Politics Civil War part 2! Which side will you fight for?

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Natebishop3 said:
And you clearly weren't paying attention to my question at the beginning.

What has he done to earn this unyielding trust and loyalty? Marazul answered the question but it seemed to sail right over you.
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Who says I give him unyielding trust and loyalty? I don't have an answer to that question. But you seem to ignore that I think he won the election and gets a four year term because it's the law. Sure, I resist what looks like a moronic march toward his removal since day 1.

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Denny Crane said:
I think he won the election and gets a four year term because it's the law.
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Cool. That's not what I'm talking about.

And he isn't guaranteed 4 years if he breaks the law, so I guess we'll see what the investigation finds :dunno:
 
Natebishop3 said:
Cool. That's not what I'm talking about.

And he isn't guaranteed 4 years if he breaks the law, so I guess we'll see what the investigation finds :dunno:
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Sure. I'm game for investigating ALL the politicians.

But I haven't seen any actual law broken. They're investigating assertions without basis.
 
Denny Crane said:
Sure. I'm game for investigating ALL the politicians.

But I haven't seen any actual law broken. They're investigating assertions without basis.
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You are privy to everything the FBI knows? Just because you haven't seen it (through your Trump-colored glasses) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Plus, you've already admitted that Flynn broke the law.

barfo
 
Denny Crane said:
Sure. I'm game for investigating ALL the politicians.

But I haven't seen any actual law broken. They're investigating assertions without basis.
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Mostly I'm just trying to understand what he has done to earn some of this staunch loyalty from his supporters. I just don't get it.... I have yet to see a single politician that would get that kind of loyalty from me.
 
Grand juries aren't impaneled for charges that lack any basis--it's usually a sign that there's something worth seriously investigating. And it wasn't Democrats who convened the grand jury, it was Mueller, who's respected on both sides of the aisle.
 
I just find it funny that they had to create new buzz words to defend this guy....

Fake news.

Deep state.

I have never seen a politician play the victim in this way before.
 
barfo said:
You are privy to everything the FBI knows? Just because you haven't seen it (through your Trump-colored glasses) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Plus, you've already admitted that Flynn broke the law.

barfo
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Good thing there's not been leaks about everything but actual crimes, right?

LOL

All we do know is that Flynn is in trouble, and it's because of his involvement with Turkey, not Russia.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I just find it funny that they had to create new buzz words to defend this guy....

Fake news.

Deep state.

I have never seen a politician play the victim in this way before.
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Bill Moyers is no right winger.

 
Minstrel said:
Grand juries aren't impaneled for charges that lack any basis--it's usually a sign that there's something worth seriously investigating. And it wasn't Democrats who convened the grand jury, it was Mueller, who's respected on both sides of the aisle.
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Your knowledge of the law is astounding.

A grand jury is required for him to be able to issue subpoenas. Nothing else to read into it.

Nobody on the grand jury or the investigating team is allowed, by law, to talk about what's going on. Those who testify can say whatever they want. All we know is subpoenas issued about Flynn's records from the White House.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Mostly I'm just trying to understand what he has done to earn some of this staunch loyalty from his supporters. I just don't get it.... I have yet to see a single politician that would get that kind of loyalty from me.
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A lot of people did vote for him. Tens of millions. You and I might not agree fully with his agenda, but those tens of millions do.

If he's losing support from them, my read is they're pissed he's not accomplishing MORE.
 
Natebishop3 said:
The Shadow Government!
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Well, it's clear that there are people who are unelected and who serve in agencies like the NSA, FBI, CIA, etc., for decades. It's also clear that they would vote for one candidate or another.

The substantial number of leaks sure looks like they're from people with access to top secret information and documents. Who else would it be?
 
Denny Crane said:
Your knowledge of the law is astounding.

A grand jury is required for him to be able to issue subpoenas. Nothing else to read into it.
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Yes, and? That had no relevance to what I said nor did it contradict what I said in any way. A grand jury is one of the most powerful tools an investigation has and it's generally only used when there's significant basis for investigation. Grand juries aren't convened trivially when the prosecutor in charge believes there's no merit.
 
Denny Crane said:
A lot of people did vote for him. Tens of millions. You and I might not agree fully with his agenda, but those tens of millions do.

If he's losing support from them, my read is they're pissed he's not accomplishing MORE.
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I think that's Nate's point, Denny. They voted for his agenda, which included claims of near-immediate results. However, those promised near-immediate results don't seem to have actually materialized (at least from my observation).

So the question isn't, "Why did people support Trump initially," so much as, "What has PapaD done since taking office to deserve their continuing support?" That is to say, has he actually delivered any of the agenda for which people voted (I acknowledge that it's possible that I've missed something significant), and if not, why are said people remaining so steadfast in support of him?
 
