more hammered as the night goes on.

No I was just reading about the New Corvette that's coming out next year. V8 hybrid supposed to have a 0 to 60 in like 2.2

 

[THE HCP]

What do you drive? An M5?