This entire process is bogus. Simply started as perverse entertainment for the losers.

If Mueller is investigating Flinn for wrong doings involving Turkey, why isn't Mueller reporting to Sessions? He only reused himself from Russian investigates.

If Mueller is investigating Trump, Why? Comey said Trump was not under investigation.

If the assistant AG and Mueller decided to investigate Trump, Why? The President and the American people have a right to know.

If the Mueller is using a Grand Jury to investigate Trump, Why? They can't Indict the President!, Mueller can't put the President on trial!.

It's all a sideshow for the losers.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I think that's Nate's point, Denny. They voted for his agenda, which included claims of near-immediate results. However, those promised near-immediate results don't seem to have actually materialized (at least from my observation).

So the question isn't, "Why did people support Trump initially," so much as, "What has PapaD done since taking office to deserve their continuing support?" That is to say, has he actually delivered any of the agenda for which people voted (I acknowledge that it's possible that I've missed something significant), and if not, why are said people remaining so steadfast in support of him?
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Most of the delay has been Congress, the Republican Congress reversing their position on issues, like failing to repeal Obama Care.
 
I just don't think he wants the job. I thought, even before he won, that he got caught up in winning. Now he's President and he doesn't actually want to do the work.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/04/politics/donald-trump-vacation-obama/index.html

Trump's vacation, as The Washington Post's Philip Bump notes, is twice as long as the vacation President Barack Obama took to Martha's Vineyard in his first year in office -- and will mean Trump has spent 53 "leisure" days through August 2017 as compared to 15 for Obama through August 2009.
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http://www.kvia.com/news/politics/at-200day-mark-trump-nominations-still-lag/600815694

As of August 4, when the Senate left town for its August recess, Trump has nominated 277 people for key posts, has had 124 confirmed, and has withdrawn eight of the nominations, according to CNN's tracker.

The Partnership for Public Service has identified 577 executive branch positions as being particularly essential -- and Trump has only successfully filled about a fifth of them.
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MarAzul said:
Most of the delay has been Congress, the Republican Congress reversing their position on issues, like failing to repeal Obama Care.
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Trump was supposed to be a unique deal-maker who could force everyone to the table and make them agree to his agenda through incredible negotiating power.
 
MarAzul said:
If Mueller is investigating Flinn for wrong doings involving Turkey, why isn't Mueller reporting to Sessions? He only reused himself from Russian investigates.
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That would defeat the purpose of an Independent Counsel. Maybe Trump shouldn't have fired Comey?

MarAzul said:
If Mueller is investigating Trump, Why? Comey said Trump was not under investigation.
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Mueller is not Comey. Comey told Trump he was not under investigation at the time. Didn't say he would never be under investigation. In fact, Comey didn't want to announce that Trump was not under investigation, because if he later became under investigation, he would have to correct himself.

MarAzul said:
If the assistant AG and Mueller decided to investigate Trump, Why? The President and the American people have a right to know.
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Sorry, they don't announce what's going on in the investigation, just like the police don't announce why they are investigating someone until they got the goods.

MarAzul said:
If the Mueller is using a Grand Jury to investigate Trump, Why? They can't Indict the President!, Mueller can't put the President on trial!.
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If they find enough to prosecute then it is up to Congress to start impeachment proceedings. Maybe they will find something on Trump. Maybe they won't. It seems like you are afraid they will find something.
 
I don't think I have ever heard of a Republican President claiming that a Republican Congress was standing in his way....
 
MarAzul said:
Most of the delay has been Congress, the Republican Congress reversing their position on issues, like failing to repeal Obama Care.
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Fair enough on Obamacare, although one could easily argue that if Trump and his team had drafted a suitable replacement that the Republican majority could support, that delay wouldn't have occurred; and if a replacement wasn't realistic, he shouldn't have promised an immediate repeal if he didn't have the necessary congressional support to deliver on that promise.

That said, aside from the promised repeal of the ACA (which I still presume will occur eventually), would you be willing to list a couple other significant agenda items you would say Congress is responsible for delaying?
 
Natebishop3 said:
I don't think I have ever heard of a Republican President claiming that a Republican Congress was standing in his way....
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Hell! They are standing in their own way. They promised to repeal, voted before to repeal and now renege when they actually have a President that will sign.
 
MarAzul said:
If the Mueller is using a Grand Jury to investigate Trump, Why? They can't Indict the President!, Mueller can't put the President on trial!.
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Grand juries aren't just for indictments. They give broader power for subpoenas to compel access to documents or sworn testimonies.
 
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